Emergency Room-Riverside County Regional Medical Center- 2009revhigh said:
gramps
LEOs going back to 9mm?
- Thread starter Doug.38PR
- Start date
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gramps
Upper abd/lower chest. Hard to tell with massively obese people. I didn't get to see the X-rays. Since you seem to discount my observations, there is the 1985 FBI debacle in Miami, then a perp absorbed 33-9 mm hits and 3-12 ga slugs before succumbing in Chicago that Mas Ayoob reported. There are plenty of reports that are similar. The reason they left the 9 for the .40 in the first place!
gramps
gramps
That is certainly the exception and not the rule ... If it were the rule, it wouldn't be the most used caliber in history, in both wartime, as well as LEO use.
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aasthandguncara.htm
I'm not saying it's the best, but it sure has worked just fine for over 100 years, and is even better now with the improved bullets that are available.
REV
http://hunting.about.com/od/guns/l/aasthandguncara.htm
I'm not saying it's the best, but it sure has worked just fine for over 100 years, and is even better now with the improved bullets that are available.
REV
FergusonTO35
Hunter
This thread could've been about any topic under the sun and still would have turned into a 9mm versus .45 debate. That's how it goes on all gun forums. Carrying what you want to carry is just what I tell everyone when this topic comes up. I'm actually on your side here. I believe in good shot placement, which comes from confidence and comfort with your chosen gun.
Where/When .... Exactly .... Did you see guys (plural) that were laughing and joking after being shot by a 9mm ?
REV
Emergency Room-Riverside County Regional Medical Center- 2009
gramps
Well at least it sent them to the hospital! :roll: :roll:
Carbonyl
REV
Emergency Room-Riverside County Regional Medical Center- 2009
gramps
Well at least it sent them to the hospital! :roll: :roll:
Carbonyl
Cal44
Bearcat
I don't know what you guys are getting so upset about.
Barney Fife lasted 6 seasons with only one cartridge. And he kept that in his shirt pocket.
Barney Fife lasted 6 seasons with only one cartridge. And he kept that in his shirt pocket.
FergusonTO35
Hunter
It's not really anyone's fault. The mere existence of a gun forum ensures that a large percentage of posts will belong to the eternal .22 vs. .380 vs. .38 Special vs. 9mm vs. .357 Magnum vs. .40 S&W vs. .45 Auto vs. .44 Magnum debate.
gramps said:
That was how many years ago? As stated most people that have been around through the whole revolver to auto transition and worked in LE since the mid 1980's (I'm one of them) Have seen the dismal start with the first generation 9mm and it didn't perform well. That is why the training doctrine went to "shoot two reassess or shoot til the threat goes away". We never did that in the 357 mag days as far as across the board.
Today we are on like the third or forth generation JHP technology with the 9mm and the ammo companies have got it down. It is nowhere near as bad as the first (like 25 years ago). Todays 9mm JHP (at least the good quality gold Dot, Golden Sabre etc etc) is every bit as effective and neck in neck as good as a 40 or 45 period.
As far as others claim here about "well if you were a centimeter etc off from an artery with a 9mm a 45 would have gotten it" is complete hogwash. When your in a fight it don't matter, Murphys Law will make the artery get missed whether you have a 9mm or a 50 BMG.
If you like the 40 or 45 fine but it's more a matter of personal preference than performance these days.
http://motivationalmaker.com/saved_posters/poster_xjbwzku4fy.jpg
dbracing
Bearcat
The large urban PD near me has used 9mm for some number of years and has just replaced all their service weapons with new S&W M&Ps at a cost of $0 to the city. S&W did an even up swap with them.
FergusonTO35
Hunter
How did that happen? I know gunmakers generally give deep discounts to LE but S&W would have to receive like 3 used guns for every new one to make it even close to worthwhile.
dbracing
Bearcat
S&W had all the weapons that were not bought by officers when they updated sent to their network of resellers who then sold them at a profit which helped S&W meet the demands of pistols to the resellers. I don't know how many that involved, but I would imagine they didn't lose much on the transaction and kept their product in the hands of a very large department.
FergusonTO35 said:
The one for one swap is used a lot with departments. I am a Firearms instructor and have worked in LE for the last 27 ish years so I've seen a couple things with agency firearms. There are generally 3 prices on firearms. There is the whole "suggested retail. Then there is special discounts for Officer/military member pricing then there is Agency pricing. I'll use Glocks for instance, for a Glock 17 retails for what around 600 ish these days (not that you pay that but suggested) then officers/Military members can get them from the Glock distributors for 399.00 with standard sights. Agency pricing is around 330.00 per gun (agency pricing could be slightly lower depending on size).
Most companies/distributors can give agencies a one for one swap because they still make money. Even used police guns will sell for much more than the 330.00 or so. They will offer the agency a one for one swap or a "cash price" for each gun they don't swap. The cash price is what the Officers are given the option of purchasing their duty gun from the department for X number of dollars (usually a great deal for the Officer).
That is where most of the surplus police handguns come from. One might notice there are several S&W M&P 40's on the market now with Atlanta PD markings. That's because Atlanta PD switched to another model and their distributors flipped them.
What is costly for departments is if the new firearm causes the need for new duty gear. If their lucky just new holsters but, most quality duty holsters are $130.00 or more. Still can be an big bill if the agency has 100 or 150 staff let alone if they also need different mag pouches or the full belt and rig!
FergusonTO35
Hunter
Ok, I see now. I didn't know that most gunmakers also took in former service pistols.
FergusonTO35 said:
Actually the Distributors and gunmaker works hand in hand. The Distributors are the ones doing the buying/selling/trading. The gun maker just has hands in setting the price and any factory support like transition classes, equipment usage, armorer classes etc etc etc
dbracing
Bearcat
Here is the news report on the replacement. I have one of the old M&Ps and it is a good shooter, but not as nice as my SR9.
http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/cincinnati/Cincinnati-police-to-have-sidearms-replaced-at-no-cost/-/13549970/18066218/-/15h5vt5z/-/index.html
http://www.wlwt.com/news/local-news/cincinnati/Cincinnati-police-to-have-sidearms-replaced-at-no-cost/-/13549970/18066218/-/15h5vt5z/-/index.html
Doug.38PR
Single-Sixer
I posted a KHOU Houston article that the Texas DPS are replacing their .357 Sigs with 9mm S&W MPs earlier in this thread
FergusonTO35
Hunter
At this rate things may someday come full circle and they will start issuing six shot .38's again. After all many people thought the 9mm would be completely replaced by the .40 S&W. If I was a cop I would welcome that, I shoot my S&W 10-5 and Service Six very well, both single and double action.
