Aggravated at Ford

[blume357]

I grew up a GMC 'kid' but then for the last 20+ years have been driving Fords for both work and pleasure (not counting my wife's Porsche )

Speaking of my Wife, she decided this past year that she did not like riding up to the mountains in my 18 year old little Ford Ranger... not comfortable and we needed a new 'family' car for us and the two dogs and all our stuff, well actually mostly my stuff when we go on a road trip. So, we both decided on the Ford Flex, which contrary to the name is not some new hybrid car that can also run on electricity or high alcohol gas... but is just basically a cross between an SUV and a station wagon. We can't afford new and went with used... actually a 2009 (first year they came out) with fairly low millage. Ended up with the 'limited' addition which means it has almost all the bells and whistles they can put on a car.... including all wheel drive... and so far most has been pretty good...

Until: Last weekend we go up the mountain house... car gets us there great.... and then the next day I head into town to buy food.... this mountain house is up a 2 mile one lane mostly gravel/dirt/rock road.... on the way down I don't see a rock and some how catch the side of the front left tire with it and blow out the side wall.... limp down to a kind of flat spot and change it for the fake tire they now include. Let me say an all wheel drive vehicle with a computer that controls everything does not like those fake spare tires.... I finally find a 19" 235/55? tire to make it home on and that calms the computer down and the car stops handling like a 5ton truck.

So, I decide the thing to do since I need to buy two new front tires and the other front one is practically brand new is to just get a real 5th wheel/rim and put that good one on it and have a real spare.... like all cars had when I was growing up... First problem with that plan.... my tire guy says he can't really get a deal on wheels and just call the Ford place.... So, I do... price for a wheel for a 2009 Ford Flex... $975! (with out tax).... the guy at the Ford parts place gives me the name of a place near by that deals in reconditioned ones.... I call and get a price of $225... still nuts in my mind for a damn wheel but at least 'doable'.... I get two new tires for the front and have them put the good 'used' one in the back.... Well here's the real deal... I'm cleaning out the back of the Flex yesterday and need to clean some of the road debris from the spare tire well in the back... kind of under the third set of back seats.... So, I look at this area and decide to make sure the real tire will fit in the space. Guess what? A real tire (19" on this model) will not fit in the space for the spare.
sobs...... who designs this kind of stuff?

 

[JFB]

spare tire carrier ...roof rack

 

[ProfessorWes]

At least you actually got a spare tire. The OEMs are increasingly deleting them, to save weight (to help the cars meet increasingly ridiculous fuel economy standards) and keep the initial purchase price down.

My 2012 Hyundai Elantra only came with an air pump and a small container of factory Fix-A-Flat, and the factory "spare tire kit" - a space-saving donut - cost me better than $200. A junkyard wheel and tire wasn't an option at the time I bought mine, since there weren't a whole lot of new-gen Elantras on the road at that point, let alone in the boneyard. Although at least my spare tire well is big enough for a full-size spare, should I pick one up at a later date.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

You changed the tire?????? Old habits are hard to break.

 

[contender]

I feel your pain.
For decades, (over 30 years now,) I have cussed a lot at auto's & trucks. Trying to work on them, or such is a PIA. We used to have a Chevy S-10 Blazer. I went to do a simple transmission fluid & filter change. I had to pull the exhaust manifolds to remove the pan. If they had bent to exhaust 1" to one side, a much easier change. An old girlfriend, (1986) had a Nissian, needed a clutch. Had to pull the engine. PIA.
So, for decades, I've had a saying;
"One of these days, I'm gonna be in a social situation, and I'm gonna ask a guy what he does for a living. And when he says; "I'm a automotive engineer!" When the silly SOB wakes up in the hospital, I'm gonna be there,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, to show him what happened,,,,,,,,,, AGAIN!'

Well, it finally happened.
Just this past January, I was in Las Vegas, sitting at a blackjack table, enjoying some down time from SHOT. A 28 yr old, in good shape, (about 200 lbs of muscle & youth,) was playing at my table. Being social, we were all conversing at the table. He mentioned he was an engineer, from NYC. He had brought his brother to Vegas for his 21st B-day. I don't know where his brother was. A few minutes later, being polite, I asked, "Who do you work for?" His reply; "GM. I work on the Silverado's."

The very first thought through my head was; "I don't have enough bail money & no friends in this town. With all the security & cameras, I'm toast."

I asked him; "Do you work on your own vehicles?" He replied; "I do my oil changes."

I then told him my long standing comment about engineers. I also told him I felt that before they finalized any design, they needed to get their hands dirty & ask the mechanics who do repairs if they could make it "repair friendly" before they finalize it.

He said nothing. So I continued.

I told him that I felt as if they didn't want anybody to be able to do simple maintenance on a vehicle, and have to spend a war pension taking a vehicle to a factory authorized repair center. I felt it was a rip-off.

He still said nothing. And about 5 minutes later, he'd cashed out & left.

The next morning when I called Miss Penny, she asked how I was. I told her "Good, I didn't get thrown in jail last night." She cautiously asked; "Ok, what happened?" All I said was; "I met an automotive engineer."

She broke up laughing!



I understand the desire to build anything AND not spending money than necessary. It's called business. But to design & build something & NOT look at normal maintenance jobs, to where the design accommodates these normal things is absurd. If you build a vehicle to where normal maintenance can be performed easily, the vehicles get the maintenance AND last a lot longer. You build a good reputation with the customer, who becomes a loyal buyer & supporter of the brand. To design a car, with a computer, to where a smaller emergency tire causes computer issues, you SHOULD provide a proper tire for an emergency. As well as the space to carry such a tire.

Of course, they (the companies) do not want us working on our vehicles. They want us to depend upon them to get anything done. They want us to be forced to buy parts & such from them, at huge inflated prices. They want the vehicles to be "factory authorized repaired" so they can gouge up for any work.

Blume,,,, I feel your pain!

 

[Dan in MI]

Let's just say even in the business we want to kill the PACKAGING engineers. Design for servicability seems to have died.

Don't throw those that work on cars (powertrain, chassis, brake, etc...) in the same boat. Just last week on a development trip I had an issue with a prototype car. Being miles from anywhere I prayed I could get at, and fix, the issue. Luckily, I could get at it and a little bubble gum and tape had me on the road again.

 

[Mike J]

Blume I understand. My wife traded her Father for a 2004 Explorer. When we got it I was told he had just had a shop go through the rear end. They said the noise from the back was just tire noise so I never looked at it too close. This past week after new tires were put on it the noise was still there. I wound up changing both the wheel bearings on the back. It was $220 for the new bearings & hubs & I had to pay a shop to press the assembly for all of it apart & back together with a hydraulic press. I did manage to save a couple hundred dollars by doing the work myself but that is the hardest I have ever worked to replace a wheel bearing.

 

[mjpchief]

Before I die I just want 10 minutes in a locked room with an automotive engineer and a ball bat. Then I can die happy. And it ain't just Ford either.

 

[bogus bill]

If you think the process of car design/parts etc is bad dont get into owning a airplane. I am not talking a complex airplane but having a old simple one. Unless you are a certified and blessed by the government, you cant do next to anything. In a way its like having to pay vigerish to the mafia mob boss.

 

[graygun]

That's why my "new" truck is a '81 C-10. I've done some work on Hondas and they are a lot easier to access components than modern US stuff.

 

[bogus bill]

I probably am the least mechanically minded or business understanding guy on this site. Yet I think I understand the master game plan with the manufacture`s. It`s not just to sell you a car but to build a product that once sold will bring in a steady stream of revenue on it. If they built a simple, reliable vehicle that anyone could work on without special tools and replacement parts that you could get from ace hardware they would go under in a very short time.
Many years ago I had a Harley that had a problem with the alternator. I worked at lockheed and knew a electronic engineer. He came over and looked at it and said it`s just this 10 cent diode, I will get one and fix it for you. He found out in his catalogs at work or wherever that the Harley Davidson company had some legality in the catalogs that his sources couldnt sell it!
I had to buy a new one for hundreds when a 10 cent part could have fixed it!

 

[Jeepnik]

And folks wonder why my new car is my 1982 CJ-8. I have had a succession of "new" trucks for work, but none has lasted near as many miles as the Jeep.

The old saying "they don't make things like they used to" is very true. I think it started with disposable diapers, and now we are up to disposable cars. Give folks a chance and we'll be up to disposable people before long. Oh wait, some folks think we already are.

 

[gtxmonte]

I grew up a GMC 'kid' but then for the last 20+ years have been driving Fords for both work and pleasure (not counting my wife's Porsche )

Speaking of my Wife, she decided this past year that she did not like riding up to the mountains in my 18 year old little Ford Ranger... not comfortable and we needed a new 'family' car for us and the two dogs and all our stuff, well actually mostly my stuff when we go on a road trip. So, we both decided on the Ford Flex, which contrary to the name is not some new hybrid car that can also run on electricity or high alcohol gas... but is just basically a cross between an SUV and a station wagon. We can't afford new and went with used... actually a 2009 (first year they came out) with fairly low millage. Ended up with the 'limited' addition which means it has almost all the bells and whistles they can put on a car.... including all wheel drive... and so far most has been pretty good...

Until: Last weekend we go up the mountain house... car gets us there great.... and then the next day I head into town to buy food.... this mountain house is up a 2 mile one lane mostly gravel/dirt/rock road.... on the way down I don't see a rock and some how catch the side of the front left tire with it and blow out the side wall.... limp down to a kind of flat spot and change it for the fake tire they now include. Let me say an all wheel drive vehicle with a computer that controls everything does not like those fake spare tires.... I finally find a 19" 235/55? tire to make it home on and that calms the computer down and the car stops handling like a 5ton truck.

So, I decide the thing to do since I need to buy two new front tires and the other front one is practically brand new is to just get a real 5th wheel/rim and put that good one on it and have a real spare.... like all cars had when I was growing up... First problem with that plan.... my tire guy says he can't really get a deal on wheels and just call the Ford place.... So, I do... price for a wheel for a 2009 Ford Flex... $975! (with out tax).... the guy at the Ford parts place gives me the name of a place near by that deals in reconditioned ones.... I call and get a price of $225... still nuts in my mind for a damn wheel but at least 'doable'.... I get two new tires for the front and have them put the good 'used' one in the back.... Well here's the real deal... I'm cleaning out the back of the Flex yesterday and need to clean some of the road debris from the spare tire well in the back... kind of under the third set of back seats.... So, I look at this area and decide to make sure the real tire will fit in the space. Guess what? A real tire (19" on this model) will not fit in the space for the spare.
sobs...... who designs this kind of stuff?

In no way defending the way some things are done, but in defense of the question about the Flex..........the answer is pretty simple.......It WON'T fit. Depending on the level of Flex you buy, the tire is anywhere from 27"-30" tall, mounted and inflated. For the tire well to be big enough to hold a tire that tall, would need to be 36" or so, or you could never wrestle it out of there. So why not make it that big is the obvious question..........well you could, but then the tire well would basically be as wide as the entire floor pan. Remember, other things besides the tire well have to be under there. If you have the Eco-Boost Flex the exhaust is dead against the tire well on both sides now.....So move the exhaust........where? It has to exit out the rear and run beside the tire well, there is simply no place else to put it.

Space saver spares are nothing new. My 73 Dodge Challenger has a space saver and came that way. Put a full size tire in the trunk, that came on the car and it would take up the whole trunk. The bigger wheels and tires get on new vehicles, the less chance you are going to have a full size spare. I would venture a guess that about the only vehicle these days that DOES have a full size spare is likely trucks, or cars that come equipped with relatively small tires. You want a full size spare, or room to carry something..........seldom can you have both

 

[Don Lovel]

"aint no such thing as a cheap Jeep" that being said, my 1998 Cherokee XJ is rebuildable, high quality aftermarket and NOS & OEM parts plentiful. 4.0 inline 6 the last good motor anyone built as far as I am concerned.
I need to go ahead and build another engine and trans combo just to be there available if I need them. Mine has a Turbo 350 GM trans, thank God, friend of mine is spending money this week on his 2014 Dodge because, Dodge Automatic Transmission technology, quality control apparently influenced by Lucas Electric.

 

[Mobuck]

Lots of things look better on paper than in practice-that should be the byline of engineers. Long on education and short on common sense describes many of those folks. I should know, I went to the same school and took the same classes.
I've fought with equipment designed by some sort of masochistic demon engineers most of my life and agree that things don't always come out as expected(or hoped for).
Regarding replacement wheels, I've had more problems trying to find good, straight wheels lately than ever before. When scrap metal prices went up, it seems the first thing to go was alloy rims.

 

[Fox Mike]

I can totally understand our frustration. The last few cars we have had had the 'donut' tires for spares and not nearly enough room to install a REAL tire and wheel.

 

[opos]

A little side note on spares...I have a 95 3/4 ton 4wd big block Suburban...huge old rolling tank with 207K on it..and it can be repaired and worked on by a "normal" person with some mechanical skills...not a degree in advanced computer science.

Now for the story on the tires...I went to a major tire outlet to get 4 new tires. The spare had never been on the ground so didn't even mention it..got the 4 tires and a guarantee and free rotate and balance and road hazard warranty.

Went in about 5000 miles later to get the free rotation and balance...I asked that they put 45# all around and please check the air in the spare..the guy came in and said "your spare is over 10 years old so we have to replace it...told them no way...just leave it...they said they could not check the air and they had taken it out to check the air and now it's out, on the ground behind the vehicle and they refused to put it back in the Suburban and lock it back down...they also ripped the cloth cover and lost part of the locking device...We had a version of the Alamo in the driveway..I blew up and called the California Dept of automotive repair from the tire place...they got the manager on the phone and soon the tire was back in the vehicle and I was on my way.

Seems the tire dealers and the manufacturers have decided that tires that are over a certain age (think it's now 7 or 8 years) decided that tires of that age are a time bomb and the liability of even touching them is a big no no....I understand cracked and weather checked old trailer tires, etc but no way am I going to buy that on a spare that has never even seen sunlight nor been on the ground....I've had 3 sets of tires on that Suburban and never before was the spare an "issue"..but all of a sudden it's a big deal and nothing more than a way to sell more tires.

My little shade tree mechanic that does my work (I'm 78 so no more car work for me) has no issues with things like that..he just does what I ask, and I pay him for it.

So old time spares can have problems too.

 

[gramps]

I believe Chevy brought out the Monza 2. To change the spark plugs required the engine to be removed! Engineers goofed.
gramps

 

[pete44ru]

.

I'm keeping my (bought new) 1998 Ranger, with the (then new) high-performance 4-cyl engine that has 2 spark plugs per cylinder, forever.

I'm currently at 99,500 original miles (I change the oil & filter every 2500 miles), and am still on the original clutch, sparkplugs, & exhaust system; a 2nd set of sneakers; a 2nd battery; and a 3rd set of brake pads/shoes.

The frame/body has zero rust, since I personally undercoated everything in sight from beneath (floorpan, inside the fenders, all frame & suspension parts, etc, etc), the same day I bought it.

The only issues I've had are a snapped front stabilizer strut (replaced), a (so far) small leak in the power steering rack (I added a sealant to the PS fluid), a broken rear leaf spring shackle (replaced on one side), and rusted-out brake lines (which I replaced @ 14years/80,000 miles).

(My Son is a parts mangler @ a local Ford dealership, which keeps repair costs to a minimum)

The truck turned out to be an excellent $9500 (1998) purchase.

.

 

[blume357]

I'm beginning to think these over engineered cars are really meant to be disposable....

The other item they 'saved' on with the Ford Flex is the gas cap.... there isn't one.

 

[contender]

mjpchief,,,, you & I are on the same page!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I'll add I'd like to bring in the idiots who pushed this idea of making us only be able to take stuff to a dealership for repairs as well. As noted above, they want us to have to use their services.

 

[Bull Barrel]

"aint no such thing as a cheap Jeep" that being said, my 1998 Cherokee XJ is rebuildable, high quality aftermarket and NOS & OEM parts plentiful. 4.0 inline 6 the last good motor anyone built as far as I am concerned.
I need to go ahead and build another engine and trans combo just to be there available if I need them. Mine has a Turbo 350 GM trans, thank God, friend of mine is spending money this week on his 2014 Dodge because, Dodge Automatic Transmission technology, quality control apparently influenced by Lucas Electric.

That transmission in your Jeep isn't a TH350 but is an Aisin-Warner AW-4. Borg-Warner sold its holdings in the company to Toyota around 1987.

 

[gtxmonte]

I'm beginning to think these over engineered cars are really meant to be disposable....

The other item they 'saved' on with the Ford Flex is the gas cap.... there isn't one.

That is so idiots won't leave it loose and then take it to the dealer when the "check engine" light comes on...........LOL!!!

My company supplied vehicle is a Flex. I really like it. Rides good, can haul LOTS of junk and has adequate power. Mileage is marginal, but they pay for the gas, so it's all good...........LOL!!! About 60k on mine so far.........zero issues.

 

[SATCOM]

Boy, it must be beat up Engineers week. This post and Engineers need "hands on training"

I have never met an Engineer, but how did we get to the moon? Bunch of Engineers and brave men. Through the years a large portion of these brave people have been Engineers.

We (USA) sent an object completely out of the solar system (Voyager) with engineers designing, building, and controlling it all these 60+ years years.

Bill Ruger was an Engineer?

All of the old and new military and civilian aircraft we love were designed by engineers.
Aircraft some times have letters after the model such as B-29G. Does the G not infer 6 different major changes and improvements made by Engineers.

Newer automobiles of today are 10X better engineered than say a 57 Chevy. In 50s what automobile manufacture told you 100,000 miles warranty is standard? Would a 1951 Chevy with GM's best engine at the time (6 cylinder stove bolt) make 100,000 like new ones? Sure possible but how many spark plugs, belts, generators, light bulbs, points, clutches, brake pads/cylinders, and condensers would have been changed getting there?

Engineers were blamed for Hubble needing glasses but lens grinding company made a mistake and kept the data secret.

If an Engineer designs a space for a max of 10 cow patties, why would a user complain he can't get 20 cow patties in that space?

SATCOM

 

[blume357]

I wasn't complaining about the engineers but the designers.... maybe the same or maybe different....

If practicality says make the space for 15 patties and the defuses decide that most folks don't know what to do with a cow patty in the first place and so space for 10 is just fine....

I remember having to rent a Ryder van a number of years back for work loaded up a ton of tools and went out and did the best I could with what I have.... after a day or so... I started to look for the spare tire.... there was not one and so I called Ryder... they informed me that if I had a flat I was supposed to call Ryder.... this was before cellphones were common and I was often out in the boonies where it might take 30minutes to walk to a house where someone would let you use the phone.. then wait for hours for 'Ryder' to show up? I don't think so, I took that van back and rented one local.

 

[Bull Barrel]

Why wasn't the G model the A?

 

[Dan in MI]

Why wasn't the G model the A?

Have you ever made anything?


Was your first design 100% perefect, or did you find an unintended consequence, or an interaction that was more or less than origianlly thought, or just flat out find something that was just a tad better than the original idea?

 

[Selena]

My uncle had a standard line for when a piece of equipment broke down and the offending part was in an impossible place to get to... "this could be one of Ford's better ideas."

 

[jeffnles1]

Wow, changed your own tire and bought a real sized spare. I bet you're on all kinds of government lists now. What are you, some crazy prepper looking forward to Armageddon?

 

[Jeepnik]

Boy, it must be beat up Engineers week. I have never met an Engineer, but how did we get to the moon?

As the old saying goes, "Even a blind squirrel finds an acorn now and then".

The problem isn't engineers. It's young engineers. They have done nothing, and even less right, yet know everything (just ask them).

I work with some really good engineers daily. None is under 50. Eventually today's young engineers will learn the one lesson that isn't taught in college. "IF THEORY AND REALITY DO NOT COINCIDE, REALITY AIN'T WRONG."