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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 11:12 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:01 am
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CraigC wrote:
I don't think that argument holds any water. If Ruger was 'that' worried about handloaders, we wouldn't have mid-frame flat-top or New Vaquero .45Colt's. Lawsuits resulting from over-pressure handloads in one of those guns is a far more plausible situation than anything involving the .41Mag. Hasn't happened yet and Ruger has never concerned itself with the actions of handloaders or condoned the use of handloads in their guns.

The prototype blew with proof loads, not standard loads.


Like I said...."I could be wrong".

Getting to the "proof load" thing which you've brought up......Are you suggesting a 41Mag proof load to be safe where a 44Mag proof load is not?.....I ask that because if you are, you must have a lot more faith in the tiny-bit of difference in the extra metal than I have.
On the other hand, it don't realy matter what either of us thinks. It only matters what Ruger thinks, and as yet, they haven't cared to market a large bore magnum on their .357-sized frame. I personaly think that I can identify some of the reasons why they haven't, but like I've said twice already....

...I could be wrong.

DGW


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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Mon Sep 23, 2013 12:44 pm 
Hawkeye
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If Hamilton Bowen will build a six-shot .41Mag on the Ruger mid-frame, then yes, I take it on faith that it is fully safe with an acceptable safety margin.

I don't consider the difference "tiny". Consider the difference between a .44Mag and a .45Colt and that the difference accounts for a 20% difference in acceptable pressures. I don't call 20% "tiny".

However, it is worthy of note that USFA .44Spl's have been successfully rechambered to .44Mag's and are reportedly safe for standard factory loadings.

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 9:02 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Sun Apr 10, 2005 1:01 am
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I get your point.
As far as conversions go, I've seen 41Mag conversions done on 357 Uberti's too.
What I haven't seen though, is a factory Colt Model P, or a Ruger, or any other SA of that size being offered in a big bore magnum caliber. Perhaps you touched on the reason why when you mentioned the "proof loads" which manufacturers are required to use for testing. I don't know whether or not that is a requirement for custom gunsmiths, but I doubt it. As I recall, proof loads are only available to the gun companies......but....

....I could be wrong.

DGW


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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:02 am 
Hunter
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I dug out me .44 Sp. Flat top medium frame revolver and checked the thickness between the chambers and the thickness from the edge of the chambers to the outside of the cylinder....I got .065" and .090" respectively.

Now since the .41 Mg bullet is .019" smaller than the .44 Sp bullet, it figures that the chambers would also be .019" OR SO smaller than .44 Sp. chambers.

IF SO, then the above figures in a .41 Mg. would be .084" between the chambers and .099 from the chambers to the outside of the cylinder. That is 29% thicker metal between the chambers and 10% thicker from the back of the chambers to the outside of the cylinder.

Since the chambers are smaller, hoop stress would be less of a problem than a larger chamber and also the thrust against the frame would be less that a larger bore cartridge...given equal pressures.

Based on these admittedly imprecise measurements (done with a vernier caliper), I don't think the .41 Mg. would present any problems for the medium frame Blackhawk, even with proof loads. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Tue Sep 24, 2013 10:47 am 
Buckeye

Joined: Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:01 am
Posts: 1680
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DGW1949 wrote:
I get your point.
As far as conversions go, I've seen 41Mag conversions done on 357 Uberti's too.
What I haven't seen though, is a factory Colt Model P, or a Ruger, or any other SA of that size being offered in a big bore magnum caliber. Perhaps you touched on the reason why when you mentioned the "proof loads" which manufacturers are required to use for testing. I don't know whether or not that is a requirement for custom gunsmiths, but I doubt it. As I recall, proof loads are only available to the gun companies......but....
....I could be wrong.

DGW


Has anyone mic'd or otherwise verified the frame size on a Uberti Callahan .44 Mag? - I know it is fluteless and mated to a larger/longer Army (IIRC) derived grip vs the '73 Navy most of the "SAA's" use. (Also uniquely sports a 1/2" longer barrel at 6"). I also may be wrong, but I think the "Callahan" is just listed as another sub-model in the Cattleman line. I know that doesn't necessarily mean same cylinder frame, but you'd think maybe - and if it is true that it's "just" a different cylinder'd and grip frame'd Uberti Cattleman-SAA, it makes you wonder.


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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 1:54 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:01 pm
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DGW1949 wrote:
.....who began work on a prototype BH to use in testing the new round....but...the gun(s) he was testing failed to handle the high pressure....so, a large-frame BH was developed instead.
DGW


The prototype was just the standard 357 Mag medium frame of the time with a longer cylinder bored to 44 mag. and the proof loads blew it up.

However, the Colt Custom Shop filled an order for four 41 Mag SAAs w/9" barrels and shipped them in 1976. I know their 357 Magnum cylinders are specially heat treated and stamped to indicate it. So I can only conclude the 41 mag cylinders surely were as well. And they are .020" smaller in diameter than Ruger's mid frame cylinders.

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:21 am 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:01 pm
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gak wrote:
Has anyone mic'd or otherwise verified the frame size on a Uberti Callahan .44 Mag? - I know it is fluteless and mated to a larger/longer Army (IIRC) derived grip vs the '73 Navy most of the "SAA's" use. (Also uniquely sports a 1/2" longer barrel at 6"). I also may be wrong, but I think the "Callahan" is just listed as another sub-model in the Cattleman line. I know that doesn't necessarily mean same cylinder frame, but you'd think maybe - and if it is true that it's "just" a different cylinder'd and grip frame'd Uberti Cattleman-SAA, it makes you wonder.


You bring up a good point gak.

No, I've not mic'd a Callahan, but I like you, doubt that Uberti made a new frame for them. However, Uberti & USFA (except for their one original model SAA) cylinders are not Colt size, they are Ruger mid frame size which is roughly .020" larger than a Colt SAA. They make good Ruger conversions being available in less popular calibers by the way. EMF Ubertis are made for them with Colt size frames/cylinders.

But the only cylinder wall thickness that's important is under the cylinder notches, that's where they fail.

However I just don't think the strength issue has anything to do with Ruger's reluctance, it's simply a market demand situation; just not there for the 41 Mag. Especially when they can't keep up with the market for other models with known high demand.

Feasible yes. Will it happen? Again I have to think, only if a distributor pays for a minimum special order. Has anyone asked Jason from Lipsey's if they ever discussed an order for 41Mag mid frames with Ruger and if so, would they even consider making a run?

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:16 am 
Hawkeye
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I haven't measured one but the Callahan is bigger than a standard SAA replica.

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:48 am 
Blackhawk
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A hi-cap SR10mm would be cool...

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 8:51 am 
Hunter
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Hondo44 wrote:
You bring up a good point gak.

No, I've not mic'd a Callahan, but I like you, doubt that Uberti made a new frame for them. However, Uberti & USFA (except for their one original model SAA) cylinders are not Colt size, they are Ruger mid frame size which is roughly .020" larger than a Colt SAA. They make good Ruger conversions being available in less popular calibers by the way. EMF Ubertis are made for them with Colt size frames/cylinders.

But the only cylinder wall thickness that's important is under the cylinder notches, that's where they fail.

However I just don't think the strength issue has anything to do with Ruger's reluctance, it's simply a market demand situation; just not there for the 41 Mag. Especially when they can't keep up with the market for other models with known high demand.

Feasible yes. Will it happen? Again I have to think, only if a distributor pays for a minimum special order. Has anyone asked Jason from Lipsey's if they ever discussed an order for 41Mag mid frames with Ruger and if so, would they even consider making a run?


Two things:

The bolt notch is offset on the Blackhawk and that would mitigate the notch problem somewhat.

And while I agree that the .41 Mg. is probably not the hottest caliber out there in terms of sales, it is possible that some of that lack of enthusiasm is due to the gun being over sized for the caliber.

It is probably not feasible for Ruger to produce them now, but the tooling cost in bringing this gun to distributors would be negligible.

I agree that it will take a distributor who is willing to buy enough of them to make it worth Ruger's while, and that ain't gonna happen in today's world in which Ruger is selling all the guns they can make, but someday......who knows. 8)

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 2:03 pm 
Blackhawk

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If Ruger would make a .40S&W on the mid frame, .401 powermag or 10mm would be just a cylinder boring away. It would also use that surplus brass......

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Wed Sep 25, 2013 4:10 pm 
Hawkeye

Joined: Fri Apr 03, 2009 7:01 pm
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Location: People's Republik of Kalifornia
5of7 wrote:
Hondo44 wrote:
But the only cylinder wall thickness that's important is under the cylinder notches, that's where they fail.


The bolt notch is offset on the Blackhawk and that would mitigate the notch problem somewhat.


5 of 7,

Blackhawk and Colt/Colt clone cylinder notches are offset the same amount of degrees. In fact the cylinders will interchange and work in the mid frame Rugers. But the Ruger notches are narrower than Colt's.

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 12, 2015 3:26 pm 
Blackhawk

Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 10:54 pm
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TTT..............

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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Sun Sep 13, 2015 4:51 am 
Single-Sixer

Joined: Thu Mar 04, 2010 10:32 pm
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{And while I agree that the .41 Mg. is probably not the hottest caliber out there in terms of sales, it is possible that some of that lack of enthusiasm is due to the gun being over sized for the caliber. }
Add to this that is also only availiable in two barrel sizes (4 5/8" and 6 1/2"). Make it a 5 1/2" Stainless medium frame flattop. Then the caliber will match the gun.


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 Post subject: Re: mediun frame 41 Mg.?
PostPosted: Sat Sep 19, 2015 10:13 am 
Hunter
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Quote:
="sp327Add to this that is also only availiable in two barrel sizes (4 5/8" and 6 1/2"). Make it a 5 1/2" Stainless medium frame flattop. Then the caliber will match the gun.


I agree to the 5-1/2" length for the barrels. In my opinion, that length is as good as it gets for general all-around shooting with the Blackhawk.

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