45 ACP double action

[Ia.redneck]

The S&W 625 is so popular that they are often hard to get and hold their price quite well on the used gun market. My question is, do manufacturers do market studies to see what will sell? I'm thinking Ruger, or Colt for that matter, is missing a BIG piece of the pie not making a DA 45acp.
Maybe the S&W action is so good that no one wants to try. What say you?

 

[Rclark]

Ruger does well with the convertible .45 Single Action from what I understand. I have two. 'Maybe' a .45 ACP DA would catch on ... weirder things have happened ... but for myself I'll stick with my Single Actions. Thing is from my perspective, a .45 Colt chambered revolver does just as good and better .... so no real need for a .45ACP in my mind. I guess for those that don't reload, the .45 ACP would be a good option for ammo availability (only reason I can think of).

 

[hammie]

I would love to see a redhawk double action in .45 ACP, preferably with a 4.2 inch barrel. The .45 colt works great in a single action, and I do have a 5.5 inch blackhawk convertible. It's different for the .45 colt in a double action. In my experience. the tiny rim of the .45 colt would often slip under the ejection star, and if you didn't notice it before you released the ejector, you had the case fully seated back in the cylinder with the star on top. That jam is hard enough to clear on the range. I would hate to have to try it under stress. I now have a 5 inch 625. It ejects .45 auto rim and .45 ACP on clips, with 100% reliability.

 

[EDK]

I don't shoot 45s much anymore. There are 3 and 5 inch 625s in the safe PLUS a 645 that Wayne Novak slicked up back in the 80s. All excellent choices if I get off my rear and get a CCW permit. The cardiologist said to walk some and I live in the country where everyone has a large dog on the loose, leash laws to the contrary. While I don't want to shoot someone's dog, I don't care to be intimidated or bitten for walking down a county road. So maybe I need to get the CCW permit.

The 45 ACP double action revolver is a cult item, like the 44 Special was for years. Load it with the ammo of your choice and carry reloads in full moon clips. Then proceed about your business "with the cold confidence of a christian with four aces." The guns are not big sales number items like a Model 29/629, so they don't make a lot of them. Since they aren't readily available, people pay an exorbitant price for them. BUT S&W ain't getting a piece of the premium price and evidently doesn't pay much attention to the used gun market. S&W sees low sales numbers, so they make fewer guns....they make fewer guns and then they don't selll many because they aren't available and the cycle continues. Jerry Miculek is a big time shooter who likes the 625; Clint Smith of THUNDER RANCH is another fan of the 45 ACP revolver...S&W made some limited number editions of fixed sight 44 Special and 45 ACP service type revolvers at his urging, BUT they were extremely pricey and d*** few of them made.

 

[Biggfoot44]

As nice as they are , the market demand is pretty well covered by the M625 . There have been several limited production runs of .45acp revolvers in recent years , with only modest demand.

 

[Snake45]

I guess for those that don't reload, the .45 ACP would be a good option for ammo availability (only reason I can think of).

The main reason for a .45ACP DA revolver is so you can use the fast-reloading snowflake clips. Ammo availability is a pretty good secondary reason. Otherwise if you're going to carry and shoot a revolver big enough to handle .45ACP, it might as well be in .45 Colt or .44 Special or Magnum (IMHO, of course).

 

[contender]

One thing not covered.
The S&W 45 ACP revolver dedicated to the use of moon clips is a sought after competition gun. While it's desired,, unfortunately,, the number of folks who will use it in competition is low. So, low demand. Add in that it's a known fact to gunsmiths who tune revolvers for competition, (and to many shooters,) the S&W action is a bit quicker. Now most folks can never achieve the speed the grand masters get to,,, but they all want to have any little edge they can. So, a Ruger, Colt or whomever would have very low sales compared to the S&W.

 

[JWhitmore44]

Taurus used to make a 5 shot 45 acp and 45 colt, neither is in current production. From what I have read some the 45 acp guns had issues, mostly with extraction when not using moon clips. I would venture a guess that the 45 colt didn't catch on due to the limit on available defense ammo. The selection of 45 acp ammo and bullets out number the selection of 45 colt ammo and bullets, although you could reload the same bullets into either round. As of lately there seems to be more interest in 45 acp in revolvers and 44 special. Charter Arms just came out with a 40 S&W in a snub like the bulldog. I'd almost bet that a snub 5 shot 45 acp would sell pretty good these days.

 

[donut757]

I got one of the 325 Thunder Ranch 45s. It a fun gun to shoot, but i hate deals with moon clips sodont shoot it often.

 

[Timber Wolf]

I think it is a great idea. I had a similiar one last night, a GP100 in 10mm/.40S&W. Or maybe I read about the idea sometime and just remembered it last night. :wink: Anyway, for the price S&W 610s are commanding you would think Ruger could knock out a few GP100s in the caliber and sell them all pretty quick.

 

[Ia.redneck]

That's what I love about this forum, lots of good solid opinions and information! I will probably own one someday, just a little shocked at the used prices. :shock:
Timber Wolf, I agree, same situation with 40/10mm. Those 610's are bringing premium prices!

 

[Snake45]

I think it is a great idea. I had a similiar on last night, a GP100 in 10mm/.40S&W. Or maybe I read about the idea sometime and just remembered it last night. Anyway, for the price S&W 610s are commading you would think Ruger could knock out a few GP100s in the caliber and sell them all pretty quick.

If I'm not mistaken, didn't S&W build the 610s on the N frame? Kind of a shame they didn't use the more appropriately sized L frame. :?

I have a shooting friend who has a 610. One day at the range he had a case separate, leaving the forward half of the case stuck in the chamber. The really bad thing about this is that he was completely unable to reload till he got it cleared, because he had all his ammo already clipped up. (I diagnosed his problem and knocked the case segment out with the sharp edge of a GI cleaning rod segment, but can you imagine that happening in the middle of a serious situation? Yikes! :shock: )

 

[DeletedMember58]

S&W made a very limited run of L-frame revolvers chambered in .40 S&W, oddly enough with titanium cylinders and SS frames. At least one was made over into a 10mm by using a rechambered SS .357 cylinder. I have often that THAT would be an ideal handgun, sort of a .41 Colt on steroids using moon clips.

Along those same lines, Mr. Clement will reborn and rechamber a GP100 to 10mm using moon clips. But this is straying far afield from .45ACP revolvers, so my apologies.........

 

[Dale53]

I am a fan of the .45 ACP in both single actions and double actions. You can safely get .45 Colt blackpowder level loads (250 gr Keith at 900+ fps) in a modern revolver in either .45 ACP or Auto Rim cases. Further, since most of my use is light target loads (4.0 grs of Bullseye or equivalent behind a 200gr SWC) the ACP or Auto Rim case is more efficient with the light loads.

Most of what I need done these days is handled well by the .45 ACP revolver. With my double action 625's, my "new standard" for moon clips is RIMZ Model 25 carbon/polymer clips. They are much more reliable than the early Rimz clips for duty use and still allow the loading and unloading with fingers. No tools are needed. They are an excellent addition to the use of the .45 ACP's in double action revolvers.

Since this is a Ruger forum I'll mention the desirability of my Ruger SS .45 Colt/.45 ACP Convertible with the ACP cylinder. It doesn't allow for quick reloads, of course, but it is still a viable revolver for the range and hunting when loaded properly with either cylinder. Whether it's "Ruger only" loads in the .45 Colt cylinder or the somewhat lesser loads in the .45 ACP cylinder it is "good to ride the river with"...

FWIW
Dale53

 

[Chris Brines]

I know one thing...my next gun, will be a 45. That is for sure. I've only been a "gun person" for about a year now, and currently own 2 Glocks, and 2 wheelguns, (a GP100 and a S&W model 36). I was dead set on my next gun being a 1911 but honestly, I am starting to like wheelguns so much more that I am seriously debating on whether or not to consider a good 45 LC revolver instead.

Honestly, I want to be able to shoot 45 LC and ACP, in a double action revolver, but love Ruger's revolvers so much I'm thinking that adding the moon clips won't necessarily be an "inconvenience" at all.

I haven't yet shot a 454, but those seem tempting also. Can anyone tell me if you can shoot 45 LC and ACP in a gun chambered in 454 Casull?

 

[Snake45]

Can anyone tell me if you can shoot 45 LC and ACP in a gun chambered in 454 Casull?

Yes but you'll need two cylinders. I think this is pretty much a custom (expensive) proposition.

 

[Dale53]

You can shoot .45 Colt in a .454 chamber. However, it is extremely important to clean THOROUGHLY after shooting .45 Colt and BEFORE shooting .454 Casull. The build up of fouling at the end of the case mouth can interfere with the release of the bullet in the Casull. With the extremely high pressures of the .454 this can cause severe pressure problems. As an example, Freedom Arms warns against the use of the .45 Colt in their revolvers.

Dale53

 

[Arisin' Wind]

Checkout

http://www.pinnacle-guns.com/revolver.asp

They do the conversion: *The .454 conversion can allow you to shoot .45acp, .45LC and .454 Casull in a single conversion. $85.00

You don't need two cylinders

 

[Snake45]

Interesting!

 

[Thel]

The appeal of the S&W partly is it is a bit more compact than Colt, Dan Wesson and Ruger revolvers in .45 caliber and also lighter with the Mountain Gun version around 39 oz. Like others have said I don't think the volume is there to entice Ruger to make a gun in this caliber (.45 ACP). Seems I read somewhere the L frame 646 .40 S&W does not take full power 10mm loads for very long when rechambered. This may be because the cylinder notches are not offset as on Rugers so is at the thinnest part of the cylinder. Part of the reason S&W seems to make a lot of small batches may be that their manufacturing process is more adaptable to smaller runs than Ruger and some of the others.

 

[RVM45]

A .45ACP Redhawk would be cool.

A .45ACP GP-100 should serve as a good Trotline Sinker.....

At least as well as the .357 version.....

{Especially in Stainless!}

If only Ruger would bring back the Much Superior Security Six.

A Security Dix upsized to 10mm {It is now 3:04 Central Standard Time. Have you remembered to curse the Metric Systen yet today? Don't let a day go by...}

.44 Special or .45ACP would be Phantastic!!!


.....RVM45 8) :shock: 8)

 

[mattsbox99]

If you get a 45 Colt Redhawk, you can have it cut for moon clips for under $100 so you can shoot .45 ACP in it. I'm also pretty sure that the 45 Auto Rim cartridge will work without moon clips. The 45 Auto Rim would have to be handloaded though, since I'm not aware of any commercial sources.

I'm having Clements make me a 10MM GP100 now, hopefully it won't be too much longer.

 

[NorEaster]

I love the 45 caliber round but would not want to bother with moon clips. I would try shooting autorim cartridges if they would work in a ACP gun I felt I needed to own.
I'd rather have a 45LC revolver over anything in ACP. Leave the auto bullets for autos

 

[toysoldier]

Since all the revolvers mentioned have a cylinder long enough to hold a .45 colt cartridge, the only advantage of .45ACP chambering is ease of loading with moon clips. The long jump from case mouth to forcing cone doesn't help accuracy.

If a revolver were made with a shorter cylinder and frame (like the new Taurus .380), there would be some weight savings, and possibly increased accuracy.

My Brazilian-contract 1917 S&W is pleasant to shoot. Some of the stamped-steel moon clips were difficulty to load, but a touch of Dremel tool abrasive wheel took care of that.

I should mention that, seen from the front, a Smith loaded with .45 hollowpoints is quite intimidating.

 

[Dale53]

I believe the concern about the long "jump" to the cylinder in a .45 ACP is not justified. My two 625's (.45 ACP) are two of the most accurate revolvers I have. Further, the small case capacity is a definite advantage when shooting light target loads. I shoot mostly the light loads and prefer the lesser case capacity in my Bisley Convertible for most uses. On the other hand, as I have stated before, you can easily get black powder .45 Colt power from a smokeless .45 ACP in a modern revolver, if/when you need it.

Of course, if hunting large game, then the superior power of the "Ruger Only" loads in a .45 Colt is a desirable factor.

Courses for horses...

Dale53

 

[Chris Brines]

I love the 45 caliber round but would not want to bother with moon clips. I would try shooting autorim cartridges if they would work in a ACP gun I felt I needed to own.
I'd rather have a 45LC revolver over anything in ACP. Leave the auto bullets for autos

So what exactly are "moon clips"? All I know is that they are what you need to shoot 45ACP in a 45LC revolver. Are they something that stays permanently "attached" to the gun? Or are they just something you put in when you wanna shoot 45 ACP, then take out to shoot 45 LC? What is the difference they make that allows you to shoot 45acp in a gun chambered for 45LC?

I'm guessing the 45LC headspaces on the case rim, but 45ACP headspaces on the case mouth. So I googled a picture of "moon clips" (just because I wanted to see what they look like), and can't really understand how they enable the gun to shoot 45 ACP.

And just wondering, are they somewhat of an inconvenience, since you said you didn't want to bother with them? Because I'm trying to decide if my next gun purchase will be a 1911 or a 45 revolver, and up until this point, a gun I can shoot 45 LC and ACP in seems pretty appealing...but then again I've never actually seen one in person.

 

[Dale53]

We are talking about a .45 ACP double action revolver - the most popular of which are the Model 25 and Model 625 Smiths. They ONLY shoot .45 ACP (with moon clips) or .45 Auto Rim, with out. You correctly guess that the moon clips supply proper headspace for the rimless .45 ACP. Originally, they came into being during the build up for WWI. They could't supply enough 1911's to arm the troops (people on crew served weapons carried 1911's or revolvers). Smith and Colt were able to adopt their large frame revolvers to use .45 ACP (in spite of being designed for rimmed cartridges) through the use of the moon clips. The original moon clips are called half moon clips as it required two per revolver load (each clip held three rounds). When the full moon clips came into being, an additional benefit was realized - you could make an extremely fast reload. Further the enbloc rounds all ejected at once with NO chance of a stray case being caught under the extractor star.

The steel full moon clips really require tools to load and unload (hence the complaint about the inconvenience). However, since you can buy 100 steel full moon clips for $35.00 from Ranch Products direct, you can load them at home before you go to the range. The tools needed can be a very inexpensive tool or up to $100.00 depending on how convenient you wish to be able to load and unload the clips. Over the long haul, it doesn't amount to a terrible amount...

Another choice is to use RIMZ carbon/polymer clips which are made of, duh-h-h, carbon/polymer that allow you to load and unload them with your fingers. The new models are very reliable too - if you drop a loaded clip they stay together. The carbon/polymer clips are my new standard. They are more expensive than the steel clips but not needing tools offsets (and then some) the extra cost.

Many find that the .45 ACP revolver represents all the power that they need. You can safely drive a 250gr Keith SWC at 900+ fps. That more than equals a .45 Colt factory load, as an example. The original factory black powder .45 Colt would shoot through a horse at 100 yards, so that is a practical power level for many uses. I have taken all of my deer with a .44 Magnum handgun but would not hesitate to go deer hunting with my 625 (.45 ACP) properly loaded and used at reasonable ranges.

FWIW
Dale53

 

[toysoldier]

I don't know about later Smiths, but my 1917 headspaces on the case mouth, just like an auto pistol. I could load and fire it without clips, but empties would have to be pulled out with fingernails, or poked out with a pencil, chopstick, or Bic pen. The moon or half-moon clips allow the extractor to eject the rimless cases. Since single-action revolvers eject cases one at a time with a built-in push rod, lack of rim isn't significant. And after "adusting" my moon clips, I can load and unload them without a tool.

 

[Dale53]

Later Smith's are not headspaced on the case mouth. Early Smith's were. It's a non issue with me (if I want to use .45 ACP I use the clips and if I don't want to use the clips I use Auto Rim cases - choices are nice). However, there are those that feel shortchanged if their revolver doesn't headspace on the case mouth. To each his own... Whatever spins your propeller...

Dale53