7 mm Mauser (7x57mm) versus .275 Rigby

[Paul B]

Many interesting points here. Not too sure what the 7MM Rem. mag. can be pushed to. I only have one, a Ruger #1B I bought to add to my collection. It's one of the Bicentennial models and I only ran one box of ammo through it to get an idea of how it shoots. I like hunting with #1's but the ranch I do all my hunting on these days does not allow the use of single shot rifle. I've take four elk off the place; every one a one shot kill and they still won't make an exception. :x
My custom 7x57 has a 1 8n 8.5 twist, the Ruger #1A 1in 9,5 as close as I can figure out and I think the M70 is 1 in 8.5 as close as I can measure.
One problem with working up higher than published loads for the 7x57 is the variance in throat length. The Ruger and custom have the "standard throat for the 175 gr. round nose and when I bought the M70 I had my gunsmith check it out and told him if it was different than the "standard" to just throat it out to spec. I've used 30 caliber somethings for most of my hunting career and only in the past 7 or 8 years started playing with other calibers. Did a little with the .270 in the mid seventies for a couple of hunts then back to the good old 30-06. Messed with a 7x57 in 1973, shot a deer which was never recovered. Gave me an instant dislike for the Federal 175 gr. round nose, the only ammo available in that little Nevada cow town I was living in. Ran with the .308 for quite a while. Got to shoot a lot of rifles in the mid seventies when I was custom loading ammo. Picked up a Ruger #1A in 7x57 which didn't shoot worth spit. Gunsmith did a chamber cast and it had a throat 2.5" long. :shock: Sent the rifle back to Ruger and it came back with a new barrel. Shoots good now. Did a couple of Coues Deer hunts with it but they're hard to find. Back to the .308 for several hunts in the Kaibab. I had an early J.C. Higgins M50 in .270 Win. where they put the notch for the rear sight smack dab in the middle of the chamber :shock: and I was not comfortable with that so had the gun rebarreled to the 7x57 and restocked in a semi-modern European style similar to the Husqvarna "Husky" of the late 1950's. I then found that M70 FWT that I like so well. I had to put a recoil pad on it. Should is a bit messed up from shooting some serious big bore, .404 Jeffery and .416 Rigby, part of my Ruger #1 collection. The .404 isn't too bad but that Rigby will get your attention in a hurry. :roll:
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

If you want to do a meat hunt for elk, I and friends do a cull hunt for a cow elk in New Mexico that is rather reasonable. I hunt with a couple of other Texans that I recommended tis hunt too and one has gone with me three times and the other twice and we're batting 1000 for the hunts. I have a bad knee and can't do the rugged country anymore and on of my partners has had open heart surgery so is pretty much in the same boat as me. buddy #3 went the first time just to shoot an elk and came back for seconds. It's my understanding two more will be added to the group so if you want to give it a try you're more than welcome. This is a less than strenuous hunt designed to remove excess antlerless elk from the ranch which covers 640,000 acres of private land. The amount of hunters at one time on the place is extremely limited and it's a nice deal where you're almost guaranteed meat. I've done four hunts in the last five years and brought home meat every time. My shots have ranged from 100 yards to 350 yards. One of my buddies this year had a 450 yards shot but that's the longest anyone in our group has had to shoot. He'd hit it at a shorter range and it took off running. With elk you keep on shooting till it's down and out. Anyway, if you want more details, PM me and I'll pass on what I have. We do have one hell of a good time and the guide really knows his stuff. Worth the price just for the fun.
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

I agree. That's why I do this cow elk hunt. I was given a bunch of elk meat a few years back that came off a rutting bull. I ate it all but it almost made me swear off elk hunting.
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

Nice thing about this hunt is it's a private land ranch hunt and you deal directly with the outfitter. The game is free ranging as the ranch is 640,000 acres. The weather can be a tad nippy. Due to an improper prescription, my heart got slowed way down and breathing at 9,000 plus MSL was almost impossible. Caused me to get a very nasty case of pneumonia that I'm still having minor problems with. That's the reason I haven't sent my deposit in but I'll be calling Tim, the outfitter with it some time this week. Sure don't want to be left out.
Paul B.

 

[Paul B]

Serious drag about those meds! But, glad you're feeling better to the point that you're ready to reserve a slot! So, is this reserve for next Fall? :wink:

No, the hunts run in December and January. I do my hunt in January as there is a better chance of snow to push the elk down. I'm going to have run out tomorrow and see about a new computer. The one I have is on it's last legs and the printer has died. I can barely do E-mail and go on my favorite sites. The thing gets any slower and I'll die of old age.
Paul B.

 

[oyeme]

I beg to differ. The 7x57 for one thing has a greater case capacity although it's only about two grains higher than the 7-08. The 7-08 starts to run out of room with some of the 160 gr. bullets and in most rifles definitely runs out of room due to magazine space.
I'm not going to give the load but on another site a gentleman had run 150 gr. Nosler Partitions to 2900 plus FPS. :shock: I had doubts so contacted him for the information which he kindly divulged. He used a Winchester M70 Featherweight and as I have one was basically the reason I asked for the data. That rifle is fast becoming a big time favorite with me. I very carefully loaded up a series of loads starting at 10 percent below his maximum chrongraphing at every load level. Did I reach his 2900 plus velocity? Yes, absolutely and with no pressure signs. Perfectly rounded primers. Case head and pressure ring expansion almost non-existent. His accuracy was good but sad to say might was almost usable. My criteria for a hunting load is 1.5" or less at 100 yards. I prefer smaller as we all do but that grouping is more than sufficient to at least 300 yards, maybe more depending on the animal. That velocity level BTW is 100 FPS faster than Remington factory ammo shot from my 24" barreled .280 Remington.
The big problem with the 7x57 is it is loaded to 45,000 C.U.P./50,000 P.S.I. by the factory in deference to the old weak 93 and 95 Mausers still around. The .280 is also no loaded to it's full potential because Remington first brought it out in pump and semi-auto rifles. I have no trouble getting 3010 FPS average with a 150 gr. Nosler PT in my rifle with IMR7828SSC.
I can easily match 7-08 velocities in any of my three 7x57 rifles, the aforementioned M70, a custom based on a 1909 Argentine Mauser with a DWM action, not one of the later ones made in Argentina. The last one, a Ruger #1A shoots just fine. I did once have a Ruger M77 tang safety in 7x57 and accuracy wasn't all that great till I went with 160 to 175 gr. bullets. Those tangers seem to have been plagued with long throats but would shoot the heavier bullets quite well. The throat on my #1 was so long it had to go back to Ruger. It shoots just about everything quite well now. There is a thread going on over on The Firing Line about lawyered loads. All the lawyers on that site, and three's a bunch are denying that loads are being watered down and I'll not argue one way or the other. I do know that some cartridges are NOT loaded to their true potential for one reason or another; the 7x57, .280 Rem. and 30-06 as three prime examples.
I'm not knocking the 7-08. It's a fine cartridge. I might even buy one, one of these years. :lol:
Paul B.

Beg to differ all you want. I've been handloading for almost 30 years and fully understand Lawyered-Down data. It's exactly what you get for 7 X 57mm. Proof of the pudding is actual handload data and I have 2 very good manuals from yesteryear, the Lyman 46th and the SPEER #11. And while the 7 x 57 case may have greater capacity IN WATER, come up with some real-world data that shows higher performance for the 7 x 57. Even in the SPEER #11, there is better data for the 7mm-08 than the .280 REM (or 7mm Express) because Rem. limited the 7mm Express to 50,000 CUP for their pump and auto-loading rifles. When they introduced the 7mm-08 it carried the same pressure rating as its parent cartridge, the .308 Win.

Powder capacity of a cartridge is a non factor in terms of it's operating pressure and that's where the ball-game changes. You simply are not going to find data for the 7 x 57mm, from an established source, that will exceed the performance of the 7mm-08. This while the 08 shares the same advantage of it's parent cartridge, the .308 Win. and the .308 was taking the 7 X 57mm to school well before benchrest and silhouette shooters discovered the virtues of necking down the .308 to 7mm. A shorter action for less mechanical slop.

The 7mm-08 was born from rifle accuracy competition almost 3/4 of a century after the 7 x 57mm Mauser was introduced when NO-ONE used it for long-range accuracy competition. Kinda why I passed on the 6.5 X 284 Norma. It will do anything and then some compared to the .270 Win. when both are loaded to the same pressure max of 54,000 CUP/65,000 PSI. The only drawback, if there is one is that the 6.5 x 284 requires a standard action while the Ackley Improved version of the .260 Rem. does not. Regardless, no mid-bore has earned a greater reputation for accuracy than the 7mm-08 Rem. :wink:

I agree completely that the 7mm-08 is a super cartridge especially when you consider its powder capacity. I bought one of the first Shilen DGAs for that caliber. That was just before Remington made it a factory cartridge in 1980 and in fact was marked 7X308 on the barrel. (Shouldn't have sold that one!) I currently have a Savage that with 22 inch barrel produces 2,915 fps with 140 grain Nosler Accubond and 3,015 fps with the 120 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip. These are average of at least 5 shots, chronographed and no adjustment made for the chrono being about 15 feet from the muzzle of the rifle. Oh and by the way, those two bullets with IMR 4895 as the powder, produce consistent groups of less than .75 inch. In fact, with those bullets and that powder my rifle will easily beat .75 inch 3 shot groups, all day long! Pretty impressive for an inexpensive, light weight (7 lbs including scope) Model 16 sporter!
If anyone here is old enough to remember Ken Waters who wrote a column called "Pet Loads" for Rifle & Handloader magazine for about 20 years, you will find that in his test of the 7mm-08, it was able to achieve the following velocities without any signs of excessive pressure:
115 grain 3,150-3,200 fps
120 grain 3,100
139 grain&
140 grain 2,900
145 grain 2,850
160 grain 2,700
175 grain 2,600
He used the identical established methodology he developed for all of the cartridges he tested in determining pressure limits.
(Check those velocities against the 7X57 MM and you will see why I say the 7mm-08 is such a small but super efficient cartridge.)
This was with 24 inch barrels in his rifles used for the article. He also indicated that in his two 7X57 Mauser rifles (same 24 inch barrel length), he could not reach the same velocities as he did with the two he had in 7mm-08 without excessive pressure signs even though he had to use more powder in the 7X57 due to its case capacity. The 7mm-08 is in my opinion one of the most underrated cartridges of all time, and is ideally suitable for most American game up to the size of elk or moose. I will always have at least one 7mm-08 as my primary hunting rifles and within the limits of the game I mentioned, will not fail me or anyone who uses it properly with good quality bullets.

 

[Paul B]

Although I have never used one, I agree the 7-08 is a fine cartridge. I have also read Ken Waters article on the 7-08 where hatred to compare it vs the 7x57. Good article but remember, Ken Waters is and was a very conservative handloader using case head and pressure ring expansion measurement based on what factory ammo delivered.
The weak factory 7x57 is what he used for the 7x57 while using the greater expansion for the 7-08. I'm seriously thinking of springing for one of those pressure Trace pressure measuring tools to test one of my 7x57 loads pushing a 150 gr. Nosler to 2910 FPS. :shock: Case head and pressure ring measurement from that load are in the same basic area as my stiff .270 Win. Loads. Just have to figure out if I can swing the price of the tool and a lap top to use with it.
Paul B.

 

[Jagdhund]

This has pretty well been hashed over, but the .275 Rigby was the 7X57 loaded with a 140 gr. expanding bullets at higher velocity than the old 173 gr. loads. Jim Corbett used his for leopards and tigers over bait, but went to a .450/400 (if I remember correctly) for stalking man eaters.

It is no big trick to reach 2800+ fps in the 7X57 with 139/140 gr. bullets using published data for the "M-98 Mauser type action".

 

[Paul B]

Somehow, I don't think that 140 gr. load would work too well on a tiger. Leopard maybe to OK depending on the circumstances. I wouldn't go with the 175 gr. load for leopard though. Might not open up properly. Tigers though are heavily muscled and the tougher heavier bullet would be more appropriate. When I had my first 7x57, the only ammo at the hardware store was two boxes of the Federal 175 gr. load so that's what I hunted with. Bullet probably penciled on through the deer without hitting any major bone and the blood trail petered out quickly. The deer was shot at just about 8AM and my wife and I looked till it was too dark to see anymore. The next morning I was back out and found what the coyotes had left over 200 yards from where I'd shot it. I didn't think a solidly hit deer would go that far but as I said earlier, I think the bullet just penciled on though without getting enough resistance to open up.
Paul B.