What am I missing?

[mike campbell]

How can you offer for sale a gun described as "Factory New" and/or "New Old Stock" with these terms...?

"LOCAL PICK-UP OKAY AND MUST GO THRU MY FFL DEALER (FEES AND TAX WILL APPLY); I AM NOT AN FFL, SO MAKE SURE YOUR FFL WILL RECEIVE FIREARMS FROM PRIVATE PARTIES "

How can one possess a new handgun, one which has never had a 4473 filed on it, unless they are a dealer?

 

[hittman]

Same way a 40 year old seller claims his 60 year old gun is un-fired. :roll:

 

[cas6969]

What am I missing?

The part where it says it "has never had a 4473 filed on it".


You've applied some value, or rather lack there of to an item because a paper form was filled out. NIB is NIB, no matter who's shelf it sat on. if you want to apply some car dealer "off the lot" devaluation to it, that's your business.

 

[mike campbell]

What am I missing?

The part where it says it "has never had a 4473 filed on it".


You've applied some value, or rather lack there of to an item because a paper form was filled out. NIB is NIB, no matter who's shelf it sat on. if you want to apply some car dealer "off the lot" devaluation to it, that's your business.

Really? Where did I say, or even imply, it was devalued?

I'm saying I interpret "Factory New" as just that ...new....as in never having been retailed. I make a distinction between NIB and LNIB or ANIB. If a gun marketed as "Factory New" is, in fact, pre-owned what do we call a gun that is not pre-owned?

If you wish to buy a previously owned gun or car that is being described as "Factory New", that's your business.

 

[WAYNO]

POOF!

 

[hittman]

I guess no gun is really "new" by some peoples definition. The factory owned it, a distributor owned it, a retailer owned it and now John Q Public Gunbuyer owns it.

If none of those owners fired it, modified it or scratched it ..... it's still NIB to me.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

It's a semantics game. "NIB" to me means with original box and "paperwork" . . . a collector's term, to be sure. Unfired? Could be hard to prove.

To me "new" means the seller is a dealer selling a never-before-sold gun, not necessarily including box/paperwork unless so specified. Unfired? Who knows, unless specified?

Wayno's fine distinctions could also apply.

Bottom line, I'd have to see the package and have a discussion with the seller.

JMHO YMMV

 

[NikA]

A thought experiment: a retiring dealer decides to keep a few new guns from his stock in his personal collection, and appropriately writes them out of his book into his private possession. The guns are unfired; later, the retired dealer sells them for profit. The guns haven't changed hands in a practical sense since they were delivered to the dealer from the factory. How can they be said to be anything but new/factory new/NIB?

If the requirement to fill out a 4473 changes the material facts of how a gun has been handled since its manufacture, it is news to me. The 4473 system is new enough that there are a not inconsequential number of NIB guns purchased before it was even a requirement.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

NikA, it's just another case where if I'm interested in the gun I'll have a conversation with the seller and determine the gun's "history" to my satisfaction. If I like the gun and the asking price, that's enough to get started on the $eriou$ di$cu$$ion. Semantics, again.

JMHO

 

[pete44ru]

.

FWIW, I've ALWAYS taken a gun seller's description with a grain of salt, since "beauty" in invariably in the eye of the beholder.

Besides "factory new", it's common to see folks selling a firearm they personally are not familiar with as "rare"....... yeah.... :roll:

I've never described a firearm I have for sale as "factory new", but in the appropriate situation have described one as "LIKE factory-new condition".

However, I usually use the term "pristine" for those firearms that deserve that description.

As far as the term "unfired" goes, AFAIK EVERY firearm is test-fired at the factory before releasing it for shipment/sale.

As in all else - caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I usually use the term "pristine" for those firearms that deserve that description..

I have always liked that term.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[Kevin]

As in all else - caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

Absolutely right. I've bought some guns which have not looked fired since they left the factory. I look at the gun and sort of tune out what the seller says, figuring it's a story anyway. Besides, if they use a term, like new or as new or a conditional term like pristine. Those words all have a degree of meaning. They might think one thing and me, or someone else might think something else.

The condition of the gun is black and white, what the seller says is more grey.

 

[Ruger45]

As in all else - caveat emptor (let the buyer beware).

Absolutely right. I've bought some guns which have not looked fired since they left the factory. I look at the gun and sort of tune out what the seller says, figuring it's a story anyway. Besides, if they use a term, like new or as new or a conditional term like pristine. Those words all have a degree of meaning. They might think one thing and me, or someone else might think something else.

The condition of the gun is black and white, what the seller says is more grey.

99% of the time what ever the seller is saying is just sales pitch. Like new, pristine, minty, and my all time favorite RARE all have little meaning to me as the buyer. Holding the gun in hand tells the story and when that can't happen pictures are the next best thing. Even with pictures one can be mislead by someone that knows how to hide the bad spots for the photo.

 

[pete44ru]

.

I agree - buy the gun, not the story...... 8)

.

 

[WAYNO]

POOF!

 

[pete44ru]

.

I agree that it's sad indeed, Wayne - but, it doesn't take many bad apples to spoil the bunch........

.

 

[WAYNO]

POOF!

 

[Ruger45]

I just don't get the dis-trust. Sounds like you and others are cheated on gun deals on a regular basis. I must frequent better neighborhoods.

Well Wayno here is an example http://www.gunbroker.com/item/625679378 his head line "Ruger Single Six No Conversion EXCELLENT CONDITION" and as you can see in the photos of the gun it looks like someone used it for a hammer. The grip frame is far from excellent and the grips barely come up to good conduction.
Or this guys "Ruger Single Six like new 22LR" http://www.gunbroker.com/item/624153776
My like new revolvers do not have pitting on the hammer and defiantly do not have what appears to be holster wear on the end of the barrel and ejector rod housing.
And just how many of these did they make? " Ruger Single Six .32 H&R Mag As NEW 5 1/2" Rare"
But they are so "RARE" you can only find 10 or so on GB to buy.
And only what 5 thousand or so of this RARE Ruger made "Ruger Single Six Marked .22RF Mag-RARE" http://www.gunbroker.com/item/625438090
The Rarest thing about his flat gate is the wood grips on it. "RARE Ruger Flatgate Single Six .22 LR Revolver 22" http://www.gunbroker.com/item/625025481 Out side of it's just one of 10 thousand others.
So as you can see these guys are using buzz words to try and get the un expecting to bid on a gun that may not be all they say it is. On the other hand take the first one his excellent conduction and my version of excellent differ greatly Is that because I am being to picky ? Or is he over advertising?

 

[Ruger45]

Always takes me back a bit to hear just how poorly we're thought of.

People come to the old collectors for information, we take them in, we share what we've learned, we hope our hobby is carried on in subsequent generations, but the bottom line is folks still expect us to cheat them in the end.

WAYNO.

No one expects to be cheated Wayno and it is the old collectors that help us newer one keep from getting taken by a bad sales pitch. And for that I for one am thankful to have this resource.
I have some guns that I got caught with the buzz words to find that it really wasn't as rare or hard to find as advertised.
And now the more I learn from you, Street, Scott, and the rest of the guys here the less likely I will get caught with my pants down again. :wink:

 

[WAYNO]

POOF!

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Wayno, I heard what you said "pre-POOF" and while I agree it's unfortunate that the hobby has attracted those who will submit "enhanced evaluations" of their offerings, it does nevertheless occur. In any "collectible" market there will always be those who want to make the big score on someone who might not be "up-to-speed" on all the details. As you point out, we try to disseminate valid criticism where indicated, but yet discourage such actions in our own classified section. Does muddy the water a trifle.

Can't help it, but . . . "Poof, the magic Dragoon" w/apologies to PP&M.

 

[Ruger45]

Wayno, I heard what you said "pre-POOF" and while I agree it's unfortunate that the hobby has attracted those who will submit "enhanced evaluations" of their offerings, it does nevertheless occur. In any "collectible" market there will always be those who want to make the big score on someone who might not be "up-to-speed" on all the details. As you point out, we try to disseminate valid criticism where indicated, but yet discourage such actions in our own classified section. Does muddy the water a trifle.

Can't help it, but . . . "Poof, the magic Dragoon" w/apologies to PP&M.

The other thing that one runs into often is the seller just plane doesn't know what he has is a conman item. They look it up and find one that looks just like the one they have that sold for XXX and automatically think theirs has the same value. And is Rare or some other neat buzz word never realizing that what they have is one of 10 thousand and that one that sold for a high dollar amount was to some guy who needed that one for a pair or that one was so and so's gun. That just wandered way off the organelle topic. LOL

 

[pete44ru]

I just don't get the dis-trust.

Sounds like you and others are cheated on gun deals on a regular basis.

I must frequent better neighborhoods.

With all due respect, Wayne, I DO "get-it".

Maybe I acquired my "street smarts" growing up & hanging around on street corners in New York City, and maybe from military service, but I have it (and continue to use it).

If it walks like a duck, looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck - it must be a duck.........

Disingenuous sellers are what they are, and I've found it wise to just simply ignore them & go on to something else.


.

 

[Ka6otm]

I guess no gun is really "new" by some peoples definition. The factory owned it, a distributor owned it, a retailer owned it and now John Q Public Gunbuyer owns it.

If none of those owners fired it, modified it or scratched it ..... it's still NIB to me.

And to me also. I've got 8 Colts like that in the safe.

 

[Johnnu2]

It's sorta like the term "matching numbers" on a collector car. Doesn't mean a thing when "matching numbers" can be forged on any car part......... Gotta ask questions .... then only believe 10% of the answers. IMHO of course...J.

 

[gtxmonte]

What am I missing?

The part where it says it "has never had a 4473 filed on it".


You've applied some value, or rather lack there of to an item because a paper form was filled out. NIB is NIB, no matter who's shelf it sat on. if you want to apply some car dealer "off the lot" devaluation to it, that's your business.

Really? Where did I say, or even imply, it was devalued?

I'm saying I interpret "Factory New" as just that ...new....as in never having been retailed. I make a distinction between NIB and LNIB or ANIB. If a gun marketed as "Factory New" is, in fact, pre-owned what do we call a gun that is not pre-owned?

If you wish to buy a previously owned gun or car that is being described as "Factory New", that's your business.

Since there are no hard and fast rules, there is no reason for anyone to "interpret" things as you do is the bottom line. You can call it whatever you want, but a new in the box, unfired gun, to many will be factory new. I wouldn't call it that and you might not call it that, but some will and it's strictly a matter of semantics

 

[Ruger45]

Since there are no hard and fast rules, there is no reason for anyone to "interpret" things as you do is the bottom line. You can call it whatever you want, but a new in the box, unfired gun, to many will be factory new. I wouldn't call it that and you might not call it that, but some will and it's strictly a matter of semantics

Another good point.

 

[mike campbell]

Yeah, I guess it depends on what you think the meaning of "is" is.

Good to know that a gun can be "factory new" no matter how many owners it has had. All of my guns are factory new.

 

[bogus bill]

Around 1990 I bought a brand new in the box with all the paperwork a Winchester model 63 that was made right near the end of production around 1956? I bought it from Jack First`s "The GUNSHOP" when he was in Lancaster California. A number of times I seen old long out of production there sold as brand new. In those days Jack seemed to have "in`s" to getting many old classic guns. For awhile he used to get old classic winchesters etc that were sent to England on some Lend Lease program durring world war two that americans sent over to the population thinkingh they were soon going to be invaded by the Germans. I moved to SW Utah and met a guy here that ran a gun shop for a short while. He worked for Jack in Lancaster as a gunsmith when I was there. He said Jack took him with him to England on gun buying trips to help select good guns to bring back. On those though, I didn't like all the extra proof marks. It seemed to me he had ways of buying guns from other gun-shops that went under or whatever. Through the years, early 70`s until he went to Rapid City I bought quite a few nice guns from his store. Thats where he started his gun parts business. I once bought a nickle S&W model 14 and they never were made in nickle. I seen where "15" was over stamped with "14" which they did have a nickle option on the 15`s. Difference was the 14 was 6" and the 15 is 4". Never say never!

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Here's more evidence of the situation, revealed right here on our site . . .

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=251864&p=2528631#p2528631

The Gunbroker offering goes to great lengths to proclaim this gun as "like new" and all the other superlatives usually employed to enhance a gun's appeal, and yet the photos alone reveal all is not kosher with the description. Our more learned members can spot things that put the lie to the exaggerations. Should they just ignore this in the interest of accepting the "inherent innocence" of our fellow man, or call a spade a . . . well . . . rusty shovel?

I'm voting for honest criticism every time. The big question will be, do we hold our own classifieds to the same standards?