LEOs going back to 9mm?

[Doug.38PR]

I've always said this "more is better" and "revolvers are outdated" thing is just a fad that will die off. Revolvers I think will make a comeback even in Law Enforcement someday. Not that semi automatics will go out the window, but this semi-auto spray and pray attitude has only been around for about a generation starting with Mel Gibson

 

[Rei40c]

Speaking of revolvers Smith& Wesson made the TRR8 revolver for swat units. 8 shots of .357 not bad at all. It's a very interesting gun.

Here's a video review on it with more info I found on youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sb_GFV_0KY8

 

[tjhodges310]

I am personally a big fan of 9mm. Before I bought my Glock 19 I debated very hard between that and the 23. I ultimately wound up with the 19 for 4 reasons:

1. I get 15 rounds in a standard mag versus 13
2. My follow-up shots are much quicker with the lighter recoil of the 9mm
3. The ballistics results I studied didn't vary all that much between the 9mm and .40 with premium self defense loads
4. Ammo cost

I think if you go back to when the .40 was first developed by S&W in the early 90s, there was probably a major difference in the ballistics results of the two calibers, but I don't think that's the case with today's modern ammunition. In fact, if you check out Hornady's website and review their results of the .40 and 9mm for their Critical Duty line in gelatin, you will see what I mean.

 

[GKC]

Shoot almost anybody with a pellet gun and they're most likely going to break off the attack.

I know you said that you posted this facetiously, but actually people have been killed with a pellet gun. If you shoot someone in the eye with a pellet gun, it will probably dissuade them from further hostilities. (Not that I am recommending a pellet gun as an effective SD/HD gun.)

 

[tazbigdog]

When have ever Law Enforcement administrators EVER done anything that was in the best interests of the officer in the field? NEVER!! Only thing they care about is their budget. Switching down, and yes I said down to a 9mm is nothing but pure economics!

 

[Meeko]

When have ever Law Enforcement administrators EVER done anything that was in the best interests of the officer in the field? NEVER!! Only thing they care about is their budget. Switching down, and yes I said down to a 9mm is nothing but pure economics!

How is going to 9mm a step down when performance today's 9mm is on par with every other common handgun round? 25 years ago sure valid criticism today however the ammo companies have the expansion and penetration at key optimum levels for the 9mm with it's velocity. They also have several street shootings in the real world to back that up. Not the same 9mm we used in the late 1980's.

If anyone likes a certain caliber over another today it's more about personal preference than performance!

 

[welldoya]

We had a case locally several months ago where it was reported that a man was breaking into a car sitting in a driveway. Two deputies showed up and ordered the guy to put up his hands and back away from the car. He was holding keys or a flashlight, something that the deputies took to be a gun.
They started shooting, firing something like 22 times. Hit the man either once or twice in the leg and he recovered fine which is good because he lived there and was just going thru his mother's car looking for cigarettes.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Anybody ever notice that when an incident like this happens the amount of firepower unleashed is grossly disproportionate to the perceived threat?

 

[tazbigdog]

How is going to 9mm a step down when performance today's 9mm is on par with every other common handgun round? 25 years ago sure valid criticism today however the ammo companies have the expansion and penetration at key optimum levels for the 9mm with it's velocity. They also have several street shootings in the real world to back that up. Not the same 9mm we used in the late 1980's.

If anyone likes a certain caliber over another today it's more about personal preference than performance!

9mm ballistics: http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

Federal Ammunition Ballistics

Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm FMJ 124 364 1150
9mm FMJ 115 356 1180
9mm FMJFP 147 326 1000
9mm JHP 115 356 1180
9mm Hyd-Shok 124 345 1120
9mm Hyd-Shok 147 326 1000
9mm Hyd-Shok 105 353 1230

.45 ACP ballistics: http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php

Federal Ammunition Ballistics
Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
45 ACP FMJ 230 404 890
45 ACP Classic Hi-Shok JHP 185 371 950
45 ACP JHP 230 369 850
45 ACP FMJM 230 378 860
45 ACP +P Bonded HP 230 461 930
45 ACP +P Hydra_Shok 185 524 1130
45 ACP Hydra_Shok 230 414 900

9mm ammo costs average per box: $13.99-$24.99 http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&dimensionids=4294846234&newcategorydimensionid=15422&searchscope=all
.45 ACP ammo costs average per box: $20.63-$41.99 http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&dimensionids=4294846234&newcategorydimensionid=15597&searchscope=all

9mm SMALL HOLE
.45 ACP BIG HOLE

In the end, it all comes down to cost. 9mm is a cheaper bullet.

 

[FergusonTO35]

It makes sense to use a cheaper cartridge when such an infinitesimally small number of them are going to hit a bad guy anyway. The main use of a firearm for defense, among police and citizens alike, is to persuade the miscreant to rethink his present course of action. As another poster pointed out in a real world gunfight most participants quickly empty their guns with little effect.

 

[Meeko]

How is going to 9mm a step down when performance today's 9mm is on par with every other common handgun round? 25 years ago sure valid criticism today however the ammo companies have the expansion and penetration at key optimum levels for the 9mm with it's velocity. They also have several street shootings in the real world to back that up. Not the same 9mm we used in the late 1980's.

If anyone likes a certain caliber over another today it's more about personal preference than performance!

9mm ballistics: http://www.ballistics101.com/9mm.php

Federal Ammunition Ballistics

Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
9mm FMJ 124 364 1150
9mm FMJ 115 356 1180
9mm FMJFP 147 326 1000
9mm JHP 115 356 1180
9mm Hyd-Shok 124 345 1120
9mm Hyd-Shok 147 326 1000
9mm Hyd-Shok 105 353 1230

.45 ACP ballistics: http://www.ballistics101.com/45_acp.php

Federal Ammunition Ballistics
Muzzle Energy ft·lb Muzzle Velocity ft/sec.
45 ACP FMJ 230 404 890
45 ACP Classic Hi-Shok JHP 185 371 950
45 ACP JHP 230 369 850
45 ACP FMJM 230 378 860
45 ACP +P Bonded HP 230 461 930
45 ACP +P Hydra_Shok 185 524 1130
45 ACP Hydra_Shok 230 414 900

9mm ammo costs average per box: $13.99-$24.99 http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&dimensionids=4294846234&newcategorydimensionid=15422&searchscope=all
.45 ACP ammo costs average per box: $20.63-$41.99 http://www.midwayusa.com/find?sortby=1&itemsperpage=24&dimensionids=4294846234&newcategorydimensionid=15597&searchscope=all

9mm SMALL HOLE
.45 ACP BIG HOLE

In the end, it all comes down to cost. 9mm is a cheaper bullet.

And real world results between the 45 and 9mm JHP is similar. Performance is what matters not cost and the 9mm does it. Similar rounds are also somewhat closer in price but when you factor in an agency with 1,500 staff it adds up. .

While on paper the 45 will score major and look impressive it's the performance of the JHP inside. The 9mm of today has better expansion and penetration so it is even with the 45. No matter what the paper reads about energy, velocity time bullet weight equals etc in documented after action shooting investigations both 9mm and 45 have similar performance. neither one runs away from the other in real world shooting events when ALL factors are equal, barriers, distance, etc etc etc.

You can find a case of a failure with any round. I have seen countless folks in the Federal system still walking around that have been shot with 45 acp, others with 40 S&W 38 special, 357 mag, 9mm even a few 5.56 and 12 ga 00 buck. That doesn't mean that round is a failure just Murphy's law happened, or a barrier caused it not to perform or.

Like whatever caliber you want but 9mm is cheap because it's plentiful, it's plentiful because there is a demand for it, there is a demand for it because well it works or agencies wouldn't keep re adopting it after jumping on a bandwagon thinking they are under gunned.

 

[Meeko]

It makes sense to use a cheaper cartridge when such an infinitesimally small number of them are going to hit a bad guy anyway. The main use of a firearm for defense, among police and citizens alike, is to persuade the miscreant to rethink his present course of action. As another poster pointed out in a real world gunfight most participants quickly empty their guns with little effect.

If you are going to pull out a firearm better be prepared to use it. the mere presence of it is not a deterrent IF the perp is already in mid act.

According to Evan Marshal and Ed Sanow even the most expert marksman only have a 19-21% hit probability in a gunfight. The whole shoot 2 and reassess or shoot till the threat goes away is starting to subside back to the shoot 2-3-4 WHILE your assessing. There has been "theories" brought up that the shoot 2 and reassess were not effective because the perp had time to react if not incapacitated (didn't want that bad muscle memory) now I am seeing more shoot 2,3,5,etc while reassessing. That seems to have worked better than the whole "shoot till the threat goes away" What happens in a high stress shooting was in some cases officers started out looking at their sights the first couple shots but as they kept shooting their sight/focus shifted to the threat then misses started increasing. I have observed this with real life experience and force on force/building entries using simmunition barrels with SIG's and MP 5's

 

[FergusonTO35]

I did not imply that one should use a gun solely for dramatic effect or anything like that. What I meant was that upon seeing that the would-be victim is armed the perp resorts to flight or surrender more often than not. If this was not the case then police shootings would be a daily occurrence rather than a rarity in most places.

I also believe this the main, unspoken reason for agencies moving away from pump shotguns to military style rifles and carbines as the long gun of choice. These weapons have a fearsome and intimidating presence that tells someone "I mean business" better than just about anything. I've never met a single person with actual combat experience that thinks the .223/5.56 is a great or even good choice for a gunfight, even though most of them like the guns that shoot it.

 

[Meeko]

I did not imply that one should use a gun solely for dramatic effect or anything like that. What I meant was that upon seeing that the would-be victim is armed the perp resorts to flight or surrender more often than not. If this was not the case then police shootings would be a daily occurrence rather than a rarity in most places.

I also believe this the main, unspoken reason for agencies moving away from pump shotguns to military style rifles and carbines as the long gun of choice. These weapons have a fearsome and intimidating presence that tells someone "I mean business" better than just about anything. I've never met a single person with actual combat experience that thinks the .223/5.56 is a great or even good choice for a gunfight, even though most of them like the guns that shoot it.

I hear you, just simply discussing. As a firearms instructor within LE the main reason for the move to patrol rifles is effectiveness as well as training. Shotguns while effective at close range have narrow parameters and quickly loose that effectiveness. Rifles on the other hand are more effective stoppers, defeat barriers that are common in an LE setting, glass, automobiles etc better than shotgun rounds. Rifles can be more precise on their targeting as well defeat body armor better. Most shotgun rounds can't. the LAPD bank robbery shootout was a perfect example of that.

Then as a trainer the best thing is that they are not as hard for folks to master as is the shotguns. We have a very diverse workforce. There is no need to subject a good small statured female Officer to punishing recoil from a shotgun when a rifle like an AR 15 is available. Besides that small Officer might be helping save your skin so I want them to want to train and not be afraid to shoot when I call them. Shotguns have their place but a rifle option really shouldn't be optional.

 

[t-reg]

The best assessment of the LE 9 vs. 40 debate I've read is this:

"If you can't handle a .40 S&W, what are you going to go when you get the call to go break up a barfight?"

 

[Meeko]

The best assessment of the LE 9 vs. 40 debate I've read is this:

"If you can't handle a .40 S&W, what are you going to go when you get the call to go break up a barfight?"

Not really being able to handle a 40 is not a "reason". Several agencies still use 45 acp and 45 acp only. If new recruits don't cut it most of those don't say "that's ok here is this revolver"
Also while one always has to be ready the days of always going hands on are over. That is why the push and use of less lethal tools (OC, Tazer etc). That doesn't mean LE is soft just that they are doing it a lot smarter. In any big brawl Officers tend to receive more injuries. Tazers and OC take the fight out of the perps more times than not and without breaking bones etc like the days with batons. Remember any injuries incurred on suspects requiring medical treatment are usually paid by YOUR TAX DOLLARS. Sure batons are still available but talk about public perception issues (anyone remember 1991?)

Most agencies pick the 9mm for any variety of reasons, if the have 9mm sub guns logistics, cost of training (which really adds up when your buying 500,000 rounds for a 700 person agency/department/location a year (and for example at mine we train with JHP that we use on duty, same POA/POI so nothing is different). The last 10 years as pointed out the 9mm has made advances and is not the same 9mm of 25 years ago. For those that have an issue with any certain agency adopting the 9mm my suggestion 1. Get hired by them. 2. put in the years necessary to get into a leadership issue where you can run something and adopt that pet cartridge.

If you don't like the 9mm that's fine but saying you don't like it because it doesn't work your wrong, several shootings have proven otherwise and there are cases of every caliber failing at times!

 

[t-reg]

For those that have an issue with any certain agency adopting the 9mm my suggestion 1. Get hired by them. 2. put in the years necessary to get into a leadership issue where you can run something and adopt that pet cartridge.

If you don't like the 9mm that's fine but saying you don't like it because it doesn't work your wrong, several shootings have proven otherwise and there are cases of every caliber failing at times!

Ha! You win in reality Meeko, but this is a gun forum. Touche'!

 

[Meeko]

For those that have an issue with any certain agency adopting the 9mm my suggestion 1. Get hired by them. 2. put in the years necessary to get into a leadership issue where you can run something and adopt that pet cartridge.

If you don't like the 9mm that's fine but saying you don't like it because it doesn't work your wrong, several shootings have proven otherwise and there are cases of every caliber failing at times!

Ha! You win in reality Meeko, but this is a gun forum. Touche'!

Yes it is but it hasn't gotten as far off thread/topic as some can/do! I love this forum because so far unlike one from my home state everyone here just has discussions and there seems to be no "belittlement" if you disagree it's done respectfully.

Everyone take care!

 

[FergusonTO35]

Ok, I wasn't thinking about penetrating barriers and stuff like that. Makes sense!

 

[Z1D2]

A while back a popular round known as a 32acp was used. I would like hearing cops use those in hollow points. Or 380acp. Maybe 10mil + p (max)