Universal and Titegroup for .44 spcl, .38+P, and .357 mag

[Barkis]

I would appreciate hearing thoughts from folks about what has worked for them with the powders in the calibers listed in the header.

The .38+P loads would be shot in my 38+P LCR under 140, 148, 155 grain DEWCs and a 158 grain RNFP. The Hogdon site does list loads for these bullet weights, but not for DEWCs. I've been using Bullseye for these loads, but am running out and BE is not available locally. Titegroup is, so I'm looking to try a different powder. I have never used Unique as it has not been available here, but Universal is, and I understand that it is a comparable replacement for Unique. I have a NMBH in .357 as well. Perhaps these powders will work in that cartridge.

I will be shooting 240 RNFPs and 250 Keiths in the .44s (An NMBH and Charter Arms Bulldog). I have heard that Universal is as good as Unique. I have also read that some load Universal identically to Unique in the .44 (i.e., the 7.5 grain Unique "Skeeter" load can be mimicked with 7.5 grains of Universal.) Is this the case?

Thanks,
Barkis

 

[Rclark]

I have also read that some load Universal identically to Unique in the .44 (i.e., the 7.5 grain Unique "Skeeter" load can be mimicked with 7.5 grains of Universal.) Is this the case?

Yes. That's the case. Over my chronograph:

.44Special flattop BH 5 1/2"
7.5g Unique__, 240g SWC, CCI-300, 1033fps
7.5g Universal, 240g SWC, CCI-300, 1037fps
7.5g 20/28___, 240g SWC, CCI-300, 1050fps

5.5g Titegroup, 240 SWC, CCI-300, 917fps, 6 SD, 23 ES, 15 shots, Accurate

I don't shoot 38s, so no help there. However Universal works well in the .357 too. I like 6.0g Universal under 158g SWC for 1096fps out of 6 1/2" barrel.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Those powders work well for those calibers and bullets except if you want top velocity in the 357mag you should use a slower powder like Blue Dot, Accurate #9 or H-110/W296. I have used Universal in all those calibers and many more.

Universal is a most versatile powder. You can load down to very low velocities (cowboy loads) with it. It is clean, easy to meter and works just like Unique only better. Be sure to use Hodgdon data and don't just borrow loads from another powder.

http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

 

[Barkis]

Thank you Rclark and Jimbo357mag,

I appreciate the replies. I have Blue Dot and for my magnum loads. I was looking for faster burning powder replacement for the Bullseye and Red Dot I have nearly used up, hence the Titegroup, as well as a medium range powder (Universal) which I understand gives good velocity at lesser pressures than the faster burning powders when you get in the +P range.

I was wondering if there is a huge pressure difference between Unique and Universal even though they give similar velocities in .44 special.

I am also wondering if the Unique data in .38 would translate to Universal as it appears to do for the .44 special. On the Hogdon reloading page, max 38+P for a 158 grain jacketed bullet is 4.7 grains and lists a pressure of 19,200 and a velocity of 837fps. Almost SAAMI max for 38+P. I don't shoot jacketed bullets, but cast. Lyman 49 shows a 158 grain RNFP having a max load of 4.7 and max pressure of 15,800 with a velocity of 867fps. There is no +P data listed for either the 158 gr RNFP or the similar 160 gr RN. There is, however, a +P load for a 170gr SWC, 4.8 gr, which lists a pressure of 18,700 and velocity of 940. I'd like to get my 158 gr cast RNFP in the 900fps range out of my 4 5/8 Ruger NMBH. These numbers seem to be all over the place, at least I am having a difficult time seeing any relationship between them. Do you think getting 900fps is safely doable with Universal under a 158 gr bullet?

 

[Rclark]

If you look at a burn rate chart you'll find Universal and Unique right next to each other. Also it has been 'universally' understood over the years that you can load the two powders one for the other. I've found it to be so in all the cartridges that I load ( don't load .38s). Of course YMMV. Works for me and as far as I am concerned I've proved it to my satisfaction in my guns. Do your research .

 

[Jimbo357mag]

There is a 38 special - 158gr lead bullet with Universal on the Hodgdon website that goes over 900fps.
http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/data/pistol

BULLET WEIGHT
158 GR. CAST LSWC

Hodgdon Universal .358" 1.475" start - 3.5gr - 756fps --- 9,600 CUP ------- Max - 4.5gr - 974fps --- 16,700 CUP

I think you could load 4.5gr or go up a couple of tenths and get exactly what you want with Universal.
I shoot 5.0gr with a 158gr copper plated/lead bullet in a 38 case as a P+ load in a Blackhawk and in my GP and SP guns. There is plenty of room with those guns.
I also shoot 6.0gr of Universal in 357mag brass with a 158gr copper plated/lead bullet as a medium shooting load. Same as Rclark.

You will see differences between Unique and Universal loads in magnum cartridges at the high end of the pressure curve. They are different powders and do not share identical load data.

 

[Barkis]

Thanks again Rclark and Jimbo357mag! I appreciate your taking the time to educate me.

Regards,
Barkis

 

[Rclark]

at the high end of the pressure curve.

I guess I never have went there, so I don't know . My tests with .357, .44Mag, .44 Special .45 Colt in the range I tested were virtually identical. I don't use bleeding edge loads with medium powders. I move to 2400 and other slower powders for the hotter stuff. Always work up your loads especially when in doubt or if it is a new powder to you.

 

[Mobuck]

I use and like TiteGroup in .380, 9mm, 38/357, and 44SP. The main point with TG is using care to prevent a double charge(same with many other high density, fast burning powders). I stick to the middle of the pack loads-TG is not a powder to play around with. If you want hotter loads, use a slower powder.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

at the high end of the pressure curve.

I guess I never have went there, so I don't know . My tests with .357, .44Mag, .44 Special .45 Colt in the range I tested were virtually identical. I don't use bleeding edge loads with medium powders. I move to 2400 and other slower powders for the hotter stuff. Always work up your loads especially when in doubt or if it is a new powder to you.

I don't go there either but I do notice that Alliant doesn't list high pressure loads with Unique and Hodgdon does. In fact I don't believe Alliant even prints the pressure of their 'fomulas'.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=240&shellid=33&bulletid=52&bdid=157

Hodgdon takes Universal right up to the Max with most cartridges and records the pressures.
44magnum 240 GR. LSWC CAST Hodgdon Universal .430" - 1.620" - Max. - 10.2gr - 1,276fps - 37,500 CUP
But like you said there are better powders for that.

 

[Sbeduckman]

I use 3.5gr TG in 38 special for a nice middle-high end load under 158gr lswc. They're hot enough to know you pulled the trigger, but still real comfortable to shoot. My plinking 44 mag loads are 9.0gr TG or 11gr Unique under 250gr Keith. TG meters perfectly in my measure and gives very accurate drops. I love the stuff. I can't answer your question on +p 38, though I have loaded quite a few TG 44 special, just don't recall the load right now.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

My plinking 44 mag loads are 9.0gr TG or 11gr Unique under 250gr Keith.

11.0gr of Unique with a 250gr Keith in the 44magnum is max from Alliant.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=250&shellid=33&bulletid=47&bdid=158
It does show you how varied Alliant 'recipies' are. 7.0gr Unique for a 240gr lead bullet and 11.0gr for a 250gr lead bullet. ???WTHeck.

11.0gr of Universal would put you over Max. pressure with a 240 or 250gr lead bullet in the 44magnum. Isn't reloading fun?

 

[Sbeduckman]

My plinking 44 mag loads are 9.0gr TG or 11gr Unique under 250gr Keith.

11.0gr of Unique with a 250gr Keith in the 44magnum is max from Alliant.
http://www.alliantpowder.com/reloaders/RecipePrint.aspx?gtypeid=1&weight=250&shellid=33&bulletid=47&bdid=158
It does show you how varied Alliant 'recipies' are. 7.0gr Unique for a 240gr lead bullet and 11.0gr for a 250gr lead bullet. ???WTHeck.

11.0gr of Universal would put you over Max. pressure with a 240 or 250gr lead bullet in the 44magnum. Isn't reloading fun?

It is odd. Lyman manual shows 9 something as min 13 as max. Lee manual shows 11 as max with a 240 cast but higher with 250. 11 is pretty comfortable, certainly not a thumper. I generally load "plinking" rounds right in the middle of published ranges to allow discrepancy (if there is any) through the powder measure.

 

[daveg.inkc]

I like HP-38 for .38 Special. I loaded .357 M today bought 170 FMJ Sierra with 15 gr. of 296 Win. One load I found for .38 Spec 125 gr with the HP-38 powder

 

[mikewriter]

I tend to load heavy bullets at lower velocities, but use 8.5 gr. Titegroup in .44 mag for about 1080 fps with a 300 gr hard cast. In .44 Special, 4.7 - 4.8 gr Titegroup gives me 770 fps with a 255 gr WRN hard cast. Both give very good accuracy, low recoil. (I also load .480 Ruger with Titegroup for around 1050 fps with 375 - 415 gr hard cast).

I like Universal for sub sonic loads for my suppressed .44 "magnum" hog gun with 335 gr HC.

 

[Rook]

I've tried them all over the years and now I only have 2 powers that I use for handgun loads. Hodgdon's HP-38 for everything low powered and H110 for all my Mag loads. It's clean, it meters good in auto powder measures and it makes keeping up with what powders I have simple.