1911 - 1/2 cocked hammer question

[Gunner4640]

Hi I am new to this forum and will be new to Ruger this saturday. Picking up a 1911 Commander for my first Ruger and 1911. My question is What is the purpose of a "Half cocked Hammer" :?: I am not going to speculate on what the answers may be. I have some ideas, I figured I would let the experts answer this.
Thanks
Dave Houston, Tx
I can't wait to get this gun in my hand. I am selling a SA Xdm 45 competition to get this one.

 

[Snake45]

It's basically a safety feature for if the hammer would ever get hit hard enough to break off the sear notch. The half-cock notch would catch it before it could fire and possibly go full-auto.

The half-cock notch can also be used as an intermediate step when lowering the hammer on a live round, should you ever want to do that. (See the whole thread on that subject.)

Half-cock is NOT a standard or particularly safe position for the hammer for carrying the gun.

In other words, in normal operation, you don't really use the half-cock notch FOR anything. It's just there.

 

[Gunner4640]

It's basically a safety feature for if the hammer would ever get hit hard enough to break off the sear notch. The half-cock notch would catch it before it could fire and possibly go full-auto.

The half-cock notch can also be used as an intermediate step when lowering the hammer on a live round, should you ever want to do that. (See the whole thread on that subject.)

Half-cock is NOT a standard or particularly safe position for the hammer for carrying the gun.

In other words, in normal operation, you don't really use the half-cock notch FOR anything. It's just there.

Thanks I thought that was the case. although i've seen guys carry it in that position. I willl not.

 

[DGW1949]

What Snake said.
That, and in it's original form, that "half cock" notch would catch the hammer if one's thumb slipped-off during cocking. I aint so sure that the hammer of a "Series 80" would serve the same purpose though, because it aint got a true "hook" on it's half-cock notch like was first designed. All in all, the main thing to remember is that the "half cock" position is NOT a carry-position on ANY 1911. In fact, it's the most dangerous way to carry one that I know of.

Stay safe and keep your powder dry.

DGW

 

[Gunner4640]

Thanks for the reply.. Thats what I needed to know

 

[1911Tuner]

Half-cock is NOT a standard or particularly safe position for the hammer for carrying the gun.

Beg to differ.

It was Browning's safety position before the manual slide locking safety aka "Thumb Safety" was added as the final modification before acceptance. It's mentioned in the 1910 patents, along with instruction for lowering the hammer to that position with one hand...and also calls attention to the modified grip safety tang that allows one-handed decocking.

Browning designed all his exposed hammer guns to use the half cock as a safety. Others worth mention are the Models 92 and 94 Winchester carbines and the Model 97 shotgun. All feature similar captive half cocks, and on those models...it's the only manual safety.

And examinating of the original captive half cock notch function...

The sear and hammer are interlocked, effectively disabling the fire control group below the firing pin. The sear can't move and the hammer can't fall. The whole shebang is locked up.

If that doesn't meet the criteria for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

 

[Gunner4640]

Half-cock is NOT a standard or particularly safe position for the hammer for carrying the gun.

Beg to differ.

It was Browning's safety position before the manual slide locking safety aka "Thumb Safety" was added as the final modification before acceptance. It's mentioned in the 1910 patents, along with instruction for lowering the hammer to that position with one hand...and also calls attention to the modified grip safety tang that allows one-handed decocking.

Browning designed all his exposed hammer guns to use the half cock as a safety. Others worth mention are the Models 92 and 94 Winchester carbines and the Model 97 shotgun. All feature similar captive half cocks, and on those models...it's the only manual safety.

And examinating of the original captive half cock notch function...

The sear and hammer are interlocked, effectively disabling the fire control group below the firing pin. The sear can't move and the hammer can't fall. The whole shebang is locked up.

If that doesn't meet the criteria for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

Good points you made. I am inexperienced with 1911's or lets say it's been a long time since i've used one. This is my first owned 1911 and loving it. thanks for the info I am going to invesigate this more. I am having hand problems so I can't go shoot it yet.

Good points

 

[1911Tuner]

Gunner...this only applies to the original design captive half cock. The quarter cock shelf such as the one on the Colt Series 80 hammer is a hammer arrest...not a safety position.

 

[ArmedinAZ]

So is the 1/2 cock position on the Ruger 1911 a safety position or not since it's not a series 80?

The Browning history lesson is interesting to know but only proves someone's literal error unless it's valid to new production 1911s, correct?

 

[1911Tuner]

The Browning history lesson is interesting to know but only proves someone's literal error unless it's valid to new production 1911s, correct?

If the hammer has a captive half cock notch, it's a de facto safety.
The manual safety that was added in the 11th hour pretty much put it out of business...but it's still a safety and can still be used as a safety if one so chooses.

 

[Snake45]

Half-cock is NOT a standard or particularly safe position for the hammer for carrying the gun.

Beg to differ.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, then. :wink:

 

[1911Tuner]

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one, then

Don't take my word for it. Go look at the patents.

Unless you won't take John Browning's word, either.

 

[1911Tuner]

Here. I'll make it easy for ya...starting on line 8.

 

[Snake45]

Post anything you want. I will NEVER knowingly carry any 1911 on half-cock, or consider that a "safe" carry mode.

BTW, I'm not too impressed with Saint John's idea of sights, either. And his original grip safety bites me (though I get along just fine with the 1911A1 one). So there.

 

[DGW1949]

Half-cock is NOT a standard or particularly safe position for the hammer for carrying the gun.

Beg to differ.

It was Browning's safety position before the manual slide locking safety aka "Thumb Safety" was added as the final modification before acceptance. It's mentioned in the 1910 patents, along with instruction for lowering the hammer to that position with one hand...and also calls attention to the modified grip safety tang that allows one-handed decocking.

Browning designed all his exposed hammer guns to use the half cock as a safety. Others worth mention are the Models 92 and 94 Winchester carbines and the Model 97 shotgun. All feature similar captive half cocks, and on those models...it's the only manual safety.

And examinating of the original captive half cock notch function...

The sear and hammer are interlocked, effectively disabling the fire control group below the firing pin. The sear can't move and the hammer can't fall. The whole shebang is locked up.

If that doesn't meet the criteria for a safety, I'd like to know what does.

That's all fine 'n dandy....unless.....the pistol is dropped and happens to land on the hammer, which could cause it to shear the notch, which could cause the hammer to strike the firing pin with enough force to set-off the cartridge. Considering the position of the half-cocked hammer-spur, the balance of the pistol and the weight of a fully-loaded mag....that aint an unlikely scenerio.
You can also note that exactly none of that can happen if the hammer is already at rest....as-in, hammer-down.

Yep, I'm still certain of it.....With all due respect to Mr Browning, half-cock aint a safe carry condition.

DGW

 

[1911Tuner]

Well...no gun is as safe if it's dropped as it is if it's not...but that half cock notch ain't all that fragile...even if the pistol drops on the hammer just right...which is about a one in a hundred possibility.

Put one on half cock and play with it a little. Place it on the floor as if it had struck the hammer...and you'll see that the grip safety tang absorbs most of it if the muzzle is straight up...and if it rolls to let the hammer take the brunt...the hammer is pushed off the notch instead of into it.

Browning wasn't stupid.

BTW, I'm not too impressed with Saint John's idea of sights, either.

"Saint John" didn't exactly have free reign. He designed exactly what the US Army Ordnance Board asked for...to their specifications. No more and no less. If they'd asked him to make the sights bigger, he'd have made them bigger. If they'd asked him to change the size and shape of the grip safety tang, he'd have complied with that, too.

And even though almost nobody uses the half cock for a safety any more, it doesn't alter the fact that it is...by design and intent...a safety. As I said, the addition of the thumb safety pretty much took it out of the equation, so the points are technical...not tactical.

Just wanted to address the myth that it was never intended to be a safety...because it was at one time...just like the half cock on the older Model 94s.

FWIW, I almost never use the half cock as a safety. Not because I don't think it's safe...but because it's just not as convenient as using the thumb safety.

 

[dakota1911]

The same for me. For me it is harder to reach up and pull back the hammer to full cock than to flip off the thumb safety, but each to their own.

 

[1911Tuner]

For me it is harder to reach up and pull back the hammer to full cock than to flip off the thumb safety,

It depends on how it's cocked. Trying to draw the gun and then cock it is awkward. If it's cocked in the holster, just as the hand finds the butt...it can be surprisingly fast and easy after a little practice. For the southpaw handling a pistol without an ambi safety, half cocked is a good compromise.

I occasionally store the gun on half cock...but never carry it like that. I've also carried it in Condition 2 under extremely dirty or muddy conditions. The cocked hammer leaves a pretty wide opening for mud and debris to enter the lockwork. Hammer down closes that window and still allows one-hand operation, albeit a little slower. Better a slowed presentation and a working gun than a quick one and a pistol that won't fire when it needs to.

Basically, the pistol was designed to let the user choose how to carry it according to his preferences and/or the conditions...or his needs...real or perceived.

As for JMB's "intent" on the carry condition...it's unlikely that he had one or even cared for that matter. He designed it to offer a choice and left the mode of carry up to the Army.

 

[DGW1949]

From the FWIW Dept:
The original 1911 hammer is shaped in a manner which facilitates thumb cocking, as-does (if to a lessor extent) the original 1911A1 hammer. In fact, the 1911 hammer spur strongly-resembles the hammer spur found on many early DA revollver hammers. On the other hand, I find the more modern hammer designs don't, particularly when combined with the upswept "beaver tail" grip safeties which seem all the rage these days.
As for which carry method is the safest, I'd reckon that one is as good as the other so long as one is trained, doesn't drop (or mis-handle his pistol), and usues a proper holster.....but that could be said for any sidearm. On the other side of that coin though, it's a fact that the 1911 design can not fire unless the hammer gets a running-start at the firing pin. The only carry method that I know of which totaly prevents that is with the hammer at full rest. Or one could opt to carry with the chamber empty.

Leastways, that's how I see it.

DGW

 

[Snake45]

As for which carry method is the safest, I'd reckon that one is as good as the other so long as one is trained, doesn't drop (or mis-handle his pistol), and usues a proper holster.

Find me a holster with either a thumb break or retaining strap set up for half-cock carry. :wink:

 

[DGW1949]

As for which carry method is the safest, I'd reckon that one is as good as the other so long as one is trained, doesn't drop (or mis-handle his pistol), and usues a proper holster.

Find me a holster with either a thumb break or retaining strap set up for half-cock carry. :wink:

I get your point.
Normaly they aint.....except some retainingg straps can/will fit over a lowered hammer and still snap into place.
On the other side of that coin:
Back when I was a cop, I tried a few holsters over the years which would actualy cause the thumb safety to disengage as I was going about my daily activities. So....there I was, thinking that my sidearm was cocked 'n locked, when in fact, it was simply cocked. I reckon I was lucky in that that was before the days of wet-molding the leather into the trigger guard as a means of aiding retention. Otherwise, I may have shot my fool-self. :lol: .

DGW

 

[Rodfac]

Find me a holster with either a thumb break or retaining strap set up for half-cock carry

Find me a thumb break holster that allows cocked and locked carry AND does not allow the thumb break to also push the safety off as it is disengaged....My Galco did that, when drawing, until, that is, I cut the thumb break portion off...thumb safety off while the gun is still in the holster is not where I want to be at that point in the presentation.

BTW, the disconnector keeps the gun from going full auto, not the half cock notch...Right 1911Tuner?

Rod

 

[1911Tuner]

thumb safety off while the gun is still in the holster is not where I want to be at that point in the presentation.

It can be a little unnerving to discover that your pistol has gone to Condition 0 during the course of the day, but unless you're in the habit of grabbin' at the trigger as you present it, it's not dangerous.

BTW, the disconnector keeps the gun from going full auto, not the half cock notch...

Not really. Burst firing requires that the hammer hold full cock and jar off or trip just as the slide goes to battery. A simple followdown...hammer riding down with the slide...won't do it unless the firing pin is too long and the firing pin spring is seriously weak. Assemble the gun without the sear and disconnect and manually cycle the slide slowly...and watch the hammer as the slide moves the last .100 inch into battery...and note the relationship of the hammer face to the firing pin.

Many years ago, I had a young fella bring me a 1911 pistol that had a hammer follow problem. It would cock and fire one round...the hammer would follow all the way to the firing pin...and he had to re-cock it to fire again.

When I field stripped it, I knew what had happened, even though he never owned up to it. He'd read or heard that filing the top of the disconnect would result in a machine pistol..and he did it. I replaced the disconnect and sent him on his way with a little advice about the function of the pistol and the legal ramifications of even attempting to create a machinegun.

Incidentally...assuming that some hack hasn't completely destroyed the case head support doin' a double throwdown ramp'n'throat job... this is why it's impossible to pull the trigger and have the gun fire far enough out of battery to blow up. At .100 inch out, the upper lugs are still engaged vertically. Even if it could fire...which it can't...the slide and barrel can't separate and open the breech...and at .100 inch out, the hammer can't touch the firing pin.

The disconnect's function is to bridge the gap between the trigger and the sear...and then recreate the gap to allow the sear to reset when the slide pushes it down into the disconnected position. It does prevent firing out of battery, but that's incidental.

 

[1911Tuner]

Back to the half cock safety/hammer stop question...

Browning had a penchant for designing one part to perform multiple functions. The slidestop alone has five. The half cock is both a safety and a mechanism for arresting a runaway hammer.

It stopping the hammer had been all it was meant to be, it would have been simpler, faster, and cheaper to machine a simple flat shelf in the manner of the Colt Series 80 redesign.

Instead, it was machined to create an interlock with the sear.

Remember that the 1911 was a contract operation. Time is money. Machines and tooling is money. Manpower is money.

Why go to all that trouble if it was only intended to be a hammer stop when a flat shelf would have served the same purpose?

 

[Rodfac]

1911 turner...thanks for the disconnector clarification...

As to the trigger on the finger, ..... as I present, the thumb rides the safety, until the gun comes up into alignment, and the trigger finger engages at that point...I agree, unless you pull the trigger, all's good...and I'd say too, that in the heat of the engagement, you'll react as you've trained...

Best Regards, and good posts...Rod

 

[Gunner4640]

As for which carry method is the safest, I'd reckon that one is as good as the other so long as one is trained, doesn't drop (or mis-handle his pistol), and usues a proper holster.

Find me a holster with either a thumb break or retaining strap set up for half-cock carry. :wink:

elpaso saddlery sells one, a nice looking one for a 1911. I'm going to get one after Christmas is over.

 

[Gunner4640]

I must say you guys know your stuff about this question. It sure has given me more to investigate. I've looked at my exploded view of my 1911 putting all this together to understand it completely. Thank you all very much its opened up new doors to my 1911 gun knowledge. keep it going this is great stuff. I am learning a lot.

 

[DGW1949]

I must say you guys know your stuff about this question. It sure has given me more to investigate. I've looked at my exploded view of my 1911 putting all this together to understand it completely. Thank you all very much its opened up new doors to my 1911 gun knowledge. keep it going this is great stuff. I am learning a lot.

I hear ya Gunner.
This has been a very good discussion......I'm learning a lot too.

DGW

 

[Snake45]

As for which carry method is the safest, I'd reckon that one is as good as the other so long as one is trained, doesn't drop (or mis-handle his pistol), and usues a proper holster.

Find me a holster with either a thumb break or retaining strap set up for half-cock carry. :wink:

elpaso saddlery sells one, a nice looking one for a 1911. I'm going to get one after Christmas is over.

I looked at their website and didn't see it. Can you give me a model name or number? :? :? :?

 

[1911Tuner]

Thank you all very much its opened up new doors to my 1911 gun knowledge.

That was the whole point.

There are several mistaken beliefs surrounding the 1911. "Cocked and Locked, the way that JMB intended!" and "The half cock was never intended to be a safety!" are two of the most often repeated. People hear things like that...and because it makes sense...accept it without question. The problem is that many of those beliefs aren't backed up by evidence or rooted in historical facts.

"Browning corrected his mistakes with the 1911 when he designed the High Power!" is another one of my favorite targets to shoot fulla holes...but that's meat for another discussion.