As news from the SHOT Show breaks, I see that Winchester has introduced the 350 Legend cartridge. It is basically a 223 case blown out to a straight wall case and loaded with polymer tipped 35 caliber bullets. It looks like a 450 Bushmaster, except smaller. It is very reminiscent of the old 351 Winchester lengthened with a tipped bullet. It's available in the XPR rifle and should work in an Ar-15 platform with he right magazine. I gather it's intended for those states, like Louisiana, that require a straight wall case of 35 caliber or bigger for primitive hunting. It would be bad news in an AR style pistol or carbine for home defense. The new cartridges never cease to amaze me! Bob! 8)
Another new cartridge from Winchester
- Thread starter rangerbob
- Start date
Three50seven
Buckeye
From what I've read about it, it's essentially a rimless .357 Maximum. I can see it being an effective AR cartridge for hogs and deer. If it takes hold and becomes fairly mainstream like the 300 BLK did, I wouldn't mind having a rifle chambered in it.
Well, the old .38 "Super Cooper" (also based on the .223 case) was basically a .357 Mag in a 1911-sized package, so a little more case might well put you into .357 Max territory.Three50seven said:
I wonder why no one came up with it before? :?
Since I already reload 357 Maximums, changing to a 223 shell holder should make loading the 350 Legend a snap with the appropriate bullets. I suspect CFE Black or AA1680 might be the powder of choice and I use 1680 for the Maximum. Bob!! :wink:
gewehrfreund
Buckeye
yepTenbore said:
roofinspector
Single-Sixer
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I suspect as others that the new cartridge is aimed at the semi-auto rifle market, in particular the AR15 length.
Not a new idea, but finally has come to more exposure. I see that Starline is offering 223 basic brass for the wildcatters, a natural for the new one probably. Kinda a whisper mag.
35 cal has always been a favorite of some folks. Might be a nice feral pig gun if you have some of them on the place. One would think fairly light recoil, so repeat shots might be feasible at the right time.
A gunshop nearby has a 351 from the days of yore, might have to take another looksee. It has already claimed some hurts from a casual looker while closing the action..............
As far as being obsolete, for some never has been, the components are in great supply. Factory ammo might be a moot point for a lot of people that likes the size.
Not a new idea, but finally has come to more exposure. I see that Starline is offering 223 basic brass for the wildcatters, a natural for the new one probably. Kinda a whisper mag.
35 cal has always been a favorite of some folks. Might be a nice feral pig gun if you have some of them on the place. One would think fairly light recoil, so repeat shots might be feasible at the right time.
A gunshop nearby has a 351 from the days of yore, might have to take another looksee. It has already claimed some hurts from a casual looker while closing the action..............
As far as being obsolete, for some never has been, the components are in great supply. Factory ammo might be a moot point for a lot of people that likes the size.
At that price, it won't be long before barrels and complete uppers become available. Being based on the 223, it ought to work in standard magazines straight away. I would not be surprised to see it in the American rifle with a short barrel like the 450 Bushmaster. Bob!! :D
Well, I did a little research. The 350 Legend is not listed at SAAMI yet, but I'm sure WW is working on that. There is a wildcat round called the 357 Max AR that is probably very close to being the same as the 350 Legend. AR barrels are available for that round and it uses the standard AR magazine. This may turn out to be an interesting cartridge if the factory ammo is priced right and if one can use either modified(expanded) 223 brass or Starline unformed basic new brass. Bob!! :D
Maybe it will kill off the 300BLK? Aside from a heaver bullet and more muzzle energy it looks ballistically inferior to the 300, way fewer bullet choices in 35.
But we will need to get some real ballistics and load data to see. Without the subsonic loads this may not be competitive with the 300. Looks like there is a subsonic load though. Obviously a PC C load only. The 357max failed as a pistol load for good reasons so it's unlikely we will see a companion rifle/pistol pair unless you count those but ugly AR types with 9" barrels. The XPR looks nice but is hardly a PCC.
This looks like a legislative cartridge aimed at states which give preference to straight sided cartridges. Will it make it given the heavy competition?
But we will need to get some real ballistics and load data to see. Without the subsonic loads this may not be competitive with the 300. Looks like there is a subsonic load though. Obviously a PC C load only. The 357max failed as a pistol load for good reasons so it's unlikely we will see a companion rifle/pistol pair unless you count those but ugly AR types with 9" barrels. The XPR looks nice but is hardly a PCC.
This looks like a legislative cartridge aimed at states which give preference to straight sided cartridges. Will it make it given the heavy competition?
Another update, this time from WW's website. There are to be 5 different loadings to include (1) 145 fmj White box, (2) 150 Deer Season Extreme Point (3) 160 Power Max Bonded (4) 180 Power Point, and (5) 265 open tip Super Suppressed. Obviously WW has thought this out and was not a last minute deal. Case length is 1.71". Bob! :wink:
This looks like a straightforward administrative cartridge designed for Ohio, Michigan, and a few other states where straight walked cartridges are the only ones allowed or are given some advantages. There is a lot of competition here from modern pistol cartridges as well as traditional cartridges made popular by the Cowboy Action events. I doubt that anyone with an existing rifle or pistol in one of these will replace it with this.
We still need real ballistics data, but what little Winchester has published indicated the 350 is solidly aimed at these restricted states.
I wish Winchester luck but I don't see much point to the 350 legend for most of us.
We still need real ballistics data, but what little Winchester has published indicated the 350 is solidly aimed at these restricted states.
I wish Winchester luck but I don't see much point to the 350 legend for most of us.
For those who think the 350 Legend won't fly, I wonder how it can be explained how the 300 blk became so popular? The 350 should be a better cartridge in all aspects. I wouldn't be surprised if the 350 makes the 300 blk obsolete. With hot loads it would be capable of taking down brown bear, and in light loads with a heavy bullet could be subsonic.
I got a 300BLK to play with subsonic and a supressor. It's in an Oly upper I got cheap when they went out of business. It's a fun plinking and target cartridge, suppressed it is great. Neighbors don't even know I'm shooting. I've used it some with the light supersonic loads on varmets ( coyote and hogs). It works fine and would be good for deer. I wouldn't use it suppressed beyond 100y or on deer beyond 150y. That looks like the 350 has more energy-not really needed. I'd hesitate to consider either cartridge for anything heavier than deer. For home defense the 300BLK is just right no real worries about over penetration and collateral dammage, the 350 is too much of a good thing.
I don't think the 350 will be a real success but hopefully Winchester knows what they are doing.
Given the number of 300BLK guns out there I don't see where the 350 adoption will make much difference even if it's a big success.
I don't think the 350 will be a real success but hopefully Winchester knows what they are doing.
Given the number of 300BLK guns out there I don't see where the 350 adoption will make much difference even if it's a big success.
The things the .350 has going for it, if the AR crowd takes to it: can use a standard BCG and magazines in an AR (just like the .300AAC).
150gr at just over 2300 fps on Winchester's website, so not bad in factory loads, can maybe do better with hand-loads.
150gr at just over 2300 fps on Winchester's website, so not bad in factory loads, can maybe do better with hand-loads.
One of the biggest problems with the 350 is bullets. When I look in the Hornady manual there are loads for 30 different bullets, similar cartridges to the 350 show loads for 3. So likely the 350 will be very limited in bullet selection compared to the 300! From the information available Winchester may have As many as 3 new bullets for the 350.
Hornady has a 110gr at 2400fps as a not real hot load. Pretty similar to the factory Winchester. The ballistic coefficient will make a difference even at 200y.
Hornady has a 110gr at 2400fps as a not real hot load. Pretty similar to the factory Winchester. The ballistic coefficient will make a difference even at 200y.
The .450 Bushmaster came out... and nobody really cared. It was over shadowed by the .450 SOCOM and the .50 Beowulf. It was pretty much DOA.
BUT NOW... 450 Bushmaster rifles are selling like hotcakes. In what? Bot actions and single shots. Selling to whom? Hunters in states that are allowing people to hunt with rifles, as long as they are straight walled cases of a minimum length. And that's your target market... and of course people who just like to buy new stuff. (the people who really keep the firearms industry going)
"Be careful of the man with only one gun, he'll put you out of business." ;)
BUT NOW... 450 Bushmaster rifles are selling like hotcakes. In what? Bot actions and single shots. Selling to whom? Hunters in states that are allowing people to hunt with rifles, as long as they are straight walled cases of a minimum length. And that's your target market... and of course people who just like to buy new stuff. (the people who really keep the firearms industry going)
"Be careful of the man with only one gun, he'll put you out of business." ;)
CMMG has already announced rifles and uppers for the 350 Legend. They use a special 5 and 10 round magazine. Winchester advertises that the 350 has a rebated rim, unlike the 223/5.56 which as a rim just slightly larger than the case just forward of the extractor groove. I examined photos of the cartridge on WW's web site and it appears that the 350 does have a rebated rim and the body of the case is slightly larger than a 223 case just forward of the extractor groove. If so using 223 brass will not work. Of course this is all guess work until the 350 dimensions are published by SAAMI or some factory 350 ammo is examined. I suspect this to be the case as CMMG has special mags for the round. I doubt that anything will be available until at least summer anyway. I am surely not going to pay $1300+ for a #1 so chambered, but I might build an upper if standard magazines work with the 350. Bob!! 8)
So far this is too much sound and fury signifying nothing. There are no real ballistics nor cartridge specs.
All we really know is the 350 is intended for use where straight wall cartridges have a legal advantage. It's for hunting deer sized game at 200y or less. What it turns out to be good for is TBD!
All we really know is the 350 is intended for use where straight wall cartridges have a legal advantage. It's for hunting deer sized game at 200y or less. What it turns out to be good for is TBD!
35 Rem ballistics in a straight walled cartridge opens up a lot of possibilities. CMMG is already offering an AR in 350L, I'm sure other uppers and barrels will follow.
Case length for the rimless 350L is 1.71" . Case length for the old rimmed 357 Maximum was 1.605
Don't forget that the 450 BM took off because it is legal in states where straight walled cartridges are legal for deer. In this case hunting is what drove the market. I'm sure the 350L will do as well. As for bullet selection, there are a lot of possibilities available in .357/.358, anything from pistol to rifle bullets.
Case length for the rimless 350L is 1.71" . Case length for the old rimmed 357 Maximum was 1.605
Don't forget that the 450 BM took off because it is legal in states where straight walled cartridges are legal for deer. In this case hunting is what drove the market. I'm sure the 350L will do as well. As for bullet selection, there are a lot of possibilities available in .357/.358, anything from pistol to rifle bullets.
Winchester reports that the 350 Legend is legal to hunt with in 47 states. I read a report on the CMMG site stating that the 350 does, in fact, use a rebated rim case because WW had to make the case thicker than the 223 case to maintain the high pressure that the round generates. So all those once fired 223 cases will not work to make 350's. My state of Louisiana says nothing about case design for primitive season, but mandates 35 caliber or larger and a single shot with an exposed hammer. Thousands of Handi Rifles have been sold in 35 Whelen, not mention, 357 Magnum, 44 magnum, 444, 45-70, and my 450 Marlin. I could see the Henry single shot in 350 Legend as a viable hunting rifle, as well as the Handi Rifle if it ever returns to the market. We'll see! Bob!! 8)
rangerbob said:
There is a guy on one of my local forums who has made a wildcat out of 223 cases using .357 cal bullets. It is virtually identical to the 350L in case length and ballistics. He's been hunting with it in an AR15 for 3 years and is 5 for 5 on deer (he made one for his son as well). It remains to be seen if 223/556 cases can me used.
