very bad groups with my Security Six

[ulrik]

Hallo from Germany! This is my first post as a new member- please excuse my bad English! Well I need your help. After shooting for 20 years an S&W 686 with a 4" barrel, I sold the gun in favor for a used Security Six: Stainless 6" barrel, not standard sights- I suppose a Millett sight: a high blackend blade frontsight, behind undercut, a big rear sight, not the standard one similar the S&W rear sight, or similar the Accro rear sight on a Colt Python.
Wonderful gun- the Sec Six, light trigger, a grooved oversize match grip.
I asked Ruger, when this specific gun was produced, BTW it has the number beginnig with 156-xxxxx. Ruger said, it was the Model GA-36, produced in 1980.
But- I am sad: I was better with my short barreled S&W.
I am a reloader, using copper plated bullets- 180grains, truncated cone befor
7.0 Grains Kemira (or Vitavuori) KEM N340.
I am not able to put my groups into the middle of the target-
my gun shoots high and to the left on 11 o'clock. I screwed down both, the elevation screw down under, the windage screw far to the right.
Even my friend, a really top schooter, had with my gun the same results.
Please help me: Have I bought a junk gun- Monday production with a wrong, slanted screwed in barrel?
Should I sell this gun in favor for an old N-frame S&W?
I like the Ruger, but my results are not acceptable.
I thank you for all your replies!

 

[eveled]

Welcome to the forum! No apologies necessary your English is great!

How big is your group on the target?

Unfortunately those aftermarket sights tell me the last guy had the same problems you are having.

There are a lot of very smart people here. I'm sure one will have some suggestions. Ed.

 

[contender]

Welcome to the Forum!
Like my friend above,, do not worry about your english,, besides, we speak Ruger around here. (And I believe Ruger has German ancestry.)

I have a question. Are your bullets a "copper PLATED" or are they copper JACKETED? Copper plating is a thinner plating & isn't the same as jacketing. Plated bullets do the best at lead velocities, and not using hotter loads.

Next,, you mentioned different sights,, and yes,,, it's possible the previous owner had issues as well.
Check the muzzle under a magnifyer for ANY burrs, dings, etc that could throw off the accuracy.

Lastly,, if it is shooting tight groups,, just in an off center position,,, then any good gunsmith could SLIGHTLY turn the barrel to adjust this.

 

[ADP3]

Happy to have you with us. Something else to look at is the bullet weight. A lighter bullet will print lower on the target. If lighter projectiles are available you may want to try a 158 grain or even lighter bullet.

Best Regards,
ADP3

 

[ulrik]

Happy to have you with us. Something else to look at is the bullet weight. A lighter bullet will print lower on the target. If lighter projectiles are available you may want to try a 158 grain or even lighter bullet.

Best Regards,
ADP3

--Thanks to you! Indeed I have shot the lighter bullets, which my friend also use (in his Python). In my Ruger also not great.
But I will try these lighter bullets and reload them with my Powder, apply my light taper crimp with my LEE equipment.
Then I will put in my feedback.

 

[ulrik]

How big is your group on the target?

Ed.

Well- offhand without a rest (a Ransom Rest would be of course optimal, but my shooting club don't has one)- my groupspray is about 6 inches.
I must confess, I am only an average good shooter, but my friend- some years younger than myself, is a top-shot and he also can't do it better with my Ruger.
I will give my Ruger a chance and will vary my reloads.
Thanks for your reply!

 

[ulrik]

I have a question. Are your bullets a "copper PLATED" or are they copper JACKETED? Check the muzzle under a magnifyer for ANY burrs, dings, etc that could throw off the accuracy.

Lastly,, if it is shooting tight groups,, just in an off center position,,, then any good gunsmith could SLIGHTLY turn the barrel to adjust this.

The bullets are plated- but are used in Germany by a lot of topshots and marksmen. These bullets are produced in Germany and are indeed thick plated- the producer names the bullets "High Speed" and they are able to reach velocity high as max loaded jacketed ones. There load table allows
high velocity - with the right powder.
But I reload not max- as possible- but about 10% under max.
The bore is like a mirror and the muzzle is also without burrs, dings or otherwise damaged.
If nothing helps- I will give the gun to a GOOD gunsmith. But finding such a man is difficult- It's Germany and not the USA!
Also thanks to you!

 

[ADP3]

One more thing that might improve accuracy is a major bore cleaning. You may have already done this but if the previous owner fired a lot of jacketed bullets there may be a lot of copper deposited in the bore. A bore with copper fouling looks clean at a quick glance. A good copper solvent will remove the fouling. Cleaning patches that come out with a green/blue color are sure signs of copper fouling. The copper deposits don't allow the rifling in the bore to get a proper grip on the bullet and accuracy suffers. This won't move your groups but it may tighten them up. Follow the directions on the copper solvent. Many of them will etch the bore if you leave them too long. Follow up with oiled patches and then dry ones.

Best Regards,
ADP3

 

[ulrik]

One more thing that might improve accuracy is a major bore cleaning. You may have already done this but if the previous owner fired a lot of jacketed bullets there may be a lot of copper deposited in the bore. ADP3

--Thank You! Indded I love my new/old Ruger and I will give my gun a chance, cleaning the bore as you suggest.

 

[VAdoublegunner]

First of all, Welcome.

Is your Ruger exhibiting good precision, i.e. tight grouping, but poor accuracy? If it is a lack of accuracy, then the sights are the most likely issue. If you are able to obtain and replace the aftermarket sights with factory sights or sights that are compatible/equivalent to the original factory sights, it may help relieve some of the issues. The Security Six can handle 180gr bullets at a moderate velocity and still be within acceptable range for sight adjustment. Also, as already recommended, a lower bullet weight will lower the point of impact if the sight setting is unchanged.

If the issue is one of precision then there are other issues to consider. Your charge seems reasonable for the bullet weight. Plated bullets usually perform at their best when loaded as if they were lead bullets. Although the plating may provide adequate protection from leading, they still have a softer base than jacketed bullets and may not obturate correctly if driven too hard, or for that matter too easily either. If your powder charge is at maximum for a jacketed bullet, you may wish to consider reducing it a bit to see if that improves precision. You may be able to then adjust your point of impact for better accuracy as well, since a slower bullet of equal weight will tend to impact differently. Often the change is more vertical, but I have also seen horizontal displacement of point of impact with velocity changes.

 

[ulrik]

Is your Ruger exhibiting good precision, i.e. tight grouping, but poor accuracy? quote]
Hallo and lot of thanks for your reply- going deep!
I think, my aftermarket Millet sights are real target sights with the elevation screw high and down to correct and also the windage screw far to both sides. The sight dosn't jiggle, it is rock stable.
In the meantime I suppose, I must build a specific load (I am a reloader since 30 years) for my Ruger. I WILL not believe, I have bought junk.
I will try the following:
Heavy plated bullets at low velocity, light bullets (plated 158 Grainer)
also at medium velocity, jacketed ones with full speed.
After testing these all I will put in a feedback to ALL of you -may I say- FRIENDS of this fine forum.
You all tried to help me- Therefore THANKS!

 

[mattsbox99]

Are you shooting .38 Special or .357 Magnum?

Generally, I've found Rugers like to be driven closer to maximum velocity. I'm not showing VV/Kemira N340 to be an optimal powder for either cartridge.

 

[Kanook]

Reloading wise I have found that a full charge of Accurate No.9 works great the heavier stuff.

My wife's Smiths like the 158grn and the Rugers like 180's

 

[RoninPA]

A couple different thoughts:

Rest the gun on its grip and prop it so the the gun is vertical, don't worry about the front sight yet, just get the frame positioned properly. Then looking from behind, sight along the top of the frame down the barrel to the front sight.

Does it appear to be canted left or right at all? The human eye can pick up some very small deviations but you don't want to be holding the gun, it needs to be properly set up and then let you eyes do the rest. If canted, then a trip to the gunsmith is in store. If not, then you work on the loads.

Next, try a good slow speed load. When I was shooting in competition (PPC) the pretty much standard load was this:

148 grain LHBWC (lead hollow base wad cutter)
.38 special case
Federal small pistol primers
2.5 grains of Red Dot

This load would push the bullet at just over 700 fps but was deadly accurate. Try something like this to first see exactly what your Ruger is doing. If it gives you good accuracy (showing the gun is not at fault) and you're happy with the results, then start working up loads for the heavier faster bullets.

Shoot you accuracy loads from some sort of a rest when developing them, it can be a sandbag, a bag of lead shot, most anything, just use something to take as much of the human factor out of the testing process as possible.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Ulrik, those targets look like a typical day at the range for me.

 

[Kevin]

Should Ulrik try some factory loads? I'm all for hand loading, but would some factory ammunition lead to better accuracy?

Something to establish a base line for future comparison?

 

[ulrik]

Are you shooting .38 Special or .357 Magnum?

Generally, I've found Rugers like to be driven closer to maximum velocity. I'm not showing VV/Kemira N340 to be an optimal powder for either cartridge.

First- WOW! So many replies to help me! But- this special VV Powder ist not bad. A lot of german marksmen reload with it AND the heavy bullets to compare country wide- in Germany. But most of them shoot S&W.
And- I hope today the sun will rise- MUST rise- I am going to the shooting range with different reloads: with VV340 from mild to medium and with my since 30 years beloved Bullseye (for my Colt Gold Cup).
I am anxious with Bullseye in combination with the (180 grs plated) heavy bullets- never tried it.
I will put in a feedback- as you say: Trial and error.

 

[ulrik]

Reloading wise I have found that a full charge of Accurate No.9 works great the heavier stuff.

My wife's Smiths like the 158grn and the Rugers like 180's

--good to read this! Indeed this Accurate stuff is available here at my gunshop.
It is a lot cheaper than the VV-powder and worth a try.
Thank you!

 

[ulrik]

A couple different thoughts:

Next, try a good slow speed load. When I was shooting in competition (PPC) the pretty much standard load was this:

148 grain LHBWC (lead hollow base wad cutter)
.38 special case
Federal small pistol primers
2.5 grains of Red Dot

--Hallo and thanks! Yes-also this will be an option. I must beg my friend, giving me some 38spec shells.
Though not having Red Dot, I think the all times good Bullseye will do it too.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Ulrik, Accurate #5 is an outstanding powder for the .38 Special and .357 magnum. Try 5.7 grains under a 158 grain lead bullet in a .38 Special case. You'll get excellent accuracy and really good velocity, ~900 fps out of my GP-100 with 4.2 inch barrel.

 

[Tellico]

ulrik
Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the new word "groupspray" I must borrow that for explaining my shooting.

 

[M'BOGO]

Ulrik,

Welcome, and so sorry to hear of your dilemma. One thing not mentioned is throats versus bore. Having no experience with Ruger double action revolvers, these dimensions are unknown to me. But it is feasable that your revolver could have tight throats, and a loose bore, which would not help accuracy in any way. But the groupspray could result from small slugs rattling down a loose bore. You might want to slug, or use pin gauges to check these dimensions.

 

[mr surveyor]

I agree with checking the cylinder throats. Several years ago I had a Used Security Six that seemed to exhibit the spray and pray conditions. After a couple of range trips, and sandbag resting at 15 yards I found that four rounds could be easily in the black, and two flyers .... every time. Having no pin guages, I used a cartridge, bullet nose into the "exit hole" of each cylinder throat. and suer enough there were four cylinders where the bullet inserted all the way to the brass and two that still showed a tiny amount of copper jacket still exposed. I did love the gun, but with my short fingers and inablilty to feel totally comfortable with it, the gun was traded. Otherwise, I would have had it properly reamed and adjusted.

 

[ulrik]

I agree with checking the cylinder throats. Having no pin guages, I used a cartridge, bullet nose into the "exit hole" of each cylinder throat.

---yes, so I did. My copperplated bullets were sold with a diameter of .357.
I pushed in a bullet (unloaded) in each chamber. I could it do without shaving the plating of the bullet, though it didn't "fall" down into the chambers. The chambers seem to have equal diameter.
I am thinking: As a reloader I can get hard cast bullets with a diameter of .358. That would be worth a try.
Or, if that doesn't help, I will reload real jacketed ones, the grip of the hard jacket schould be a help in a sloppy, long used barrel.

 

[ulrik]

ulrik
Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the new word "groupspray" I must borrow that for explaining my shooting.

I am sorry! But after putting in my first thread (as a "Kraut") I begged your pardon for my bad English. Indeed I should have to say: "Group spread".
But a little bit humor should be OK!

 

[M'BOGO]

ulrik
Welcome to the Forum and thanks for the new word "groupspray" I must borrow that for explaining my shooting.

I am sorry! But after putting in my first thread (as a "Kraut") I begged your pardon for my bad English. Indeed I should have to say: "Group spread".
But a little bit humor should be OK!

Don't worry about your English mastery.

I don't know about German, but English is constantly evolving, and hope to remember "groupspray". It is a very descriptive way of explaing a tendency of a rifled barrel to pattern, rather than group.

Have a great weekend Ulrik

 

[eveled]

I'm really hoping you get this figured out. I hate to see anybody unhappy with what should be such a fine revolver. Ed

 

[meshugunner]

Just a thought but have you checked the timing (alignment of the chambers with the barrel)? Do you find shavings around the forcing cone after shooting it?

 

[ulrik]

Just a thought but have you checked the timing (alignment of the chambers with the barrel)? Do you find shavings around the forcing cone after shooting it?

--no shavings around the cone. though- I reload copper plated pills.
All is clean, the timing is excellent: you know what I mean. Unloaded gun,
holding -a little bit fast- the cylinder after going single action: You hear two clicks: First the cylinder is fixed, second click the hammer is back an rested ready to fire. That is still irritating to me, that my Ruger is after 30 years absolute ok and top with his timing.
Now I arrive at a conclusion, that my Ruger don't like heavy bullets (copper plated 180 grs) or the gun (barrel) needs a bigger diameter: .358 or I must reload genuine jacketed ones, with the same diameter, but able to get (hard jacketed) a firm grip in the bore. I will do so, giving my otherwise fine gun a chance and report here about my extended testings.
Thank you!

 

[ulrik]

Just a thought but have you checked Now I arrive at a conclusion, that my Ruger don't like heavy bullets (copper plated 180 grs) or the gun (barrel) needs a bigger diameter: .358 Thank you!

Hallo you ALL! I promised to give you a feedback- now all my experiments were succsessful. I reloaded the lighter ones (158 grs) copper plated, reduced the otherwise safe and sugested quantity of powder.
My groups shrinked, so I can reach a group spread of 4 inches at a distance of 30 yards - only handheld on a sand bag- barrel unsupported.
The same reloads shot in the Python of my friend- as I said, a really marksman- grooped not so good as my Ruger. He shot both guns, but my Ruger was -indeed- better. I could not believe it.
But irritating was, that my groups out of the Ruger had vertical strings, narrow from left to right, but more spreading high and low.
After cleaning my Ruger, also removing the hammer (not necessary, but I would know the internal lockwork of the gun, which is new for me), I removed the wooden aftermarket target grip panels--- and there was missing the Grip Panel Dowel!
So the grip was not absolutely fixed and the gun could walk high and down!
After installing this pin- I made it from solid steel- another shooting trial.
NOW the groups shrinked even more, no high and down flyer anymore!
The groupspread was now 3 inches from a distance of 30 yard- well, not every day long, but my best group.
I am now happy and lucky with my Sec Six, and I am sure the Ruger will keep up for another term of 30 years.
After coming to a good end, I wish to say thanks to you all for your help!