What is realistic max shooting distance with M77 in .308Win?

[annasophia]

I have a stainless steel and synthetic stock (Ruger paddle stock) M77 in .308 Win. It has a nice crisp trigger that runs about #3-4. I'm curious as to what the realistic potential expectation I could ultimately have for this rifle/cartridge combination regarding the maximum distance with which it could reliably kill a mule deer. Please don't turn this into a post about what is and isn't ethical because I clearly understand that it's not ethical to take longer shots at game than you're confident you can cleanly kill it with. I also understand that you can probably make a "hit" on a deer sized animal out to 1000 yards+ if you're good enough...but the bullet wouldn't offer much (penetration) at that kind of distance and I'm not interested in simply making a body hit, but rather a vitals hit. I'm just curious as to what could possibly be done with this cartridge/rifle combo. I'm going to start working up loads and playing with this rifle so I can become as proficient with it as possible before my next hunting season. I plan on whacking some coyotes with it this winter as well to see what this rifle is capable of in my hands.

Another question I have is what is the realistic barrel life one could expect from this caliber? Does it really matter whether or not it's a stainless barrel like mine vs. a blued chromoly barrel? I know this was a top of debate years back, but I really haven't heard much about it in the past few years...so maybe it's been settled with concrete evidence by now?

If you can impart some wisdom on these questions please do so. Thanks!

--Anna Sophia

 

[mattsbox99]

It'll last a lifetime of hunting, and while you can shoot much farther, I personally stop at 300 yards due to reduced chance of making a quick ethical kill.

 

[pisgah]

It's simply a fact that a good .308 has the potential to kill deer at ranges where most of us won't even see the deer, much less shot at him. There are folks out there who are perfectly capable of reliably knocking off deer at 450 yards or more. I am a fair-to-middlin' rifleman, but when hunting I rarely have the opportunity or the inclination to shoot much further than 300.

 

[rugnelli]

In regards to your first question...

Since you are the one shooting it and you, "clearly understand that it's not ethical to take longer shots at game than you're confident you can cleanly kill it with", you tell us.

rugnelli

 

[308longdistance]

IIRC, the rule of thumb was/is 2000ft-sec and 1000 ft-pds for deer size game. Some of the new premium bullets are down to around 1800 ft-sec for expansion. So, what ever that distance works out to with your load.

A .308 150gn bullet @ 3000fps works out to about 600yds. At 600yds it would be running 1875fps with 1169ft-pds of energy.

I shoot .257 100gn TTSX @ 3233fps for deer size. My load works out to just under 600 yards. If one feels confident and can make that shot, the bullet should do it's job.

JMHO

 

[scoutman]

The shooter is the limiting factor. Additionaly the measure should be under limited time restraints, together with the steadiest field rest you can gather.

 

[Bigboreshooter]

Shooting skill is probably the biggest single variable in the equaiton, but a quality 308 hunting rifle is certainly capable of consistently taking deer sized game at 400 yards or more.

 

[sp]

When sighted in 3 inches high @ 100 yds, a 150 grain pointed hunting bullet @ 2850 fps will be about on @ 250 yds, about 6-7 inches down @ 300 yds and 18 - 22 @ 400. What this means that if you have a good shot at a deer @ 400 hold over the beasts back in line with a forward leg, elevate your hold about 4-6 inches over the back and go for it.

Plastic tipped boattail bullets only increase in practical value over 300 yds

Barrel life with the .308 is extremely good -- for hunting purposes expect about 4500 - 5000 rounds. Old high power shooters usually replaced barrels after 3000 rounds at that time their 600 yd scores suffered. Hi power shooting with rapid fire strings and time demands keeps a barrel hot. Expect 10-15 % increase in barrel life with stainless. The Lilja site has info on this.

I think if all deer hunters in North America were restricted to only one rifle a .308 Win the annual deer take would be greater. I realize these thoughts may not be in compliance with those shooting 30-30's, .300 RUM's, .257 Wby's and so on but I like my light weight pint sized .308 Win. The .308 is also possibly the one of best combat rounds.

 

[mcknight77]

Wind is the hardest variable with distance shooting. You can measure the range with a laser rangefinder, but doping the wind is harder and more critical. I'll take a much longer shot on a calm day.

 

[sp]

Can't forget wind -- a 10 mph cross wind will move a 150 gr. .308 @ 2850 fps mv bullet a little more than 1 foot @ 400 yds. A 10 mph wind is not much. My limit for deer and whatever is 400 yds -- beyond 400 drop and wind deflection increase markedly, even with hi vel rounds.

More misses are caused by wind than hold over errors.

 

[picketpin]

Because yuur original question was one of ballistics and terminal preformance which is al slide rule stuff, I'll agree with what has been said.

You specifically didn't want to address what is a "reasonable" range to attempt to reliably take big game with a 308? About the same range as any other reasonably flat shooting centerfire rifle, about 300- 350 yards. Even if you KNOW the yardsage, after that it all gets pretty iffy. How do you dope wind out past that?? If your shooting bench rest and you have wind flags every 100 meters, then MAYBE you could come close.

If the wind is blowing constantly, is it blowing the same at the 100 yard point as the 300 yard point. Is the vector the same across the entire distance of the shot.

I was shooting the other day. a 22PPC, a 22BR and a 7mm STW.

At the bench the wind was almost directly acrss the lbullets path at 14mph with gusts to 22mph. All were sighted dead on at 100 meters. The PPC was shooting a 52 grain bullet at 3200 fps. The wind drift at 100 meters was over 7"!! The 22BR is shooting a 40 grain bullet at nearly 3900 fps. Wind drift at 100 was about 2 1/2". The STW with a 165 at 3300+ was drifting 2+ inches at 100.

I walked the range and took readings at 200 meters and 300 meters and avaeraged them. Even using the tables for wind drift and an average of velocity and wind vector all three rifles were "significantly" drifting down wiind. That's with knowing a rough figure for wind drift and factorying it in. Sitting/standing at the line and just guessing I doudt anything would have hit in front of the diaphram of a deer if the front of the chest was used as an aiming point.

Unless it's near dead calm or you are very very good at doping the wind AND are intimately familiar with your rifle/ammo anything much passed 300 yards borders on guess work and my "personal" world is unethical.

Late season deer hunting will end here in another 2 wekks. For the following 2 weeks we'll be putting down deer out on the desert that are gut shot or have their jaws shot away or shot through the hind quartersor................. I don't have a lot of faith in the average shooters ability to humanely kill game at distance.

Spend a little time, get closer and your shot placement and success will skyrocket over taking long shots over unknown distances in variable winds.

Inside 300 yards it shouldn't take any hold over to hit a deers vitals.

RWT

 

[Heliman]

My personal maximum distance for a confident shot is around 300 yds with the 308. That would be with 150gr loads. I'm just not that good beyond 300 to risk it.

 

[sp]

Another factor is the time it takes the bullet to reach the target. If the target just makes a small unexpected move this can mean a miss and at extended ranges a gut shot animal.

I shoot several times each month at ranges up to 600 yds and greater and feel real good at 400 yds with the .308 Win -- sometimes I have to hold about 1 foot left or right to make that first shot hit near the center of a 10 inch target in a mild breeze of 10 mph. Then moving up to 500 and six hundred yards the situation gets real iffy. In addition to a 3-5 foot drop the wind pulls that 150 grain bullet more than 2 feet at times -- this is too risky and I don't go there for hunting purposes.

Some of the folks at this range shoot mega magnum .300 and .338's with 200 and 275 grain boat tail bullets at almost 3000 fps. I have watched them miss at 500 & 600 yds (first shot) due to wind, sometimes up to 2 feet.

I know talking about magnum .300 & .338's is not answering the question about shooting deer at long ranges with a .308 Win. But if a screwup with a mega magnum is likely the probability of a screwup with a .308 Win will be greater.

Lets say 300 yds is much more certain than 400 yds, more than 400 yds is iffy to the extent that it has a high probability of a gut shot or shot off jaw.

I am sorry to have not mentioned wind at the beginning but when it is calm holding over the backline by 4-6 inches with a 250 yd zero does work. Actual shooting/hunting and using a fundamental knowledge of familiar trajectories and wind doping becomes sort of instinctive with practice and does not get into complicated calculations -- besides 400 yds is a long way out there and that is my limit.

 

[Brad]

Given the right conditions (wind, rest, light and time) I'd happily take elk out to 550 yards with the 308 Win and the right projectile... animals don't know about ft.lb. minimums... what they DO fear is a projectile through the vitals.

Killing isn't hard... opportunities are.

 

[resident]

Bench rest shooters regularly shoot 1,000 yards with .308, but those are special target rifles with heavy barrels, rests, and scopes. The .308 can deliver fatal wounds to deer at that range.
But deer HUNTING doesn't mean shooting at animals that can be seen with telescopic sights. It means HUNTING them in THEIR environment where THEY have a chance to detect YOU and reasonable chance of defense by escape....except for your superior stalking skills that allowed you to get within close range.... say 50 yards.

Sitting in a treestand and shooting deer over a corn feeder is not hunting. (You might as well go out to the Angus cattle ranch and shoot the cows at the feed trough. You'll have better meat, more of it, and won't look foolish in store-bought synthetic camo, makeup and smell like deer pizz.)

Just my opinion, having watched city-slickers come out with big-tire trucks, portable campsites, and toilets, ...light up the sky with lanterns and big fires and music.... sleep off the ground and then use cannons to kill deer that have been getting handouts in my yard all year long to the point of being tame, and call that hunting.

 

[Killer]

Don't forget the bullets time of flight. If you shoot past 350/400 yards and the animal takes a step the instant you pull the trigger then you possibly just gut shot [or worse] the poor thing.

 

[sp]

Time of flight calculations for the speed of a moderate walk @ 500-600 yards are about 3-5 feet. Add this to drop and wind.

 

[Brad]

Those of us that actually shoot at 100-550 yards know our weapons, understand time of flight, and what we can and can't do in given conditions. Practice builds-in the discipline to know when and not to take the shot.

Also, a good rangefinder and dots ore turrets are a must.

 

[308longdistance]

Nothing like a good 308.

 

[sp]

In addition to time of flight, wind deflection, bullet drop the next variable is, if the scope is not a first focal plane instrument, is the variation of impact points of the "dots" used for sighting points at different ranges as power settings are changed with variable power scopes.

Still, another variable is the elevation and windage adjustments using repeatable turrets on a scope. These must be periodically checked out. For example if an elevation or windage adjustment is backed off is (are) the spring(s) inside the scope returning the reticle to the backed off position?

 

[sp]

Nice pics Ed R.

 

[308dave]

Annasophia,
You've answered your own question when you state you understand the ethics of not shooting beyond your confidence level. Most ammo makers publish ballistic tables and I would guess handloading "recipe books" do the same. My once in a lifetime MN moose hunt resulted in having a huge bull in the crosshairs, but it was far beyond my comfort range. My .308 with a 180 gr. Nosler Partition would've killed it if I'd been confident shooting at 400 yds. but none of us planned for a long range encounter in the BWCA. I can't impart any wisdom on the barrel life issue, except to say that if you only sight in before the hunting season and only fire when you're confident of a one shot kill, your great, great grandkids will probably be able to shoot it. Good luck hunting and I applaud your ethical stance - something I wish more people calling themselves hunters would do.

 

[TBear77]

Another factor is what scope you are planning to use. A rule of thumb is to figure on 25 yards per power.

So a 4x scope is good for shots out to about 100 yards. Beyond that the animal appears to small for a clean shot to the vitals.

A good 3-9 variable will extend your effective range out to about 225 yards.

If you compare the ballistics information given by previous posters, the .308 is capable of reaching out to the limitations of your scope.

Hope this helps,
Ted

 

[TRanger]

Another factor is what scope you are planning to use. A rule of thumb is to figure on 25 yards per power.

So a 4x scope is good for shots out to about 100 yards. Beyond that the animal appears to small for a clean shot to the vitals.

A good 3-9 variable will extend your effective range out to about 225 yards.

If you compare the ballistics information given by previous posters, the .308 is capable of reaching out to the limitations of your scope.

Hope this helps,
Ted

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 25 yards per power???
How in the world did people ever manage to hunt with metallic sights? How do handgun hunters manage to hit anything? In my opinion, if you need more than a 2.5 power scope to shoot big game, you are too blind to hunt.

 

[TBear77]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 25 yards per power???
How in the world did people ever manage to hunt with metallic sights?

Practice.

How do handgun hunters manage to hit anything?

Practice.

In my opinion, if you need more than a 2.5 power scope to shoot big game, you are too blind to hunt.

2.5 power may be fine for Florida, but hunting distances in the west are greater.

I'll stick with the 25 yards per power as a rule of thumb. Annasophia can adjust the distance to match her level of proficiency.

Ted

 

[RJ556]

Picketpin, I think you're last post is right on the money!

 

[TRanger]

:shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: 25 yards per power???

In my opinion, if you need more than a 2.5 power scope to shoot big game, you are too blind to hunt.

2.5 power may be fine for Florida, but hunting distances in the west are greater.

Ted

More than enough for Florida, in fact; but I didn't always live here. I was once a resident of the Great State of Idaho, and 2.5X was plenty out there, too. Mule deer and elk are a heck of a lot bigger than southern whitetails. Of course, I'm a throwback. I've even been known to hunt with iron sights! :D

 

[sp]

My latest thought is that if all deer hunters were restricted to fixed power 6X scopes attached to high quality .308 Win rifles, shooting high quality hunting bullets and shot about 150 rounds per month at various ranges with changing conditions the national deer harvest would be much greater. I remember killing deer at some distance with a 2-7X set on 2 power.

If you shoot many rounds at small targets at targets out at any distance your confidence will increase. Consistant hits at extended ranges under changing conditions can only elevate your confidence. Also, try hunting varmits using the .308. Shoot, shoot, then shoot again. Your rifle will will last about 3000 rounds plus provided you don't shoot it hot enough to burn your fingers. M60 machine guns are chambered for the military version of the .308 Win.

Watching a High Power match out to 600 yards will indicate just how good the .308 is.

My limit is 400 yards with the .308 Win is because: (1) the wind deflection @ 400 yds with a 10 mph cross wind is about 1 foot, (2) the hold over @ 400 yds with a 150 grain bullet @ 2850 fps zeroed @ 250 yards is between 18-20 inches - a hold about 4-6 inches over the deer's back will score a fatal hit (from this you can see how the bullet is well into taking a dive), (3) the striking velocity @ 400 yds is just about 2000 fps and this ensures adequate bullet expansion, (4) the time of flight is short enough to enable a hit a deer that is unlikely to make a sudden move (not spooky like grazing), (5) I can shoot without turret rotations, checking power settings with 1st focal plane scopes to use "dots" or various ballistic plex reticles (with fixed power or 2nd plane scopes the impact points remain constant) and total reliance on range finder use that may not be that effective on a non-reflective deer. Almost all my range finder use is done before the deer presents itself for the shot -- I range various features up to what I consider a "go" considering conditions. When moving about there is lots of looking and ranging but a shot may occur at any range and 400 yards . There is no absolute barrier at 400 yds but be aware of a rapidly falling bullet -- just compare the drop at 500 yds, only 100 yds away from 400.

 

[sp]

Did I mention -- get 2 good bipods, a short one for close to the ground and use this instead of sand bags at the range, and a longer one that will enable you to shoot over the weeds and bushes from a sitting position in event that stump, log, rock or hay bale is missing.

Get the type of bipod that allows for a level hold and plumb hold using your cross hair reticle (allowing rifle to be turned on it's long axis).

Tripods can be fashioned from 3 bamboo poles allowing shots to be taken while standing (real high weeds)

 

[sp]

Correction of an error made in haste but easily fixed -- -with 1st or fixed power scopes (no power change) -- the impact points remain the same with dots or ballistic plex features.

2nd focal plane -- the impact points (ballistic plex) will move as the power is moved up or down - not stay fixed on the target. Almost all variable scopes sold in the USA are 2nd focal plane because we don't like to get bigger cross hairs as the magnification is increased. Set your 3-9X with a ballistic plex on 3x, sight and then move up to 9 x and watch how the aiming points move. Zeiss identifies some of their scopes like the Conquests as "2nd plane"

What this means is that before using a 2nd plane scope with a ballistic plex reticle be sure that the scope is set at the same power setting it was when you sighted it in using the ballistic plex features at various ranges.

That is why many of the long range or "sniper" variable power scopes made today are 1st focal plane. And also the reason why I like fixed power scopes.

I would expect that most readers of this stuff would know about 1st or 2nd plane scopes but I see folks out at the range that don't know why the plex feature of their scope won't work as they move the power up or down.