44 spl weak primer strikes

[Northern Pike]

Hey, this is my first post so my appologies if I or have committed any breaks in etiquette or gross spelling errors.
I have a new bisley blackhawk 7.5" bbl 44 spl that I am experiencing weak primer strikes with. It is the flat top version with the steel XR3 gripframe (I think that is the model). It has a very light tripper pull that is almost too light right out of the box. Does any one have any experience with this. Do I need to order a heavier hammer spring? Does any one else with the 44 spl flat top have really light triggers and weak primer hits? e.g. actually about 3 in 50 rounds so far. Two hand load and one factory.

 

[contender]

Welcome to the Forum!
That's interesting. A call to Ruger might get them to send you a replacement hammer spring,, for free. I'd try that first.

 

[Hondo44]

well you seem to have enough variation in ammo to point the problem towards the gun. I agree with flatgate. I have a NV and 44 FT with no problems.

 

[Dale53]

My .44 Lipsey Special Flattop has no problem with Winchester or Federal primers.

If I were getting light strikes I would think seriously about replacing the main spring with a heavier one.

Dale53

 

[flatgate]

I agree with flatgate.

That's mighty kind of you Pardner! What did I say?

OK, I'll get back on topic. I've NEVER encountered a N.I.B. Ruger with a light trigger pull. Is this gun indeed brand new? In any case, I'd return it to the Dealer who sold it and inquire about it's originality. I bet someone has "fiddled" with it. I've heard of "Dealers" whom think they are Rugersmiths and they then mess with a new gun's lockwork then sell the gun to an unsuspecting buyer.

Remove the grips and see if both legs of the trigger spring are "hooked" in place.

One more question. Is the .44 indeed a Bisley or is it a Blackhawk? The Bisley grip frame is large whereas the XR-3 is quite small. The XR-3 will have a softer mainspring and a lock. Again, remove the grips and look.

flatgate

PS A few pics may help. Here's a Bisley .44 Special...

Here's a "Flattop" with the XR-3 grip frame.

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks so much to all your comments on my light primer strike problem. There is a lot of good knowledge out there. Hoplefully I am replying in the correct location so it goes back to the nice folks who responded to my post.

Yes sir, I have the Bisley Blackhawk Flattop 44 special with the steel grip frame, it looks (almost) just like the fine bisley you pictured. The one I purchased (supposedly new) from a small shop, has different cylinder retaining pin (a larger knurled version with a screw stop through the pin that locks it to the barrel. The trigger pull is very nice, relatively smooth but VERY LIGHT for me at roughly 2.7 lbs (this is just a comarison for my other guns as it is measured with 10 averages using my fish scale) vs. my 41Mag Flattop runs about 3.5 lbs. (E.G if I used a real trigger scale these numbers may be higher but they help me determine how light or heavy one gun is to another).

I also have two black hawks in 41 Mag, one is a 6-1/2" flattop with a steel grip frame and one is the 'plane jane' 4-5/8" in 41 mag (love em both). "in my "day loads" I am using a 215 grain SWC with the same primers (either CCI300s or WLPs) in the 41s. Same primers that I am having trouble with in the 44 spl.

But, i have taken the advice and have sent an E mail to Ruger, and you may be right about some "mods being done" as the shop that sold it to me said it was NEW but told me it was purchased as a set and the box had gone to with the other pistol which was sold. I almost turned around to make this a problem but the gun looked like it had never been fired and since i had already paid for it and had my back ground check done and 'really had to be somewhere else".

Thanks again to you all. I will follow up with how I made out when i find the solution.

Northern Pike

 

[G2]

The Base Pin you describe is not Ruger.
This would lead one to think that some "tinkering" has taken place.
Sounds like you need to find a good local trusted gunsmith to give it the once over.
These 7.5" Bisley Blackhawks are kinda hard to come by, & made in limited qty. ,,, I would probably overlook the miss representations by the Gunshop and just get it all fixed up correctly.
The factory boxed pair w/ the box going w/ the other gun Story, is just that, "a Story" or apparently part of the BIG Story that was tendered.

FYI The Base Pin sounds like a Belt Mountain after market pin. Nice pin that would be considered a improvement. Just be careful to not over tighten the set screw, it bends and then binds things up.

Bottom line you found a nice gun that's going to need a little love.
IMO, I would not let the guys that sold it to you touch it anymore, for the obvious reasons.

 

[contender]

I agree with G2. That basepin is not factory. I think Flatgate may be onto something as well. One leg of the trigger return spring may be off the support arm. (It's a poor mans trigger job.) Then,, is't highly likely that someone has replaced the mainspring with a lighter one. I'd get a factory stock one & try that first.
The more we know,, the more we can help.

 

[DGW1949]

No doubt in my mind that your new gun aint new.
With that in mind, a safety-test that you might want to do is cock the (unloaded) gun and see if you can cause the hammer to fall just by pushing it forward with your thumb. If you can, it's a safe bet that someone has altered the hammer/sear relationship. And if that's the case, you got an unsafe gun on your hands.....whole different senerio than simply needing a new spring.

DGW

 

[Sugar River]

Weren't the recent "Shootist" guns shipped with Belt Mountain pins? This could be one if the "mistake" guns that Ruger screwed up by not putting the special serial numbers on. If it is, you have a collectible piece.


Pete

 

[Yosemite Sam]

One thing that jumped right out at me: The 7.5" Flattop Bisley .44 Special is only available as one of the overrun "Shootist" guns, if I've got all my details right. If that is the case, I can't say for sure that these special run guns did not have a special base pin, and/or a nicely done factory trigger.

Regular (non-Bisley) .44 Specials with the new/old style gripframe do use a reduced power hammer spring, but this shouldn't be an issue on a Bisley model. In fact, the Bis should not have a lock under the grip, and you should be able to use regular Blackhawk hammer springs, which means you can use a "+" power spring.

Then again, you may have a used gun on your hands. I'm not real familiar with the Shootist guns, I just know that I'd like one. The 7.5" .44 Spec Bisley is not a standard catalog item.

[ETA: Dang, I see Pete beat me to it...]

-- Sam

 

[Hugh]

No doubt in my mind that your new gun aint new.
With that in mind, a safety-test that you might want to do is cock the (unloaded) gun and see if you can cause the hammer to fall just by pushing it forward with your thumb. If you can, it's a safe bet that someone has altered the hammer/sear relationship. And if that's the case, you got an unsafe gun on your hands.....whole different senerio than simply needing a new spring.

DGW

Don't desire to hijack the thread, but want to thank you for that tip about cocking and push the hammer to see if it will fall. I recently acquired a nice used New Model Blackhawk .357. Haven't shot it yet, but did note a trigger lighter than I care for. Pushing the hammer is the only pre-purchase check that I did not perform. I did check to see if both legs of the spring were in place; they were. After reading your suggestion I checked the hammer as you suggested; yep, light forward pressure and the hammer fell. Not good news, a pawn shop purchase. I believe I'll just send it to Ruger and let them find out if there's anything else that needs correction. Thanks again for the tip.

 

[M'BOGO]

I'd personally go so far as to flood the firing pin hole with penetrating oil (after removing the stocks). Dry fire it a few times. Then blow it out with compressed air. Apply normal gun oil, repeat with compressed air.

By the way, welcome to the forum, and nice catch on the 7.5 Bisley, very nice catch.

 

[Northern Pike]

Hey guys Thanks again for all your helpful comments, and no hijacked thread here, it's all good infor. I checked the gun using that cocking and pushing on the hammer method and seems fine. I checked to see that both legs were attched to the spring and they are. I called Ruger and ordered some factory springs. Heading out to the mountains with my 13 yr old daughter tomorrow (she said she wanted to hunt this year, so i said i could make that happen for her) so when i get back next week i should have my springs.

As far as thinking of going back to the dealer, I am not even considering that, I am much better off solving this myself with good and varied advice from those of you with more experience. I would post a picture of it but I am little embarrased to say I am still trying to figure out how to do that. I did notice that my 44 spl bisley has the company name on the SIDE of the bbl instead of the bottom like most rugers these days and UNLIKE the one that Flatgate posted. It says (Sturm Ruger & Co, Inc Southport Conn, USA) but NO SAFETY MESSAGE anywhere on the bbl.

Anyway, I will be going over all my ammo to see if I am doing something different with the 44 spl that I am not doing with my other calibers as well and after I put the factory springs in and get some rounds down range i will post my results and a picture once i figure that out.

Thanks,

Northern Pike

 

[flatgate]

Hmm, methinks this is a "custom" gun being marketed as a genuine Ruger product. Scroll up and look at the 7-1/2" Bisley image I posted. The barrel markings are not easily seen and do indeed carry the "warning" statement.

Appearance of a pre-warning barrel on this Bisley certainly, in my mind, supports the "Custom Gun" theory.

IIRC, the "Shootist Mistake" Guns have a serial number beginning with the 520 prefix, that is 520-XXXXX. Does the gun in question have a proper calibre marking on the side of the cylinder frame?

Posting Pics? Store them on a "host", like Photobucket or PictureTrail, etc.
A Tutorial appears in Ruger Forum's Gallery section.

flatgate

 

[G2]

Weren't the recent "Shootist" guns shipped with Belt Mountain pins? This could be one if the "mistake" guns that Ruger screwed up by not putting the special serial numbers on. If it is, you have a collectible piece.


Pete

Good point guys,, TOTALLY slipped my mind.
Wasn't the Basepin marked in some special way too ??? :idea: :idea:

The Ruger Forum, Where not alot slips by old minds. :roll:

Gottoloveit!

ps we really need some pictures of said subject gun. Curious minds want to see.

 

[Tensaw]

Northern Pike,

Welcome to the forum. A PM sent to you.

Tensaw

 

[Northern Pike]

Thanks Flatgate, am attempting to post a photo here. interesting wording on the side not the usual..says 44 Special Cal. (then second line) BlackHawk.....

I also noticed that one of my spring legs is very slightly bent...hope that photo comes out...

Ok, well me and the Munchkin are heading to the hills. Thanks. and thans for the note TENSHAW As I have now lived here for 21 years. on my second marriage and second brood of kids but orginially coming from Maine I found it no where near as nice to look at down here but..well...a place grows on you.

It appears to have worked...good tutorial. Hope to catch up in a few days. PS Flatgate I was pretty excited to see your picture of your Bisley 44 the other day, can you share your story on how you got hold of it and any thing else you know about them? I did read a post a while back about the "shootist 200" but of course have no idea were mine came from.

TX Northern Pike

 

[G2]

:shock: :shock: :shock:

Hard to see the stamping/ lettering but I tend to think by the looks of the front sight, Base pin and what one can make out of the lettering this might be a BOWEN.

The barrel might even be a OM barrel, would like to see the Address Stamping/Lettering.

Turn on you flash or brighten up the room and give us some detailed pictures, especially of the lettering on the barrel.
That second picture is good w/ detail. The slight bends are a decent way to lighten the trigger spring. FWIW all of mine get this treatment.

Either way this does look to be a very nice custom gun and before I went to changing things would try and track down it's history.

The Shootist's guns had a number stamped on the end of the Base Pin. What was it?, I don't re-call. (maybe 25 ??)

 

[Northern Pike]

mmm those are interesting comments. I need to do some follow-up and some research and see what I can find out. I wonder if

Ruger has it's own Custom Shop. Any one know if they may have done some of these special for premium? I mean do they do custom orders?

Here is the Frame Lettering.

And here is the bbl lettering, have you seen this Company Stamping type of lettering before?. There is no Stamping or lettering on the end of the Pin. Serial is 520-14xxx located in the normal place on the other side of the frame.

again, thanks for all your comments, I will enjoy doing some research on both the little Light Strike problem as well as the back ground. what caliber is your 6-1/2" flat top, I have that same one in 41 Mag (but mine is not an very low and cool serial number like yours.

NP

 

[G2]

I think this is what you have. and I don't know if Mr Bowen keeps track by SN# guns he works on but a call to him might reveal some very interesting information.
Either way i think you scored, just got to get it fixed.

Lookee here;

http://www.bowenclassicarms.com/NEW/images/2%20NM%20.44%20Spec.%20Bisley%20FTs.jpg

email [email protected]
Phone (865) 984-3583

I do think that is a pre 1978 Barrel too. (NO Warning/Read Instructions, pre 1978)

 

[c.r.]

+1 on the front sight and base pin being Bowen's work. the slightly bent spring leg is another sign of somebody "tweaking" that gun.

I've only seen pics of the Shootists' guns and the "Ruger Mistake" guns. neither of them have a front sight such as yours. they have a traditional ruger front sight.

Ruger does not have a custom shop.

you have a dandy right there.

 

[Hondo44]

Whatever you do, hang on to that gun! That's got to be an older barrel for two reasons: no warning stamped on left side or bottom and 44 specials have not been made with that length.

I can only see the upper end the coil mainspring and it has not been tampered with. Check the bottom end of it to see if it looks the same; if not, it's been cut. Even if the trigger spring is bent the slight amount I see in your photo, if both ends are hooked up, that's not a problem but as said above may be an indication of "tweaking".

 

[M'BOGO]

Do not send that pistol into Ruger, for anything.

 

[flatgate]

Ah-hah! Now we know what's going on. Yup, it's from Bowen or one of the other "top shelf" gunsmiths. The biggest clue lies in the marking on the cylinder frame.
It appears to be EDM or ? It's certainly not applied with a "roll die".

The Ruger made 7-1/2" .44 special calibre Bisleys are marked thusly:

RUGER .44 SPECIAL
NEW MODEL BLACKHAWK
The circled R trademark indicator follows the word RUGER.

FWIW, the genuine Shootists' examples have a "#5" style base pin that's stamped with the number 25, signifying 25 years of the Shootists.

Neat gun. Enjoy shooting it!

flatgate

 

[Northern Pike]

Gentlemen,

Thanks again for all your fasinating information. I entered into this with a question about one thing, which i think i have answers to, and now also have a whole interesting research project to work on, and a lot more knowledge.

I enoy reading the posts.

NP