So I ordered 250 of these cases from ACA, mostly just to satisfy my curiosity, they arrived and looked nice and shiny. Tried them in my Flattop ACP cylinder and they don't quite go all the way in to the rim. SO I resize a few in 45 auto die, and they fall right in, no problem. Next I try putting the sized cases into my OM 45 auto cylinder, and crap, the rim hits the cylinder ratchet and don't go all the way in. I was rather surprised. Anyone else have this happen? Guess its going to be a flattop project only.
45 Cowboy Special
- Thread starter veeman
- Start date
Hondo44
Hawkeye
No I haven't heard of that problem. That would make them stick out quite a bit. How far off are the rims from fitting the cyl ratchet boss... couple of thousands? They fit in all my 45 ACP revolvers but I don't have an old model ACP cyl. Just a new model and S&Ws. Maybe spinning the rims in a 400 grit paper will get them down to size. Are they advertised to work in a single action ACP cyl? I'd give the supplier a call.
DGW1949
Hawkeye
Beings how the centerline of the chambers are the same on both cylinders of the same gun, and beings how both share the same ratchet design, there should be plenty of room for the case rim to clear the ratchet on either.
My first thought was that the case rim diameter of your new brass may be a bit oversized or that it's AOL is a bit too long for an ACP chamber, so you might want to do some measuring there.
If the rim OD checks out OK but the AOL don't, my next step would be to assemble a dummy round with a regular ole roll-crimp and see if it drops into the cylinder right. It does, you aint got a cylinder problem, you've got an application problem.
DGW
My first thought was that the case rim diameter of your new brass may be a bit oversized or that it's AOL is a bit too long for an ACP chamber, so you might want to do some measuring there.
If the rim OD checks out OK but the AOL don't, my next step would be to assemble a dummy round with a regular ole roll-crimp and see if it drops into the cylinder right. It does, you aint got a cylinder problem, you've got an application problem.
DGW
BoggusDeal
Single-Sixer
They aren't designed for Auto cylinders. They are designed for use in a 45 Colt or Schofield cylinder. 45 Auto cylinders aren't cut for cartridges with a rim. The 45 Auto headspaces on the case mouth, not the rim. Try them in their designed purpose and I bet they work fine.
The Cowboy 45 Special was designed for cowboy action shooting to reduce the case capacity of a 45 Colt case to use with lighter charges of powder and reduce the risk of double charging.
The Cowboy 45 Special was designed for cowboy action shooting to reduce the case capacity of a 45 Colt case to use with lighter charges of powder and reduce the risk of double charging.
DGW1949 said:
The ACP cylinders are not the same size, one is from a NM Flattop, and smaller in overall size, the other is from an OM Blackhawk, cylinder is much bigger. The 45 Special brass drops right in the Flattop ACP cylinder. The rim catches on the ratchet of the OM Blackhawk ACP cylinder. The brass will drop right into the 45 Colt OM cylinder, didn't try the Flattop Colt cylinder, as it fits fine in the ACP.
Chuck 100 yd
Hunter
BoggusDeal said:
+1
If the case does not drop in after full length resizing due to length ,but will when roll crimped, those cases need to be trimmed. If you just crimp and shoot without trimming them, when the crimp opens at firing it will open into the chamber throat
And cause a restriction and boost preasures greatly, very possibly to dangerous levels. Stay safe friend.
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DGW1949
Hawkeye
Rclark said:
True that...hence my prior comment about it being an application problem.
Still though, some folks are going to try what they're going to try because somebody else said that it worked for them.
As for the OP and his particular problem goes though, the only two things he can do is either make the 45CS brass fit the ACP cylinder, or make the ACP cylinder fit the 45CS brass.
Me personally, I'd just use the correct (45LC) cylinder and call it good....but hey, that aint what he asked.
DGW
DGW1949
Hawkeye
veeman said:
You are correct that the OM .45 BH has a much larger cylinder than a NM .45 FT.
What I was trying to say though, is that except for their chambering, both cylinders which come with any certain model share common dimensions. In other words, if the .45CS case rim don't hit the ratchet teeth on the 45LC cyl, it shouldn't hit the ratchet of the ACP cylinder either....regardless of "which particular gun" you are trying it in.
Sorry for the confusion.
DGW
BoggusDeal
Single-Sixer
Veeman,
First, I'll say again, the C45S case is not designed to work in a 45 Auto chamber. Nor is the 45 Auto chamber designed to work with a rimmed case.
Second, if you do get them in the cylinder, will they clear the recoil shield?
Lastly, what is your goal here?
First, I'll say again, the C45S case is not designed to work in a 45 Auto chamber. Nor is the 45 Auto chamber designed to work with a rimmed case.
Second, if you do get them in the cylinder, will they clear the recoil shield?
Lastly, what is your goal here?
BoggusDeal
Single-Sixer
Not at all. As I said earlier they were designed to be used in a 45 Colt or Schofield chamber to reduce the case capacity. Shooting really mild loads in a 45 Colt case, with a light bullet and fast burning powder, it is extremely easy to double charge a case. Hence a smaller case. Use them in your 45 Colt cylinders and you'll be very happy with a light load.
The 45 Auto Rim was designed to be used in S&W and Colt double action revolvers to not have to use moon clips. They will not fit in a Ruger single action revolver cylinder without modification to the cylinder.
The 45 Auto Rim was designed to be used in S&W and Colt double action revolvers to not have to use moon clips. They will not fit in a Ruger single action revolver cylinder without modification to the cylinder.
charlesappel
Single-Sixer
The original 45 Cowboy brass was advertised as working in both 45 Colt and 45 ACP revolver chambers.
In 45 Colt chambers, the round headspaces on the case rim.
In 45 ACP revolvers the case headspaces on the case mouth. Since the 45 Cowboy and 45 ACP are the same length, the rim of the 45 Cowboy will stick out slightly. I suggest the following article.
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/45ACP2.htm
In 45 Colt chambers, the round headspaces on the case rim.
In 45 ACP revolvers the case headspaces on the case mouth. Since the 45 Cowboy and 45 ACP are the same length, the rim of the 45 Cowboy will stick out slightly. I suggest the following article.
http://www.hensleygibbs.com/edharris/articles/45ACP2.htm
BoggusDeal
Single-Sixer
From the guy who originally developed the Cowboy 45 Special:
Question: What about loading dies? Updated 12/15/06
Cowboy .45 Special is designed to use ordinary "off the shelf" dies.
Using a .45 Colt shell plate and sizing die, and expander and seat/crimp dies from a .45 ACP or autorim die set.
While any ACP/Autorim dies will work, along with a .45 Colt shell plate, the very best results to date have been achieved using Hornady New Dimension .45 caliber dies no. 546554.
Note Hornady uses the same dies for .45 Colt, ACP, Autorim, and win mag.
They produce a proper roll crimp, and use a sliding bullet guide that aids in seating even very short bullets straight.
The sizing die is also a bit larger than typical ACP dies, which provides proper bullet tension for .452-4 cast bullets, and requires less effort to size and expand.
This makes the press run smoother, and works brass less as well.
Personally, I only neck size fired cases, adjusting the sizer so it resizes the part of the brass where the bullet seats, but not the lower aspect.
Question: What dies will work?
If you already have .45 ACP dies, and don't care to get Hornady dies, your ACP dies will work, together with your .45 Colt shell plate.
BUT, there are ways to make "better" ammo by using a bit more intelligent die setup.
Since we are loading for .45 COLT chambers, which are notoriously roomy (the old SAAMI numbers are sloppy, and chambers cut to SAAMI max are prone to burnt powder blow-by) we need to think about the actual dimensions of our cases if the goal is to limit blow-by, especially at typical CAS levels.
The Cowboy .45 Special has much less blow-by at middle of the road CAS loads, but if you like em reallly light, or load with BP or subs, read on.
One way to help reduce blow-by at low velocity levels is to use a .45 COLT sizer die instead of the slightly smaller ACP sizing die.
Even better is what is known as "neck sizing" our fired brass.
When a case is fired it expands and "bounces" back part way, ending up a few thousanths bigger than "resized" brass.
Since we are working with very roomy chambers, we can leave the brass in the "as fired" state, sizing ONLY the case neck where the bullet seats, and sizing that only as much as needed to get decent neck tension on the bullet.
Typical pistol dies are designed to "full length size", but can be set up to partially resize or "neck size".
To do this, take a .45 Colt sizing die and adjust it so that the decapping pin JUST knocks out the spent primer.
Note how close the die mouth is to the shell plate.
Most often it is still going to resize more than half of the case.
Now, loosen the collet holding the decapping pin, and using a small drift, push the decapping pin about .150 below the top of the die such that only the bottom portion of the collet holds the pin, and retighten the collet.
Now adjust the die until it JUST knocks out the old primer, and note how much of the case is up inside the die.
Likely you can get the die adjusted to a point where ONLY the case mouth is resized (the area that grabs the bullet) and no further.
Now, as long as you can reliably knock out old primers and you're resizing the top .200 in. or so of the case neck, you've done all the sizing CAS brass needs.
Load a few fired, neck sized cases with your favorite bullets and make sure they chamber ok in your pistols (mine do with ease) and compare the diameter of the loaded once fired, neck sized cases to those which have been full length resized.
You'll likely see about .005 or .006 inch diameter difference at the point of the bullet base, which means when you next fire them, these neck sized rounds will seal much better during firing, leave little powder residue in the chambers, and still extract just fine.
This is especially important as we load for minimum recoil with light bullets.
Cowboy .45 Special develops more pressure than .45 Colt at a given velocity and that means LESS blow-by at modest levels, but if ya push the lower limits of velocity, it's still possible to get smoky cases.
Neck sizing with a .45 COLT sizing die will reduce the smoky cases.
Question: What about loading dies? Updated 12/15/06
Cowboy .45 Special is designed to use ordinary "off the shelf" dies.
Using a .45 Colt shell plate and sizing die, and expander and seat/crimp dies from a .45 ACP or autorim die set.
While any ACP/Autorim dies will work, along with a .45 Colt shell plate, the very best results to date have been achieved using Hornady New Dimension .45 caliber dies no. 546554.
Note Hornady uses the same dies for .45 Colt, ACP, Autorim, and win mag.
They produce a proper roll crimp, and use a sliding bullet guide that aids in seating even very short bullets straight.
The sizing die is also a bit larger than typical ACP dies, which provides proper bullet tension for .452-4 cast bullets, and requires less effort to size and expand.
This makes the press run smoother, and works brass less as well.
Personally, I only neck size fired cases, adjusting the sizer so it resizes the part of the brass where the bullet seats, but not the lower aspect.
Question: What dies will work?
If you already have .45 ACP dies, and don't care to get Hornady dies, your ACP dies will work, together with your .45 Colt shell plate.
BUT, there are ways to make "better" ammo by using a bit more intelligent die setup.
Since we are loading for .45 COLT chambers, which are notoriously roomy (the old SAAMI numbers are sloppy, and chambers cut to SAAMI max are prone to burnt powder blow-by) we need to think about the actual dimensions of our cases if the goal is to limit blow-by, especially at typical CAS levels.
The Cowboy .45 Special has much less blow-by at middle of the road CAS loads, but if you like em reallly light, or load with BP or subs, read on.
One way to help reduce blow-by at low velocity levels is to use a .45 COLT sizer die instead of the slightly smaller ACP sizing die.
Even better is what is known as "neck sizing" our fired brass.
When a case is fired it expands and "bounces" back part way, ending up a few thousanths bigger than "resized" brass.
Since we are working with very roomy chambers, we can leave the brass in the "as fired" state, sizing ONLY the case neck where the bullet seats, and sizing that only as much as needed to get decent neck tension on the bullet.
Typical pistol dies are designed to "full length size", but can be set up to partially resize or "neck size".
To do this, take a .45 Colt sizing die and adjust it so that the decapping pin JUST knocks out the spent primer.
Note how close the die mouth is to the shell plate.
Most often it is still going to resize more than half of the case.
Now, loosen the collet holding the decapping pin, and using a small drift, push the decapping pin about .150 below the top of the die such that only the bottom portion of the collet holds the pin, and retighten the collet.
Now adjust the die until it JUST knocks out the old primer, and note how much of the case is up inside the die.
Likely you can get the die adjusted to a point where ONLY the case mouth is resized (the area that grabs the bullet) and no further.
Now, as long as you can reliably knock out old primers and you're resizing the top .200 in. or so of the case neck, you've done all the sizing CAS brass needs.
Load a few fired, neck sized cases with your favorite bullets and make sure they chamber ok in your pistols (mine do with ease) and compare the diameter of the loaded once fired, neck sized cases to those which have been full length resized.
You'll likely see about .005 or .006 inch diameter difference at the point of the bullet base, which means when you next fire them, these neck sized rounds will seal much better during firing, leave little powder residue in the chambers, and still extract just fine.
This is especially important as we load for minimum recoil with light bullets.
Cowboy .45 Special develops more pressure than .45 Colt at a given velocity and that means LESS blow-by at modest levels, but if ya push the lower limits of velocity, it's still possible to get smoky cases.
Neck sizing with a .45 COLT sizing die will reduce the smoky cases.
BoggusDeal
Single-Sixer
http://www.dakotaskipper.net/ebay/cowboy45special.pdf
He never advertised them for use in 45 Auto chambers.
He never advertised them for use in 45 Auto chambers.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
veeman,
Most posters are not understanding the issue, not bad information but are dancing all around the problem, it's a specific issue that you are experiencing; the cyl ratchet size difference of your two cylinders. charlesappel gets it.
#1 The case rim fit:
Since the 45 Special brass fit's past the cyl ratchets allowing the 45 Spl case rim to headspace on the cyl face in your NM Flat Top 45 ACP convertible cylinder, but doesn't fit past the ratchets in your old model 45 ACP convertible cylinder, indicates the two Ruger cylinder ratchets are machined differently. The old model cyl ratchets were left larger in diameter. For ACP cases since they are rimless, it was irrelevant.
#2 Solutions:
Relieve the ratchet in the old model cyl so the case rims will fit. Or as I posted in the 2nd post above, sand a little off of the 45 Spl case rims until they fit. Personally I would use a dremel tool if you have the skill to relieve the ratchet on the old model cyl instead having to modify all of your brass.
#3 The purpose of using 45 Spl in the ACP cyl as opposed to the 45 Col cyl:
Accuracy, by using the 45 Spl brass in the ACP cyl is so the bullet doesn't have the excessive bullet jump to the cyl throats in the 45 Colt cyl.
Most posters are not understanding the issue, not bad information but are dancing all around the problem, it's a specific issue that you are experiencing; the cyl ratchet size difference of your two cylinders. charlesappel gets it.
#1 The case rim fit:
Since the 45 Special brass fit's past the cyl ratchets allowing the 45 Spl case rim to headspace on the cyl face in your NM Flat Top 45 ACP convertible cylinder, but doesn't fit past the ratchets in your old model 45 ACP convertible cylinder, indicates the two Ruger cylinder ratchets are machined differently. The old model cyl ratchets were left larger in diameter. For ACP cases since they are rimless, it was irrelevant.
#2 Solutions:
Relieve the ratchet in the old model cyl so the case rims will fit. Or as I posted in the 2nd post above, sand a little off of the 45 Spl case rims until they fit. Personally I would use a dremel tool if you have the skill to relieve the ratchet on the old model cyl instead having to modify all of your brass.
#3 The purpose of using 45 Spl in the ACP cyl as opposed to the 45 Col cyl:
Accuracy, by using the 45 Spl brass in the ACP cyl is so the bullet doesn't have the excessive bullet jump to the cyl throats in the 45 Colt cyl.
Bob Wright
Hawkeye
As was noted above, I have been working with such a round, which I call the .45 Xtra Short. I use .45 Colt cases cut to the same length as .45 ACP. And, yes, it is intended to work in the Ruger .45 ACP cylinder. The idea is to use this round in ACP chambers for mild loads so the bullet is supported from the case mouth by the cylinder throat. It can be used in the .45 Colt or .45 S&W cylinder, but there is that longer unsupported travel in the longer chambers.
And there is sufficient clearance for the case rims in Ruger Blackhawk revolvers.
If your loaded round won't chamber, check your cylinder throats. My ACP cylinder (from Ruger) on one .45 had throats of .450" and .452" diameter bullets wouldn't chamber until I had the throats reamed to .452"
My .45 with reamed ACP cylinder:
I have a 7 1/2" .45 with an ACP cylinder that had correct cylinder throats and used it to develop some loads while waiting to get my short barreled gun from Keith. This first grouping:
Bob Wright
P.S. I had not used the ACP cylinder for the 4 5/8" Blackhawk. Before taking the gun to Keith Warner, I tried chambering a .45 ACP factory round, a Winchester Silvertip factory load. It wouldn't chamber, either.
And there is sufficient clearance for the case rims in Ruger Blackhawk revolvers.
If your loaded round won't chamber, check your cylinder throats. My ACP cylinder (from Ruger) on one .45 had throats of .450" and .452" diameter bullets wouldn't chamber until I had the throats reamed to .452"
My .45 with reamed ACP cylinder:
I have a 7 1/2" .45 with an ACP cylinder that had correct cylinder throats and used it to develop some loads while waiting to get my short barreled gun from Keith. This first grouping:
Bob Wright
P.S. I had not used the ACP cylinder for the 4 5/8" Blackhawk. Before taking the gun to Keith Warner, I tried chambering a .45 ACP factory round, a Winchester Silvertip factory load. It wouldn't chamber, either.
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Great target and illustrates what the 45 Spl can do. I had similar results yesterday at my range at 20 yards from my 1st gen Colt with 45 Colt cylinder.
And all excellent info Bob. It will all be of benefit to veeman eventually when he gets his 45 S cases loaded.
But right now he can't even get his empty 45 S cases to chamber passed the hang up of the rim on the ratchet boss in his old model ACP cylinder.
And all excellent info Bob. It will all be of benefit to veeman eventually when he gets his 45 S cases loaded.
But right now he can't even get his empty 45 S cases to chamber passed the hang up of the rim on the ratchet boss in his old model ACP cylinder.
BoggusDeal
Single-Sixer
Hondo44,
I get his problems completely.
Bob Wright,
I am sure your reasons for using a short case that you intended for use in an Auto chamber are very valid.
However, having been in discussion with the fellow who originally came up with the C45S for use in CAS since 2008, his purpose was not for use in Auto cylinders. Adirondack Jack, his alias, developed the case for use with less powder than a 45 Colt case. He sold the business in 2012-2013 to a couple in Texas who took over the trademark and was having Starline make brass for them. They, in turn, sold it to the ammo company now selling the brass and loaded ammo.
If it works for you in an Auto chamber, great! I am sure AJ would be proud that someone is getting use out of his idea. I'm just pointing out that was not his original intent.
I get his problems completely.
Bob Wright,
I am sure your reasons for using a short case that you intended for use in an Auto chamber are very valid.
However, having been in discussion with the fellow who originally came up with the C45S for use in CAS since 2008, his purpose was not for use in Auto cylinders. Adirondack Jack, his alias, developed the case for use with less powder than a 45 Colt case. He sold the business in 2012-2013 to a couple in Texas who took over the trademark and was having Starline make brass for them. They, in turn, sold it to the ammo company now selling the brass and loaded ammo.
If it works for you in an Auto chamber, great! I am sure AJ would be proud that someone is getting use out of his idea. I'm just pointing out that was not his original intent.
protoolman
Service-Sixer
I offer the following quote from Iowegian a former member here who resides on the "other" Ruger forum.
Iowegan,
"edlmann, You got it reversed. The Cowboy brass is made to fit perfectly in a 45 ACP cylinder. Instead of headspacing on the case mouth like a 45 ACP case, it headspaces on the rim. You can use these same cases in a 45 Colt cylinder but because of the extra long chamber, quite a bit of pressure is lost so velocity suffers as does accuracy.
These cases were designed specifically for 45 ACP cylinder and will work just fine on S&W Mod 25s or Colt New Service without moon clips. Turns out, the Cowboy brass will also headspace like a normal 45 ACP case on the case mouth but it does increase headspace a token couple thousandths of an inch.
The headstamp is "COWBOY 45 SPECIAL"
Iowegan,
"edlmann, You got it reversed. The Cowboy brass is made to fit perfectly in a 45 ACP cylinder. Instead of headspacing on the case mouth like a 45 ACP case, it headspaces on the rim. You can use these same cases in a 45 Colt cylinder but because of the extra long chamber, quite a bit of pressure is lost so velocity suffers as does accuracy.
These cases were designed specifically for 45 ACP cylinder and will work just fine on S&W Mod 25s or Colt New Service without moon clips. Turns out, the Cowboy brass will also headspace like a normal 45 ACP case on the case mouth but it does increase headspace a token couple thousandths of an inch.
The headstamp is "COWBOY 45 SPECIAL"
Hondo44
Hawkeye
Correct. If the originator of the 45 Spl case had no intention of use in ACP cylinders, the obvious question then is why are the cases exactly ACP case length???
The 45 Spl has proper headspace in single action ACP cylinders because those cylinders have a normal 45 Colt headspace. Unlike ACP cylinders in double action cylinders which are designed to use moon clips (and can also use 45 Auto Rim cases), which of course have no need of clips in a single action revolver for extraction.
Again, the OP anomaly has nothing to do with the 45 SPL application which was designed long after the old model Ruger 45 ACP convertible cylinders were obsolete.
The 45 Spl has proper headspace in single action ACP cylinders because those cylinders have a normal 45 Colt headspace. Unlike ACP cylinders in double action cylinders which are designed to use moon clips (and can also use 45 Auto Rim cases), which of course have no need of clips in a single action revolver for extraction.
Again, the OP anomaly has nothing to do with the 45 SPL application which was designed long after the old model Ruger 45 ACP convertible cylinders were obsolete.
BoggusDeal
Single-Sixer
He designed it to be used with 45 Auto/Auto Rim dies and designed a carrier to be used with it in 45 Colt 1866 and 1873 rifles which were never fit with a 45 Auto cylinder.
http://www.thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html
http://www.thesmithshop.com/cbs45.html
Dale53
Blackhawk
I have a Ruger SS Bisley .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible. When I got it the cylinder throats were undersized. When using the .45 Colt cylinder, the revolver leaded terribly in just a few rounds. I couldn't even chamber my .45 ACP reloads as the cylinder throats were also undersized and my .452 bullets wouldn't chamber. I reamed both cylinders with a Manson "made for the job" reamer kit complete with pilots. Now NO problems and the gun shoots like an NRA Bullseye pistol (well under 1" at 25 yards from either cylinder).
I had 500 Cowboy Special brass from another project. Being curious, I checked them out. They work perfectly in the .45 ACP cylinder and allow me to roll crimp if I'm using a bullet with a crimp groove. If I'm using a bullet with out a crimp groove then I simply use a roll crimp. Either works perfectly well.
FWIW,
Dale53
I had 500 Cowboy Special brass from another project. Being curious, I checked them out. They work perfectly in the .45 ACP cylinder and allow me to roll crimp if I'm using a bullet with a crimp groove. If I'm using a bullet with out a crimp groove then I simply use a roll crimp. Either works perfectly well.
FWIW,
Dale53
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