40 Cal Recommendations Please

[soldernut]

For years I've had only 9mm semi-auto pistols. Now I'm persuaded the 9mm is marginal for self-defense and I want to move up to a .40 S&W.

I also considered a .45 ACP. I don't want to start a religious war about which of the two is better. The bottom line is this: While I can handle a 45, my wife can't - and (on paper at least) the 40 looks to be in the same ballpark in terms of performance.

I am a serious Ruger fan. My all-time favorite handgun is my GP-101 wheel gun. One of the nines I've had is an early production P89. It is utterly reliable - but incapable of groups less than about 4 inches at 7 yards. It's not me; my GP can stack 'em overlapping within half an inch at that range.

So I'm asking for recommendations for 40 cal pistols. I've heard that Ruger improved their P89 barrels since mine was made, but I have no idea how well their current crop of forties shoot.

My requirements are:

• Superb reliability. In that department, my P89 totally spoiled me. It never jammed, never failed to fire.
  
  Exposed hammer please. No internal strikers for this old fart.
  
  DA/SA - just like the P89.
  
  A safety/decocker. I have not made peace with the 1911 design and don't want to.
  
  Adjustable sights; rear adjustable for both windage and elevation.
  
  Great, out-of-the-box accuracy. Although this gun is intended primarily for home self-defense, I enjoy making a good showing at the range.
  
  Good warranty, readily available service parts.
  
  Reasonable price, and, like all my purchases, Id' prefer to "steal" it.

FYI, I've handled Glocks & Springfield XD's & don't care for them. Triggers feel mushy. Same for S&W's Sigma line.

On my short list now are Ruger 944, CZ, Taurus PT-101, Beretta Px4 Storm. H&K, Sig look nice but are probably above my pay grade.

Any and all suggestions welcome.

 

[96/44]

I would have your wife shoot a .40 before you decide. All of the .40's I have shot have a very snappy recoil, and more muzzle blast than a .45. If you do decide on one, the CZ would be my first choice, with the Taurus and Ruger tied for second. I really like the full size metal frame models from both companies, but keep in mind that if you do require warranty service Ruger has a much better reputation than Taurus.

 

[Mike J]

I have the P944 & it is a good gun. I tend to shoot my XD better though. I don't have any experience with the Beretta but I have read good things about them. Is there a rental range in your area? If there is any way you could try before you could buy it might be worth some rental fees.

 

[ArmedinAZ]

I would have your wife shoot a .40 before you decide. All of the .40's I have shot have a very snappy recoil, and more muzzle blast than a .45. .

Agree with this. If she doesn't like the push of a 45 she might not like the snap of a 40. I've witnessed a number of people shooting Glock 40 & 45s back to back and the 40 had a higher perceived recoil.

I love my Rugers but am scheming on how to add another CZ to the arsenal.

Oh yeah, this guy named Revhigh will come along and probably tell you that all 40s shoot knuckleballs much like your 89. :wink:

 

[soldernut]

By knuckleballs, do you mean lousy groups? If so, I know that's not the case. I shot a friend's H&K 40 and it grouped just dandy.

 

[Mike J]

Rev had a couple of inaccurate .40 caliber pistols. Now he's convinced himself that the caliber is inaccurate.
I do not agree with that opinion but Rev is all right.

 

[Cholo]

Yup, the .40's will slap you. I don't believe it's the answer for someone who doesn't shoot the .45ACP well. Though I don't care for the 9mm, with modern ammo I'll never say it won't get the job done.

 

[NixieTube]

I bought a .40 caliber S&W but an older one, a 4040PD Airlite, for my CCW. I wish I had 2 more of them, it's a great little gun and the Hogue grips take the bite out of the snap. Slim, small and lightweight I wish S&W had decided to keep making them much longer than they did.

Plus the little atomic symbol engraved into the scandium frame just looks cool. Great gun if you don't require large mag. cap. or the latest in ambidextrous everything. It will also accept an 8 round magazine from some of the other 3rd gen. single stack pistols, giving you 8+1, from what I have heard, although I haven't tried it myself.

I wouldn't trade or sell this gun for anything, I actually enjoy shooting it with the Hogue grips and IMHO S&W should have kept making them. In the all-black finish they are one of the best CCW weapons you can find. See if you can locate one and try it before you pick anything else, you won't be disappointed. Here's a pic.

http://www.gunshopfinder.com/smithandwe ... 4040PD.asp

They also hold their resale value if you take some care, which was a consideration for me. Smith and Wesson can and will still service them if necessary, according to people I've talked with here in MA. You probably won't need it. They're very reliable guns and if you get a nice one and take care of it you're not going to need much in the way of service. You might have trouble finding an extra original magazine or 2. The 4040PD magazine is different from every other 3rd Gen. S&W (to my knowledge) in that it has a ball-and-plunger assembly built into the magazine to *guarantee* slide lock on an empty mag. Most people I've talked to say it is superfluous but was designed in as extra insurance.

This was a pistol that was truly designed for police officers and law enforcement, in the wake of the Miami shooting, and it shows.

It's a hammer-fired pistol, but the hammer is virtually invisble except when the safety is on in which case it protrudes about 1/16th of an inch from the rear of the slide. It's a DA/SA pistol (very smooth trigger) with what everyone now calls "second strike" capability. The hammer has no spur, nothing to snag, and the safety is also a true decocker. The manual safety also *really* disconnects the trigger - you can pull it all the way to the frame with almost no resistance and of course, nothing happening. You can manually decock the gun also but I wouldn't recommend it as an everyday procedure.

In my opinion they should make them all like this . Or at least S&W should start manufacturing them again. It balances perfectly at the recessed trigger guard, and the only gripe is the slightly high bore axis. Other than that I can't think of anything I don't like about it (as you can tell.)

If Ruger made something like this gun I would buy it in a microsecond. I liked the SR9 a lot when I saw it but the SR9 was my second pistol after this one, and I use it differently, for different purposes.

 

[soldernut]

NixieTube: Thanks for the info on the S&W 4040 - and the picture link. Nice looking pistol! It looks like a cut-down & smoothed up version of a model 39 I had many years ago. Sounds like a great choice & too bad it's out of production. Question: My old Model 39, and a friend's 59 were both very accurate shooters. But they were both picky as hell about the ammo they'd eat. I hope the 4040 is better in that department. Thoughts about that?

Regarding recoil and my wife: It's not that she minds recoil. She doesn't.

She shoots a SP-101 with Hogue grips I installed, and she handles the recoil just fine. Some of my magnum handloads have a pretty snappy "bite," while others produce more of a strong "shove." She's fine with either.

My concern about the 45 is the same as shared by the FBI and many police departments. Women naturally have weaker wrists, and the 45s can malfunction without a strong wrist backing up their recoil-operated actions. The 40 is reputedly better in that department.

I visited a couple of large gun sellers in our area this afternoon - just to get my hands on a few of the contenders (and non-contenders), have a closer look, gather a few more opinions.

For overall good looks, plus fabulous fit & finish, a CZ 75b (9mm was all they had) really took the day. The feed ramp was polished like a mirror, and I love the way they fit the slide into rails cut inside the frame rather than outside. No need for any "melting" on this gun. Not even the lofty Sigs or H&Ks could match the "fine Swiss watch" impression of the CZ.

I was mightily tempted right then and there to postpone my 40 quest and buy the CZ in 9mm. Gawd, what a pretty gun!

I wonder if anybody has any ideas about this question: Can a CZ in 40 cal stand up to stout loadings as well as a Ruger in 40?

It's not that I want to go around wearing out a gun with a constant diet of "+P" ammo, but I had an interesting experience recently...

For years, I've been running 148gr lead wadcutter target loads through my Ruger GP101 revolver - very light loads. And it's grouped pretty darned well. I didn't really have much reason to load up hotter stuff (other than a few now and again to keep us acquainted with how it feels), because, in the nightstand, it's factory ammo only.

But I recently loaded up some Hornady 158gr JHPs over a full charge of Win 296 and paid close attention to accuracy. I was blown away. My groups were tighter than with my target loads!

So I'm beginning to think it's possible that a particular gun might perform more accurately with a strong load. If so, I'd like to feel like it can stand up to it. (It's equally possible I need to revisit my target loadings.)

Neither store had a Ruger 944 on hand. But I took a good look at both P90 & the P-whatever .45 ACP. Just like my P89, they're heavy, and look "blocky." Store staff spoke well of their reliability and ability to handle heavy loads all day long. I was surprised by the light, short and crisp triggers in SA mode; surprised that neither the H&K nor Sigs had better-feeling triggers than these inexpensive Ruger "bricks."

I looked at the Beretta Px4 Storm. The rotating-barel concept is interesting, but the first thing I noticed was the plastic guide rod. No thanks Beretta. You can do better than that!

Three different, but entirely competent-sounding, sales guys convinced me to have another look at the Glocks and Springfield XDs. I found the XD's back-strap safety major inconvenience; it has to be depressed to do anything! But I did appreciate the XD's loaded chamber and cocked striker indicators. Between the two, I came away liking the Glock better - and I just may allow it back into the running. Good sight radius, not much exposed to the elements, few moving parts, decent-feeling trigger.

One salesman handed me a Taurus "24/7" 40, DAO. It didn't look too bad, but when I tried the trigger - OhMyGawd! Run like hell. It is awful. Feels like the DA trigger on a cheap revolver - and that's its only mode.

I did do the obligatory looking and handling of Sigs and H&Ks. Nice guns, damn nice guns, but we're talking almost twice the price. Maybe I have some stuff lying around that I could peddle off on eBay; not guns, but electronics and photography stuff...

This being California, and years since I bought my last handgun, I decided to get the obligatory handgun safety test out of the way while I was shopping. The $25 certificate (if you pass - and you don't belong unattended by an adult anywhere if you can't) is good for 5 years, and you have to have it to buy a handgun. There are waivers for police & military, which is only right. Thank you guys for your service.

Dumb test. I passed with 100% and never previously having even glanced at the study booklet.

What are these CA BeauraBoobs thinking?

Yes, we have one store in the area that has an indoor range so you can "try before you buy." I didn't have time to visit them today, but plan to pay them a visit in the next week or two. Picked up some Fiocchi 40 cal ammo I found on sale today so I'll have something acceptable to run through the pistols I can try.

I really, really hope they have a 944 and a CZ 40 cal available when I do.

 

[ArmedinAZ]

It's such a pain having to spend all day handling guns and doing research :wink:

RE plastic guide rods....of course Glocks have them and hate to burst your CZ crush but so do they. But a SS guide rod is only a click away:

http://czcustom.com/cz-recoil-guide-rods-springs.aspx

Good luck in your quest.

FWIW I had a Glock 23 (40 compact) LE trade-in, it was a good shooter & the stock Glock sights are fast and easy to pick up, but I couldn't keep ammo supplied to 3 calibers so it had to go. But it's plastik....

 

[GhosT]

soldernut,

Enjoying yer thread.
Well written...as not inspiring a caliber war...lol

Own Rugers in 9mm, .40SW, a couple .357's, and a .44 magnum.


JUST MY 2 CENTS...
First , don't right off the 9mm(others will disagree,lol)

I do trust mine with certain loads.

SECOND,
Yer hearing about the PUSH of a .45acp VS the snap of a SW.40.
Safe bet you could adjust to either.....but yer wife involved.

Although I chose the SW.40, NO WAY SAYING yer wife should!
Ya will never hear me knock the .45acp round.

I will say, if ya research the ammo......both rounds do about the same amount of damage.

It does come down to push VS snap.

I do suggest, you fire a full sized .40SW (rent one at a range)...before ya chose.

The SNAP of a .40SW is not wicked.
Compare it to the push of a full sized .45ACP.

NOTE, YET AGAIN...not saying the .40SW is better than the .45ACP...
Just don't buy that a .40SW kicks like a magnum round.

I Prefer the .40.....friends prefer the .45ACP...
Try both in like guns,and let yer wife try them too.

No matter the Caliber ya choose...as ya want the wife to be able to shoot it for defense....
Don't go compact!

Just my 2 CENTS....

 

[Sonnytoo]

Since you liked the CZ75B (all-steel), I would suggest that you look at the newest thing to hit our shores, the CZ 75-D Compact, also known in the U.S. as the P-01. This is a fine gun. This model is the result of 3 yrs of heavy-duty testing by the Czech National Police and CZ75 guns, or clones thereof, are used all over the world. Known for reliability and ergonomics.
I have the P-01, a lightweight allow version of the 75B. check it out.
http://www.czub.cz/en/catalog/79-pistol ... MPACT.aspx
Good luck.
sonnytoo

 

[soldernut]

Ghost,

Thanks for your thoughtful, detailed reply. My comments, email style, below.

>Well written...as not inspiring a caliber war...lol

[sn] Thanks. Definitely don't want to start caliber flames. Each has its place.

>Own Rugers in 9mm, .40SW, a couple .357's, and a .44 magnum.

[sn] Mine are P89 (9mm) and GP101 (357 Mag, Stainless, 4" Barrel); the wife's is a SP101 (357 Mag). There's a lot to like about each and the GP is simply an amazing revolver. Love it.

>JUST MY 2 CENTS...
>First , don't right off the 9mm(others will disagree,lol)

[sn] Agreed. Most of the horror stories I've heard are from servicemen who were constrained to using hardball ammo. Thus the bad reputation for over-pentration and poor knock-down performance.

>I do trust mine with certain loads.

[sn] I'd have pretty high confidence in mine, and, as you say, with certain loads. But only in really, really close. My P89 is no accuracy champ. Still, police departments, not hamstrung to hardball, have abandoned the 9 left and right - and gone to the 10. I suspect they've learned something.

I know, some joke about the FBI being dumb. I'm not buying it, especially when it comes to the agency choosing a handgun caliber.

>Yer hearing about the PUSH of a .45acp VS the snap of a SW.40.
Safe bet you could adjust to either.....but yer wife involved.

[sn] I hear it a lot. And I'm not entirely persuaded. I shot a friend's H&K full-size in .40 and his 1911 (45) side-by-side. I know, they're not quite twins. I couldn't tell any appreciable difference in recoil. I found both to be entirely manageable.

Also, re "snap." Years ago I shot with a friend that had 4 magnum revolvers. 357 Mag Blackhawk, 44 Mag Blackhawd, and a pair of S&Ws that were a close match in size & barrel length. In either caliber, one could say the S&Ws "snapped," while the Blackhawks, "pushed." The difference, really, was in geometry. With the Smiths, recoil was snapped straight up your arm, clear to the elbow. Very jarring. The Blackhawks rolled up more. I found the 44 Mag Blackhawk more comfortable to shoot than the S&W 357

>Although I chose the SW.40, NO WAY SAYING yer wife should!

[sn] It's not like the 40 will be her primary weapon. It won't. My only concern is that she might, someday, have to use it. If that day comes, I think she'd be better served by a 40 than a 45 that might fail to cycle because of weaker female wrist.

>Ya will never hear me knock the .45acp round.

[sn] Nor me. I "did the math" on both rounds and, in the areas where bullet weights overlap, they were close to even.

>I will say, if ya research the ammo......both rounds do about the same amount of damage.

[sn] Looks that way. On paper anyway.

>I do suggest, you fire a full sized .40SW (rent one at a range)...before ya chose.

[sn] I do plan to test-fire my candidates before purchase. So many factors: Felt recoil, balance, weight, ease and quickness of coming back on target, grip ergonomics, natural "pointability."

>Just don't buy that a .40SW kicks like a magnum round.

[sn] I'll avoid that if I can. But we both regularly shoot two guns that kick like a magnum - our magnums! And, since I handload, I do have some additional options.

>Try both in like guns,and let yer wife try them too.

[sn] Yep. I plan to try the candidates.

>No matter the Caliber ya choose...as ya want the wife to be able to shoot it for defense....
Don't go compact!

[sn] I probably wouldn't anyway; I like the feel of a full sized postol. CC is not likely in the cards.

That said, my wife already shoots a "compact" very well. I mean, what else could you call a SP-101 w/ 3" barrel?

But I might make an exception for the CZ '01 mentioned. It doesn't look like they got carried away trying to make a boot gun.

 

[soldernut]

Sonnytoo,

Thanks for the heads up on the CZ P-01. It looks like a very nice pistol.

I like it that they didn't go too far bobbing down a full-size.

How's yours for accuracy?

Thanks.

 

[revhigh]

Rev had a couple of inaccurate .40 caliber pistols. Now he's convinced himself that the caliber is inaccurate.
I do not agree with that opinion but Rev is all right.

Geez !!! I'm not even in this thread and already I've been referenced 2 or 3 times. Guess I better finally speak for myself ! LOL !!!

If you DO get a CZ, make SURE you DO NOT get the CZ40B or CZ40P no matter the price ... I'm sure the CZ75B (and clones, and derivations) in .40 would be fine ... for a .40.

Actually Mike .... I had THREE .40's that were junk ... a Beretta (forget the number), the Ruger P91, and the CZ40B. And I'm far from alone in that opinion.

Seems like it's about time for a "REVHIGH's 40 caliber challenge" .... any takers ???

IMO, with today's 9MM ammo, there's absolutely NO REASON for a civillian to think he needs more firepower than a 9MM with quality ammo.

Full house .40's are a pretty violent round for an auto ... might as well just get a 10.

PS .... Mike .... I'll shoot any one of my 45's (you pick it) against ANY .40 production gun you can come up with (you pick), and we'll see just how accurate the .40 is ....

REV

 

[TRanger]

The choice is yours, of course; but here are my experiences if they matter. From observing hundreds of them on the range, I am less confident in the reliability of .40 autos than .45 ACP or 9mm autos. The .40 S&W has a sharper perceived recoil than the .45 ACP. Quite a few women who have tried both have switched to the .45 for that reason. The only pistol on the market designed from the beginning to handle the .40 S&W cartridge is the HK USP. All others are simply 9mm pistols, or in the case of the 1911, .45s adapted to the newer cartridge. I believe the HK is the best .40 pistol available. The Ruger is a rugged pistol and handles the cartridge well. Have not seen a .40 CZ shot much so cannot speak about it. In my limited experience, the .40 is not a significantly better stopper or killer than the better 9mm loads. The .45 is decidedly more effective than either.

 

[revhigh]

.the .40 is not a significantly better stopper or killer than the better 9mm loads. The .45 is decidedly more effective than either.

Precisely !

REV

 

[wixedmords]

Totally disagree on the .45 topping the .40. The energy of the .40 bests the .45. Everything else is just romance. The numbers are out there.

 

[TRanger]

Totally disagree on the .45 topping the .40. The energy of the .40 bests the .45. Everything else is just romance. The numbers are out there.

According to energy figures, a 22-250 is a better killer than a 45-70. Go shoot a few live things with both before forming an opinion.

 

[revhigh]

Totally disagree on the .45 topping the .40. The energy of the .40 bests the .45. Everything else is just romance. The numbers are out there.

Compare like to like. For example, 40 ball to 45 ball. It's not fair to compare a .40 high performance +p to a standard 45 ball load. You could get the same results comparing high performance 9MM to standard 40 ball.

Anyway ... the difference of a few ft lbs is negligible in the real world. A larger number does not necessarily indicate better stopping power, or warrant carrying that load simply because the 'specs are better', especially if controllability has now become an issue.

REV