30-06 compared to 7mm and others

dlh38or45

Single-Sixer
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Nov 13, 2007
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105
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Eastern Idaho
I have a Ruger Model 77 Mark II left handed bolt laminated 30-06.

I am kicking around picking up another rifle...just for the heck of it. I have seen a left handed bolt action 7mm for sale--both in a laminated
version and regular stock.

I have heard that the 7mm is flatter shooting than the 30-06, but does it have any other advantages over the '06.

I have also otherwise considered picking up a "black rifle " of some sort in .308 instead.

I currently have a Marlin 45-70, a Remington 30-06 which belonged to dad, my Ruger '06, and an SKS for centerfire rifles.

What are your thoughts?

Edited to add: I hunt big game mostly, and whatever I pick up, I want to be able to at least take a mulie, an elk, or a bear with it.

DLH
 
A whole lot of what you are asking here pretty muc h depends on which "7mm" you're talking about. There are several, starting with the 7x57 (or 7mm Mauser) and going up.

On paper, the 7X57 and 7mm Remington Magnum sort of straddle the .30-06, the 7x57 just below and the 7mm Rem. Mag. just above it in trajectory and ft.-lbs. In practical use, the differences between the three are not as dramatic as they might appear on paper. They're all doggone good. For the game you mention, all three would work admirably well at ranges that are reasonable for them.
 
I am talking about the 7mm rem Mag...

I had an old friend who used to hunt with one...he did a couple of years ago.

I figured that to get a significant difference, it would take moving up to a 300 mag, if then.

DLH
 
If you already own a .30-06, there is no reason to buy a 7mm Mag unless you just plain want the gun.

Not one single animal can be killed with the .30-06 that can't be killed with the 7mm, and vice versa. No deer, elk or bear will ever know the difference between either of those two rounds.

In purest terms, you would be better advised to take all the money you were budgeting for the rifle and buy .30-06 ammo and shoot the .30-06 extensively from field positions and at ranges out to wherever you can no longer on-command keep 5 shots inside an 8-inch invisible circle on a big game silhouette target.

Practice makes a rifleman, not a different caliber as close to his own as the 7mm Rem Mag is to the '06. You already have an excellent deer, bear and elk rifle for Idaho.
 
Hi I have a m77 in 7 mag I bought and used on a elk hunt back in 1978 I shot an elk at about 300 yds and it killed it useing 160 grand slams it only went 20 yds very small entrance hole recovered bullet under hide on opposite side I was not impresed It did not like heavy bullets but was very accurite with 140 to 160s in my opinion a 270 would have worked just as well and if you handload burn less powder as for 3006 you cant go wrong they do it all and if you find one with little longer barrel you will get almost 300 win mag velosity this is all just my oppinion and experiance im sure others will not agree

GRAMPS
 
first you can never have to many differnt guns. I love the 06 and for shooting out to 300 yards its all the gun you will ever need but need and want are two diffent things. The longest shot i ever made on a deer was 370 yards and i did it with an o6 because thats what i had that day. Would i have rather had a 7 mag or 300 mag for the shot? yes. could i have done it with a 308? probably. It all depends on how you hunt. When im hunting in normal deer season shots over a 100 yards are rare and about any rifle will do the job. When were shooting crop damage deer its rare to get a shot under 200 yards and ive watched my buddy shoot them at 400 plus yards. His gun of choise is either a 2506, 257 weatherby or a 264 win mag. Hunting like that you not only want to kill an animal but want it not to run into the fields. A 7mag would definately be a superior tool to an 06 for that kind of shooting. A 7mag shooting something like a 140 sierra or nos ballistic tip puts down deer right now. Lately ive been using a 300 win mag with 165 ballistic tips and it does the job too but i wouldnt want to haul around a 10lb 26 inch barreled bolt action in deer season. As a matter of fact most of my deer season hunting is done with handguns. Many guys bash magnums but you really need to look at the way your hunting. An 06 is a great all around gun. Kind of like the mini van of guns. It will get you where you want to go but sometimes the vette is just more fun.
 
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dlh38or45":rxgihcq3 said:
I have a Ruger Model 77 Mark II left handed bolt laminated 30-06.

I am kicking around picking up another rifle...just for the heck of it. I have seen a left handed bolt action 7mm for sale--both in a laminated
version and regular stock.

I have heard that the 7mm is flatter shooting than the 30-06, but does it have any other advantages over the '06.

I have also otherwise considered picking up a "black rifle " of some sort in .308 instead.

I currently have a Marlin 45-70, a Remington 30-06 which belonged to dad, my Ruger '06, and an SKS for centerfire rifles.

What are your thoughts?

Edited to add: I hunt big game mostly, and whatever I pick up, I want to be able to at least take a mulie, an elk, or a bear with it.

DLH

7mm mag and 30-06 are same class cartridges in my book. I would suggest a 338wm or 375 ruger or H+H as a step up for large game.
 
I don't feel that the 7mm Mag is a lick better than the 30-06 for all practical purposes in the field. I prefer the 30-06 for reloading. As to the 308, again, nothing there that isn't done by one of your 30-06's. As to black rifles, if one of your 30-06's are capable of 1" groups regularly, you wouldn't be getting much out of that either. Someone said buy ammo and shoot, I might add that if you don't reload you may want to invest in that. Of course only if that kind of activity suits you. Then you can shoot even more for the same $$, or at least have a bigger wish list at Christmas.
 
+1 to 7mm and .30-06 being in about the same class. For more authority when hunting really big game, you need to go a few notches up, like one of the big .35's.

Caveats - Ammo gets a bit pricey once you go past .30 cal. Buy a good shoulder patch. The harder they hit, the harder they kick. Blame Mr. Newton for that.
 
Don't mention this to my wife; but if you have a 30-06, you probably do not need another centerfire rifle. (One reason I don't own one. :D ) Only if you intended to hunt very large, dangerous game would a larger rifle be justified. The 7mm Magnums won't do a thing your '06 won't do. As to wanting another rifle, that is a whole different matter. If you just want a big 7, run right out and buy one. But it won't outperform your '06 worth a nickel. By the way, your 45-70 is another highly versatile rifle cartridge; one of my favorites.
 
EVR":22wdomfh said:
If you already own a .30-06, there is no reason to buy a 7mm Mag unless you just plain want the gun.

Not one single animal can be killed with the .30-06 that can't be killed with the 7mm, and vice versa. No deer, elk or bear will ever know the difference between either of those two rounds.

In purest terms, you would be better advised to take all the money you were budgeting for the rifle and buy .30-06 ammo and shoot the .30-06 extensively from field positions and at ranges out to wherever you can no longer on-command keep 5 shots inside an 8-inch invisible circle on a big game silhouette target.

Practice makes a rifleman, not a different caliber as close to his own as the 7mm Rem Mag is to the '06. You already have an excellent deer, bear and elk rifle for Idaho.
Quoted for truth. There's the answer right there. Nicely done!
 
In a way hunting rifles in the safe are like cars in the garage or shoes in the closet: any of them will get you from point A to point B. It is up to you if you want or can afford to have multiples to suit your fancy. 30-06 will cover any game in the lower 48, but it is still fun to have other rifles for various game, or as you said, "just for the heck of it."
 
That's why I have what I do...I thought that the 7mm wouldn't gain me much over the '06, and if I need that much more umphh, I would use my 45-70.

I am convinced that with the right bullets, my 45-70 would take anything in the northern and western hemispheres--almost anything in the world--short of elephant--and I heard of someone using Buffalo Bore 45-70's to even do that.

I am leaning towards skipping the 7mm and putting that money towards an M14 platform in 7.62 X 54 or an AR type platform in the same caliber.

I do have a Lee Anniversary kit reloading outfit that I use to reload, when I have time to shoot.

I like the '06; just wanted to know if there was much of an advantage to another caliber--specialization as compared to one "all purpose" rifle.


DLH
 
dlh38or45":thhmb55r said:
I am leaning towards skipping the 7mm and putting that money towards an M14 platform in 7.62 X 54 or an AR type platform in the same caliber.

DLH
You DO mean 7.62 X 51, don't you? :?
 
dlh38or45":2yac6epw said:
........I like the '06; just wanted to know if there was much of an advantage to another caliber--specialization as compared to one "all purpose" rifle.


DLH

Different opinions from different folks, but my 2 cents' worth is that even a .300 Mag isn't much more than an '06. You have to go to a .338 mag to really make a difference. And, having shot a .338 mag, I'd say you need a really good reason to own one, because after just a few shots, it ain't fun any more.
 
I have a couple of 30-06 hunting rifles9one a Ruger) as well rugers in 7mm rem mag/300win mag/338win mag and other cartridges.
The 30-06 will do whatever you need for hunting. The point is "need" vrs want. I have others and like them but my "go-to" rifle is a 30-06. If you really want or need to step up then the 338win mag would be the real next choice.

I am going pronghorn hunting this year and plan to take/use a 257Weatherby/7mm-08 and a 6X5X55 rifles and a 257Roberts pistol. I have 3 tags(1 buck and 2 does) so we will see if I use anything besides the 257weatherby. In the past I have killed them with 30-06(my first couple), 7mm rem mag(several), 25-06 and all did the job.

I also have a Nat Match M1A and it is allot of fun to shoot. I am not a big fan of the 223 black rifles myself but to each his own.

Bottom line is it is your money and no reason to NOT own another rifles need there really is very little difference between the 30-06 and the 7 mag in performence on game. The 7mag does kick alittle more though.
 
dlh38or45 wrote:
I am leaning towards skipping the 7mm and putting that money towards an M14 platform in 7.62 X 54 or an AR type platform in the same caliber.

DLH

You DO mean 7.62 X 51, don't you?

Good catch, Snake. You are right.

DLH
 
My experience say differnt. Ive shot well over a 100 deer with .30 cal rifles and a 06 puts them down better then a 308 and a 300 mag does a substainial better job yet. Anyone that preaches differntly just hasnt shot enough animals to really see the differnces. Sure any deer hit in the vitals with any one of them is dead but the 300 knocks the cork out of them. Weve shot deer with about every caliber of rifle and what weve come to prefer is the .2506 and 257 weatherby using 100 grain bullets the .264 using 120s, the 7mag using 140s and the 300 mag using 15os to 165s. They all do meat damage with anything but a surgical shot but they dump deer right now. Added advantage to these guns is there flat shooting. A couple inches doesnt seem like much at 3-400 yards but on a small whitetail it does make hitting easier. Dont get me wrong the 308 and especially the 06 are a couple of my favorite rounds but when the ranges get way out there deer usually take off running after being hit even by a good shot. They dont go far and there just as dead but you can plainly see which guns are more powerful. Couple others that are good compromises is my all time favorite round the 280 and although i dont care for 270s (a mental thing) they are just as good. As to having to step up to the 338. I have both a 338 and a 8mm mag and to be honest on small deer the 300 and 7 mag put deer down even better. I think its mostly due to the fact that bullets for the 338 and 8mag run heavier and are contructed a bit stouter for the larger animals they are designed to kill. If we got away from whitetail and i was hunting big bear or moose the gun i would no doubt be packing is my 8mag.
 
Lloyd's post is all over the map, and because the topic has kind of widened into more calibers than the original 2 {'06 & 7 RemMag} the map has kind of gotten bigger, and I agree with Lloyd for the most part. A proper post on the current topic needs to be all over the map.

Where to start so as to not make the map even bigger... :)

I think Lloyd nails it when he adds a hundred yards on to 200. One needs only take the relationship of two of my favorite calibers, the 6.5x55 and .264 as an example. If a fellow lives where shots past 200 are common, the obvious nod goes to the .264. It adds about roughly 75 to 100 yards of useful range to the 6.5x55. Especially where the hunter is fighting a bit of wind. It can be seen readily on the targets, whether paper or flesh.

Reason I said what I said earlier about SHOOTING from field positions is that most fellows I see at the ranges can't make use of the extra 100 yards that the magnums provide. Period. {...and BTW, the 7 Rem is not much of a "magnum" when compared to the .30-06}.

As for shooters, what I see is that they might be OK on the bench, but take the support away, and they are a lost ball in the high weeds. Thus, a .308 might kill quicker than a .300 Mag simply because tho Mr Average Hunter doesn't admit it, he buttshoots deer with the .300 due to having his eyes jammed shot when he yanks the trigger and he more occaisionally has his eyes squinting slightly open when he centermasses deer with the easier-kicking and yelling .308.

We watch this each year when we shoot the test I require on the ranch here, the norsk reinsdyrblinker prøve, the Norwegian government hunting shooting test. Fun to listen to the smack, then also fun to watch the bullets fly wide in the ditch...

Anyway, IMO, most hunters should stick to rifle-supporting box blinds, bait stations and 50 yard deer and make damn sure they have a good blood tracking dog asleep in the box with them for the necessary followup to come if they are lucky enough to buttshoot the deer. Fellas, most hunters cannot shoot worth a Clinton promise. There, I said it...

As for trauma, there is obviously more done by a high speed .30 cal cartridge than a slow .30 on deer. "On deer" that is pure advantage, on elk, well, not necessarily if high speed shortens penetration. A .308 is not a .300 and trauma proves it. Using same bullets, the .300 adds that hundred yards and inside the shorter distance wrecks more muscle and bone on a deer and in case anyone is confused, that means the deer runs less after being hit.

When you mix critter sizes as the OP noted, the issue gets a little more complicated.

I've killed elk with the 6.5x55, .264 Win Mag, 7x57, 9.3x57, .375 H&H Mag, my son with .30-06 and 7x57, my friends w/, well, you name it. The very round that gets a fast drop on deer can sometimes cause trouble on elk and that is simply because elk are bigger and the bullet has to go farther inside to cause The End than it does on a deer. That is not a complicated concept.

No one will tell me that there is any difference between the best .30-06 loads and the best 7mm Rem Mag loads on the full range of game the OP cited. None. But to limit himself to deer, well, maybe I might fidget a bit and imply the fastest 7 Mag loads might drop a deer faster on occaision than does the '06. I definitely agree with Lloyd that this can be demonstrated with a .308 and a .300. .300 wins if the shooter does his part, i.e., if the shooter does his part.

But after a different brand of beer I might disagree with myself if the Hunter told me his 7mm Rem Mag was a shaky M77 2.5 MOA rifle and his shots lingered out there at the 250-300 yard range, give or take, and he can shoot well enough to make his Remington 700 1 MOA '06 work for him. Go '06 in that case.

But add elk and well, we are for some reason a little hard on the 7mm Rem Mag. My Father-in-law used one to good advantage, but for some reason others locally hate it, for no ballistic reason other than that they didn't kill their elk with it. As a bore-hole and powder bottle, it is not a bad killer.

.30-06 or 7mm Rem Mag Both on deer? Pick the one you shoot best. If the argument was between a .300 Savage and a .300 Win Mag, I'd say learn to shoot the .300 Mag.

Example; Last Year for sonny and me.

Long Range Elk Country;
CrowsNest.jpg


Then came the short range {120 and 50 yards} elk. Oh, well, the .264 & '06 were fine anyhow...

ElkD.jpg


dselk2.jpg
 
In an article some time back, a professional guide went over his statistics on all the deer shot by his clients. Most of the animals that needed to be tracked or were wounded and got away were shot with magnum cartridges. He came to the (somewhat obvious) conclusion that no amount of projectile velocity made up for poor shot placement, and that hunters shooting the lower power (and recoil) cartridges were more likely to cleanly hit the animal.

Sometimes I go to a local private range when they have their hunter sight in days in the fall. 300 Mag groups definitely tend to be much larger than the 243 groups from what I have seen.
 
Fellow Idahoan Elmer Keith wounded and lost more game than anyone on earth in my opinion...not his own but others' due to his recommendations for heavy calibers for the rank-and-file of hunters, most of whom would rather go 10 rounds with Mike Tyson than actually shoot their Magnums enough to kill on-command with them. Yeah, most guys cannot shoot a .300 Win Mag very well, and even fewer the modern {and ballistically superb} .300 Ultra or others of that ilk.

I reckon that if all hunters were required to use the 6.5x55 or 7x57 {their choice, let's not be too highly regulated about it... :lol: } for the first five years of their hunting careers more game would be taken home and far less lost, better hunters made and more celebrations thrown around the fire pit than under the current state of affairs... :(
 
No doubt, ol' Elmer loved his big-bore tooth-rattlers in handgun and rifle, and many folks followed his advice to their detriment -- but to their detriment only because they really misinterpreted what he was saying and followed his advice to the extreme.

His .44 load was intended to be no sort of magnum, but a heavy-loaded .44 Special (250 gr. @ around 1100-1200 fps). This was what he considered ideal, and, really, what he continued to load for his own use even after the Magnum was a reality. Remington gave him (and us) a larger measure than he had wished for.

For elk and such, he swore by his .333 OKH round. When he and his buddies developed it, .338 bullets were hard to come by; but once the .338 came in to vogue, most wildcatters stepped up to that diameter. It became a .338 but not the .338 Magnums of today, not by any stretch. His was essentially a .30-06 necked up to .338, and really typified his ideal -- wide, heavy slugs at moderate velocities. Far from a bruiser, this one is downright pleasant to shoot for anyone who can stand anything like "real" recoil.

Elmer's idea were, IMO, right-on for his day -- and they work just fine today, too. I feel that improved bullets in all calibers have since wiped out a lot of the performance issues his theories addressed, but that doesn't make his ideas obsolete. His loads still work as well as anything of newer vintage. And in this day of inflated ammo costs, being able to use an inexpensive cast or cup-and-core bullet can add up to a real money-saver for the handloader who shoots and hunts a lot. (And if you are going to hunt, you really owe it to yourself and the game to shoot a lot.)
 
My experience with the 7mm Rem Mag and 300 Win Mag on deer was that it really trashed a lot more meat then I wanted to see go to waste. If you are careful about your shots and are not fond of putting the cross hair on the front shoulder then it could be a moot point but if you do shoot one square in the shoulder you can end up wit a bloody mess spiked with lots of bone fragments or at least that is what happens with off the shelf Remington Green box or the equivalent.

As I have grown older, and I am 40 at that, I have moved away from the magnums and these days I hunt deer with either the 308 or 270. Your 30/06 does everything either of those do and honestly I could sell my 270 and not miss it as the 308 does me just fine.

If you want a Black rifle, I really like the Armalite AR-10 but man that is a heavy gun to carry in the woods for hunting. I have been quietly looking for a Rem Model 7 in 308 for a lightweight pack gun that I can take for a really long walk in the woods more then I would want to carry a heavyweight around.

Any new gun is a fun thing to have and certainly the 7mm Rem Mag is a flat shooting cartridge that will do the job well BUT if you get it spring for premium ammo with better bullets or be careful where you aim!
 
Im surely not saying that a 308 will bounce off of deer. Ive shot enough deer with them to know better but it tires me to here guys who cant handle a mag bad mouth them. Like was said theres no way of hiding from pour marksmanship and many guys that use mags shouldnt but put the bullet in the same place at long range and the mags will put a animal down with more athourity then a non mag. Its as simple as that. Some guys worry about a little meat damage and i can see that a bit. I dont like a tore up deer but alot of that comes back to marksmanship. If your shooting all over the place and smack a shoulder with a mag your going to loose lots of meat but if you hit that same shoulder at the same range with a 308 your probably going to loose your shoulders anyway. Bottom line is any caliber or gun is only as good of a killer as the trigger man.
 
Personally I am a "live and let live" kinda guy, and if a person wants to use a magnum for deer, etc., I say more power to him.

I do think, though, that the "need" for magnums is 'way overstated. I know very well there are sections of the country where a close shot on an elk may be 300 yards, and in those situations a shooter is wise to pack as much of a gun as he can shoot. Note: "as he can shoot". If you can't make those long shots with the magnum, stay home or change your hunting area or technique to fit whichever rifle you CAN shoot.

The fact is, in most of the country 300 yards is a long shot, 400 pretty much unheard-of. For those areas, something in the .270, .30-06 range is as much as you'll need to do an efficient job.
 
Lloyd Smale":28chbnk0 said:
Bottom line is any caliber or gun is only as good of a killer as the trigger man.

AMEN!

The current crop of high speed magnum cartridges are superb cartridges in the hands of a man who can shoot them.

Most cannot.

As for Elmer, I spent 20 years in bed with the .375 H&H Magnum. Deer, elk, African critters and varmints all fell to my old beatup SAKO. Then a nerve disease hit me in 2000 and I tried other calibers...light ones...and found them a delight; And smoking deadly. Finn Aagaard wrote that on antelope he could never see much difference between a .375 and other cartridges like the .30-06. Me neither on the stuff I shot. By the time I healed up I had a good appreciation for my favorite all-round cartridge, the 6.5x55.

I never knew Elmer, but did spend some time with Bob Hagel, maybe the best gun writer of them all IMO, who knew Elmer better than anyone. Read Hagel's books. They are true.

Anyway, the fellow who wrote about Elmer's handguns is very close to ON. I have no use for the current crop of high intensity rounds shoved down the throat of a revolver; I like to be able to shoot a handgun strong or weak handed, double action single-handed as well, and call me silly if you like but I cannot do that with a .454 Casull run at full throttle.

My favorite .44 is a light-barreled S&W 29-9 Heritage. The only load I shoot is 18 grains of 2400 under a 240 jacketed or lead bullet. 1200 is indeed spot on and it kills stuff pretty well, and is very controllable. I had one bad day with a bear with it, but overall I like it.

.30-06 or 7mm Remington Magnum? Stick them both in a bag and reach in blind drunk and pick either one. Make sure you get the right bullets in the one you choose and you will be just fine, and will never miss the one you left in the bag.
 
Back to the ORIGINAL question.

For all intents and purposes the 7mm Rem Mag and the 30-06 will do pertty much the same thigns at the same rates over the same trajectories within corresponding bullet weight s over similar distances.

So that means comparing the 220 grain bullet in the 30-06 to the 175 in the 7mm Rem Mag. More apples to apples than apples to oranges.

There are lots of positives to both, and I really cant think of any negatives other than Premium ammo costs a chunk for either so that is a wash.

It's like having a .308Win, a 30-06 and 300 WinMag or Holland and Holland.
Not enough appreciable differences but all good cartridges.
And you can lump the 7mm Rem Mag inthere with them too!

Buy it. Shoot it. Love it.
You need a new rifle!
 
dlh38or45":3ocb8j1y said:
I have a Ruger Model 77 Mark II left handed bolt laminated 30-06.

I am kicking around picking up another rifle...just for the heck of it. I have seen a left handed bolt action 7mm for sale--both in a laminated
version and regular stock.

I have heard that the 7mm is flatter shooting than the 30-06, but does it have any other advantages over the '06.

I have also otherwise considered picking up a "black rifle " of some sort in .308 instead.

I currently have a Marlin 45-70, a Remington 30-06 which belonged to dad, my Ruger '06, and an SKS for centerfire rifles.

What are your thoughts?

Edited to add: I hunt big game mostly, and whatever I pick up, I want to be able to at least take a mulie, an elk, or a bear with it.

DLH

Hmm, so you have an '06 now. Well, 7mm Mag is nice because it punches a little harder on paper and shoots flatter. Also, it does this without a real increase in recoil. Depending on the stock, some 7mm's shoot like a big bad varmint gun. In practical terms its not going to be much better than a 30-06. Some people can spend hours parsing the finer points of each caliber but I wont.

You mentioned a black gun in something like .308. That sounds like fun to me, and since you already have a fine hunting rifle that is where I would put my money if I were in your shoes.

DPMS makes a bunch of AR-10 class rifles in .243, .308, and I want to say that there is even a .338 cal cartridge designed for a necked up .308 case. Remington came out with their R25 AR pattern rifle a while back and they sell that in 7mm-08 which is about as good as it gets in my opinion.

M1A's are nice but very expensive. A friend of mine had one for a short time and he had issues with his. He had a hard time getting it to work with reloads, which was important to him. He sold it and bought an AR from Smith & Wesson.

I like the Remington option. An R25 in either 7mm-08 or .308 gives you a dual-use gun that has practical utility as a hunting rifle but also gives you something to use for a Range-Blaster/target rifle. If you had it in .308 you can get surplus ammo somewhat cheaper than what you can get 7mm-08 for.

Cheers!

-S
 
I agree with most of you folks but add a few of my own comments (by observation):

- The 7 Mag kicks too much for my aging body.
- The 45-70 does well as a shorter-range weapon for elk but it cleans and guts a deer before it even hits the ground.
- The 30-06 is the best all-around cartridge.
- The 308 does 95% of what the 30-06 can do with a lot less recoil.
- The 243 is a favorite to shoot. It is perfect for deer and acceptable for elk if you have the skill and time for good shot placement.

I hunt deer/elk/antelope in Southern Idaho. I normally use a Winchester 70 in 30-06 but vary the cartridge type to match conditions.

Dave
 

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