Buying gun's, I have been buying and selling some guns for over 50 years, I'm not a dealer. because of the GREED I no longer will buy any used gun's, Our new guns are junk Ruger and Savage are the only decent ones left, I will go to my once a year gun show just to see the GREED The last 3 gun shows I went to I did not buy one thing, what I was looking for was not their, Do you all remember when you could buy GUN PART'S at a gun show?? I stopped looking at the prices of gun's at gun show's years ago I could buy new cheaper than their beat up junk.
THAT'S IT I QUIT! (RANT)
- Thread starter chuck
- Start date
I am one that will not pay more than I want for anything...gun or otherwise. If I find a gun that I want and it is within my price range I buy it...if not let someone else. Go on Gunbroker and see what some of the Ruger single action revolvers (mostly what I look at) sell for. Some go for a good reasonable price and others are WAY out there. Pick and choose is my motto.chuck said:
w5lx
Single-Sixer
chuck said:
Chuck,
That's pretty much capitalism at work. Seller and buyer have to agree on a price to make a sale. Most of the over-priced stuff will be for sale over and over again because it doesn't sell. Eventually the price will be reduced to the point a buyer is willing to pay. If you are expecting to see S&W 19's in mint condition for $250, or Colt 1911's for $450, those days are LONG over. I go to a lot of gun shows and most of the time don't buy a thing. But I enjoy looking and seeing friends. And every now and then I will find a bargain that makes it all worthwhile.
mohavesam
Hawkeye
Yeah, guns are too expensive... usually ranted by the kinda guy who has a full cable package, drives a new 4wd pickup that never goes off pavement, goes to multiple spectator-sporting events, and owns golf clubs (more than one?). He aAlso usually rants about the price/availability of ammo but still doesn't own a loading machine.
Even Mosin-Nagant 91/30s are upwards of two hundred bucks, and cheap mil-surp is pretty much a thing of the past. Guns and shooting will never be cheaper than today.
Frisbees are still cheap, and will at least get you off the couch.
Even Mosin-Nagant 91/30s are upwards of two hundred bucks, and cheap mil-surp is pretty much a thing of the past. Guns and shooting will never be cheaper than today.
Frisbees are still cheap, and will at least get you off the couch.
DA_TriggR4Ruger
Hunter
EXACTLY. Mohavesam. I couldn't have summed it up better!
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Jim Puke
Hunter
Fox Mike said:
X 2
Same as it has always been...my money and I will only pay what I it is worth to me.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
chuck said:
Hi,
And you know what? Some disgruntled soul was ranting about the exact same thing 50+ years ago when you bought your first gun!
"They just don't make 'em like they used to. Nothing lasts these days. The oil companies are ripping us off for gas. Kids don't learn anything in school today. The girls aren't as pretty as they were when I was in high school. You call that music?" How far do we need to go to prove human nature with its propensity to bellyache about how "yesterday was better than today" is one of the few consistent aspects of our existence? :roll:
Rick C
Ray Newman
Blackhawk
RC: BINGO!
ChiefMuzz
Blackhawk
stevemb said:
I've purchased a couple guns of recent just by taking advantage of online deals. If I want something particular I'll post for it and usually you can get some good offers that way. I think the thing to remember is that gun shows are for sellers, not buyers. You create a captive audience all looking for the same "things". If you want good deals, they'll be harder to find in seller friendly places. The same with gunbroker - it's an auction site which means you get to pay either what the seller asks - or $1 more than the next person thinks is reasonable.
I can understand the frustration though. You just have to adapt to the newer way of finding deals. Walking into a gunshop or showing up at the gun show just isn't what it used to be. YMMV
Jim Puke
Hunter
ChiefMuzz said:
I have bought more smoking deals on gunbroker this year than any year since I started buying guns there. Gotta remember...set your price and stick to it...keep at it and before long you will get what you are looking for at the price you are willing to pay.
I just found a great example an add in the paper a guy has a Ruger tang safety 257 Roberts never fired wants $700.00, I would like to have it and I have the money but I will not pay that much, so he can just keep it or find another sucker.
jgt
Buckeye
I don't have cable or satellite. Never attend big sport events or go where there are crowds much. Don't shop in malls. I had 4wd and drove off road a lot, had multiple loading, casting, swaging equipment. Never owned golf clubs. Back packed, horse/mule packed, hunted National Forests and wilderness areas. Attended many gun shows as a buyer and as a seller. I can tell you the prices asked at shows today are a reflection of what scalpers got during the Obama panic and they are still thinking anyone walking in the door is ignorant. But, I also hear them crying to each other about not selling any guns. So I think greed is the correct term to describe most of these bozos that set up at gun shows today. If I were to point the finger at the cause, I would say people look at on line auctions and see a gun go for a ridiculous price and want that for the one they have. They disregard all the other guns like it that did not bring that kind of money. The other thing is they look in the blue book and pick the 100% category price listed there and ask it for their 60% or 70% gun. I too, leave them on the tables, but it gets old having to look at model 28 Highway Patrolman with a $600 to $900 price tag when there is no standard I know of that would call for such a high price. Certainly not supply and demand. You can tell your self all that stuff if you want to, it is a free country, but please stop shoveling that Bovine Scatology to the rest of us because we just might know what we are talking about.
m657
Buckeye
"when there is no standard I know of that would call for such a high price. Certainly not supply and demand. "
The only standard, is what the buyer is willing to pay. That's the demand part of the equation.
If the seller has it too high, he will find he's got more supply than there is demand.
Seems to work in my area.
I recently ran across a near perfect model of something I reallyReallyREALLY wanted.
They were asked a lot. Too much. At least, MORE than I was willing to pay. They still have it.
I didn't get too worked up. After all, ME wanting to give LESS than the owner believes it's worth, is just another form of 'greed'....isn't it?
The only standard, is what the buyer is willing to pay. That's the demand part of the equation.
If the seller has it too high, he will find he's got more supply than there is demand.
Seems to work in my area.
I recently ran across a near perfect model of something I reallyReallyREALLY wanted.
They were asked a lot. Too much. At least, MORE than I was willing to pay. They still have it.
I didn't get too worked up. After all, ME wanting to give LESS than the owner believes it's worth, is just another form of 'greed'....isn't it?
Ruger45
Blackhawk
To add how many of these over priced guns has anyone laid out the cash for an offer? I have seen it time and again a $400.00 gun priced at $700.00 for the show and just as soon as someone clears leather with a $400.00 offer the gun is sold.
Found a revolver on Gunbroker that I wanted. I waited to see if anyone else was going to bid. No one did. The seller put it up again and again no one bid. He wanted $x60.00 + 20 shipping. I contacted him and offer him his $x60.00 to INCLUDE shipping. He wrote me back that we had a deal. Sent him my $$ and my C&R info and now am the owner. One must be selective and patient. Remember that Ruger made a gazillion of almost each model. If you don't see what you are looking for, at the price you want to spend, then wait and watch. Sooner or later one WILL appear.
Ruger45
Blackhawk
RightFox Mike said:
volshooter
Buckeye
Agree with all the posts. I cannot find a dealer willing to get these deals for me. What bothers me the most is "where are the gunsmith's"???????
I cannot find one within 50 miles to work on my stuff, did they all quit?
I wish I had a FFL to take advantage of the great deals I run across on the web!
I cannot find one within 50 miles to work on my stuff, did they all quit?
I wish I had a FFL to take advantage of the great deals I run across on the web!
Jim Puke
Hunter
Fox Mike said:
That is what I do...deal with the seller when the gun does not sell. You will be surprised at what dealers will take for some of the guns...nice guns...when they go around about 3 times without selling. And, my offers are always...shipping included in the offer.
Colonialgirl
Hawkeye
volshooter said:
We just had a New gun shop open up near us and stopped in the other day. The guy had a small assortment of Pistols, some rifles (ak', ar's and bolt action) and a few shot guns. A nice assortment of holsters, sights of various types and some NICE scopes at good prices. The other n was that he had FOUR Gunsmith Certifications hanging on the wall including one for Law Enforcement Armorer. A small assortment of Ammunition at Non-Gouging prices and he was quite willing to talk and show you things. Said he opened his shop and was in the BLACK the first quarter.
If you are in the area of Zephyrhills Florida, Stop in at:
Grey Wolf Armory
( https://www.facebook.com/pages/Grey-Wolf-Armory-LLC/656402561109670?sk=info )
32733 Eiland Blvd #104
Wesley Chapel, FL
Jeff Webb, Owner and Gunsmith
It says he'll have a website up soon.
contender
Ruger Guru
At gunshows,,, the dealers are basically buying retail sales places. They have the expense of tables, (which have risen over the years like everything else.) Then they have travel expenses such as motel, meals, gas to pay. Add in the fact that they are working 3-1/2 days, (minimum) to be there, (that's an expense,) it all adds up.
Let's say you buy 2 tables at a gun show. Cost will be an average of $60 for each table; =$120.00
Next, a minimum of 2 nights in a motel; average about $140.00. (Some dealers will share a room, but if you have anybody to help you, while they may split the room, they will want to either sell stuff too, or expect you to cover their motel.)
Travel, in a truck say 100 miles one way, figure you'll have to buy gas for the trip, and be able to go to & from the motel & meals, say a tank of gas, = $75.00.
Meals, figure friday, (travel & dinner before the show,) Saturday & Sunday, & the trip home, Average 9 meals at $10 each; = $90.00.
So, to be a dealer at a gun show, the approximate average cost now it about; $425.00.
Now, I know many dealers figure out ways to cut expenses, & do it for less, but other dealers who buy 4, 5, 10 tables, hire help, will spend a lot more.
It's a retail sales location with overhead.
Now, figure in the cost of your merchandise, your wages for working, (remember, you will spend a minimum of 3-1/2 days time,) and you can see why a dealer tries to get as much as he can out of any product.
How many of you are willing to spend several hours of your time packing up a bunch of salable wares, drive to wherever, spend time setting up a retail sales location, be there from 7 am until 5 pm on Saturday, back again at 8 am on Sunday & be there until 5 pm, then drive home, unload etc, figure out you spent over $400 in expenses, and look at the fact you have $100 in your pocket for all your time & effort?
If a dealer is lucky & makes an average of $50 per gun, he has to sell 9 guns to break even on expenses. If you figure 35 hours of your time, at a fair wage of, say $12 per hour, (that's another $420.00) you suddenly see why many try HARD to get as much as they can out of any firearm. That's 18 sales (minimum,) to make it worth doing.
Are these dealers scalpers? Sometimes. But often, they too pay too much for a firearm, and try to get a little something out of it. Throw in the internet, where shoppers can buy XYZ firearm for $500 sight unseen. They (the buyers) do not know exactly what condition the XYZ firearm is in, as they can not handle it & inspect it. Yet, if they go to a gun show or even a gun shop, and it's $525, out the door, in hand, they resist.
I'm not bashing all gun buyers, nor am I defending all dealers. I'm just trying to point out a fact of business that many do not see.
I used to set up at a gun show that was a 2 hour drive for me.
When I started, the show promoter found a local motel, set it up for us to get cheaper rooms, and kept the cost of the tables down. He felt it was better to have a fully sold out table space, vs. charging more per table & having less folks there. Ten years ago, I could do that show for about $225 for the weekend, NOT counting my wages. Then he sold his show, and expenses immediately went up.
No cheaper motels, & table costs went up.
Now, I did it as a way to enjoy my hobby, and to sell off stuff I no longer needed, (mostly firearm related stuff & a few guns,) and get me into the show to see if I could find a "deal" on an old Ruger.
I quit as it began to cost too much, and not enough return for me. Oh, I still occasionally found a Ruger to buy, or some other item I wanted/needed. But, it was very demanding on my time. Add in the fact that too many "pin-hookers" (a term from a gun show buddy, RIP Ralph) coined for the guys who bring guns to sell or swap, as they walk around. Guys who ambush people coming into the shows, BEFORE they get to us dealers inside, & get the good deals. Guys who live nearby, go home every night, have NO expenses for tables or motels, & then come to me to sell me that Ruger I wanted.
As a dealer, pin-hookers kept us from having a chance at decent deals to where we could make a few bucks or get a gun we wanted.
Some gun shows have curbed some of this, but now, the pin-hookers get nearby the entry area, & unless you have a front table, you'll still miss many good guns. PLUS, they block the aisles, use your table to lay their gun on while they look at another gun, put their coffee cup on your table, block a potential buyer from your table etc.
I saw a steady decline in the quality of gun shows because of this.
To cover expenses,,, many dealers have to charge more to try & make $$$.
Remember, it's a business transaction & approach it as such.
But, I can also agree with a lot of the above info.
Local guy places an ad in a local rag expecting retail out of his gun when it's condition is obviously used. Or, as noted, 100% of Blue Book pricing for a 60%-80% gun. Or, read the description for a rare variation & assume the gun you are selling is one of them & not the "common" variation.
I do get it, in how it can be discouraging to BOTH sides.
A question was about good gunsmiths. If you want to make a small fortune in gunsmithing,,, start with a big fortune.
It's HARD to make a living as a gunsmith. People think; It'll only take 5 minutes to do XYZ. Actual machining may only take 5 minutes, but set-up may take 1-4 hours. Time is money & most can not charge for the true amount of time they spend on a gun, or nobody would use their services. A good example;
A friend asked me to mount & zero a scope on his rifle. He had a different scope, & had just bought the rifle, used, and it had a scope on it. Normally an easy job.
Yet, here is what I found. A set of Leupold bases & rings. The rear base was mounted on the front set of screw holes, and the front mount was on the rear. The rear base was missing a screw, (hidden by the ring.) Ok, let's swap them around.
But wait, once you do, the elevation difference in the action to bases did not allow the scope to sit level. Oh, there is more. It was a long action rifle, and the scope tube wasn't long enough to fit in between the standard rings. So, we now needed an offset ring,, and a higher rear ring. And my friend needed a bit of longer eye relief for his glasses.
Checking 4 different scopes, a different set of rings, a spare screw & 4 hours time invested, a gunsmith would have to charge about $150 to do this & make $$. ($30 per hour & a set of rings.) He is a friend, and all he spent was for the rings.
I'm not a gunsmith & I do not make my living as such.
But, a gunsmith would not be able to charge this amount either, or he'd lose customers. As such, he eats the cost of his time to do this.
Ever notice that the custom gun makers charge a lot AND take a lot of time? There is a reason,,,,,!
As noted above,,, the days of $200 Rugers, $250 S&W's, or even $300 Colts are mostly GONE! Yes, occasionally we find a smoking deal from a non-gun owner just wanting rid of something. But, with the internet, even those days are getting harder to find.
We can gripe & complain about the amount we spend, we can do our best to work the best deal from a gun show, a gun shop, or a private sale. But it all comes down to this;
No product out there is worth more than the buyer is willing to give & the seller is willing to take. It takes 2 parties to make a sale.
Let's say you buy 2 tables at a gun show. Cost will be an average of $60 for each table; =$120.00
Next, a minimum of 2 nights in a motel; average about $140.00. (Some dealers will share a room, but if you have anybody to help you, while they may split the room, they will want to either sell stuff too, or expect you to cover their motel.)
Travel, in a truck say 100 miles one way, figure you'll have to buy gas for the trip, and be able to go to & from the motel & meals, say a tank of gas, = $75.00.
Meals, figure friday, (travel & dinner before the show,) Saturday & Sunday, & the trip home, Average 9 meals at $10 each; = $90.00.
So, to be a dealer at a gun show, the approximate average cost now it about; $425.00.
Now, I know many dealers figure out ways to cut expenses, & do it for less, but other dealers who buy 4, 5, 10 tables, hire help, will spend a lot more.
It's a retail sales location with overhead.
Now, figure in the cost of your merchandise, your wages for working, (remember, you will spend a minimum of 3-1/2 days time,) and you can see why a dealer tries to get as much as he can out of any product.
How many of you are willing to spend several hours of your time packing up a bunch of salable wares, drive to wherever, spend time setting up a retail sales location, be there from 7 am until 5 pm on Saturday, back again at 8 am on Sunday & be there until 5 pm, then drive home, unload etc, figure out you spent over $400 in expenses, and look at the fact you have $100 in your pocket for all your time & effort?
If a dealer is lucky & makes an average of $50 per gun, he has to sell 9 guns to break even on expenses. If you figure 35 hours of your time, at a fair wage of, say $12 per hour, (that's another $420.00) you suddenly see why many try HARD to get as much as they can out of any firearm. That's 18 sales (minimum,) to make it worth doing.
Are these dealers scalpers? Sometimes. But often, they too pay too much for a firearm, and try to get a little something out of it. Throw in the internet, where shoppers can buy XYZ firearm for $500 sight unseen. They (the buyers) do not know exactly what condition the XYZ firearm is in, as they can not handle it & inspect it. Yet, if they go to a gun show or even a gun shop, and it's $525, out the door, in hand, they resist.
I'm not bashing all gun buyers, nor am I defending all dealers. I'm just trying to point out a fact of business that many do not see.
I used to set up at a gun show that was a 2 hour drive for me.
When I started, the show promoter found a local motel, set it up for us to get cheaper rooms, and kept the cost of the tables down. He felt it was better to have a fully sold out table space, vs. charging more per table & having less folks there. Ten years ago, I could do that show for about $225 for the weekend, NOT counting my wages. Then he sold his show, and expenses immediately went up.
No cheaper motels, & table costs went up.
Now, I did it as a way to enjoy my hobby, and to sell off stuff I no longer needed, (mostly firearm related stuff & a few guns,) and get me into the show to see if I could find a "deal" on an old Ruger.
I quit as it began to cost too much, and not enough return for me. Oh, I still occasionally found a Ruger to buy, or some other item I wanted/needed. But, it was very demanding on my time. Add in the fact that too many "pin-hookers" (a term from a gun show buddy, RIP Ralph) coined for the guys who bring guns to sell or swap, as they walk around. Guys who ambush people coming into the shows, BEFORE they get to us dealers inside, & get the good deals. Guys who live nearby, go home every night, have NO expenses for tables or motels, & then come to me to sell me that Ruger I wanted.
As a dealer, pin-hookers kept us from having a chance at decent deals to where we could make a few bucks or get a gun we wanted.
Some gun shows have curbed some of this, but now, the pin-hookers get nearby the entry area, & unless you have a front table, you'll still miss many good guns. PLUS, they block the aisles, use your table to lay their gun on while they look at another gun, put their coffee cup on your table, block a potential buyer from your table etc.
I saw a steady decline in the quality of gun shows because of this.
To cover expenses,,, many dealers have to charge more to try & make $$$.
Remember, it's a business transaction & approach it as such.
But, I can also agree with a lot of the above info.
Local guy places an ad in a local rag expecting retail out of his gun when it's condition is obviously used. Or, as noted, 100% of Blue Book pricing for a 60%-80% gun. Or, read the description for a rare variation & assume the gun you are selling is one of them & not the "common" variation.
I do get it, in how it can be discouraging to BOTH sides.
A question was about good gunsmiths. If you want to make a small fortune in gunsmithing,,, start with a big fortune.
It's HARD to make a living as a gunsmith. People think; It'll only take 5 minutes to do XYZ. Actual machining may only take 5 minutes, but set-up may take 1-4 hours. Time is money & most can not charge for the true amount of time they spend on a gun, or nobody would use their services. A good example;
A friend asked me to mount & zero a scope on his rifle. He had a different scope, & had just bought the rifle, used, and it had a scope on it. Normally an easy job.
Yet, here is what I found. A set of Leupold bases & rings. The rear base was mounted on the front set of screw holes, and the front mount was on the rear. The rear base was missing a screw, (hidden by the ring.) Ok, let's swap them around.
But wait, once you do, the elevation difference in the action to bases did not allow the scope to sit level. Oh, there is more. It was a long action rifle, and the scope tube wasn't long enough to fit in between the standard rings. So, we now needed an offset ring,, and a higher rear ring. And my friend needed a bit of longer eye relief for his glasses.
Checking 4 different scopes, a different set of rings, a spare screw & 4 hours time invested, a gunsmith would have to charge about $150 to do this & make $$. ($30 per hour & a set of rings.) He is a friend, and all he spent was for the rings.
I'm not a gunsmith & I do not make my living as such.
But, a gunsmith would not be able to charge this amount either, or he'd lose customers. As such, he eats the cost of his time to do this.
Ever notice that the custom gun makers charge a lot AND take a lot of time? There is a reason,,,,,!
As noted above,,, the days of $200 Rugers, $250 S&W's, or even $300 Colts are mostly GONE! Yes, occasionally we find a smoking deal from a non-gun owner just wanting rid of something. But, with the internet, even those days are getting harder to find.
We can gripe & complain about the amount we spend, we can do our best to work the best deal from a gun show, a gun shop, or a private sale. But it all comes down to this;
No product out there is worth more than the buyer is willing to give & the seller is willing to take. It takes 2 parties to make a sale.
jgt
Buckeye
I am going to say this and if it steps on anyone's toes that is not my intent. It is to explain why we have complaints about gun shows today.
Guns shows started when hobbyist got together to swap or sell guns, parts, dies, or any items they no longer used. It was an opportunity to sell the gun you were no longer into and use the money to help buy the one you wish you had bought before they quit making. Usually participants initial meeting took place at a gun club where they hatched out the idea of holding such an event. Table fees were a way to pay the rent on a facility and there was not an entry or parking fee. There were no "circuit" traders. You know the ones that make the "circuit". Occasionally a person would make friends at an event and his friend would invite him to come to their show and put him up for the weekend in his home. The practice caught on and spread. In order to qualify, a table had to have a high percentage of it's wares be guns or gun related items. You could sell a lantern or fishing reel, but the bulk of the items for sell had to be gun related.
When the '68 gun control act came into being, gun shops were licensed and could only sell from the address on their license. They lobbied hard to be able to set up at gun shows and after donating to enough campaign funds of the right people were able to accomplish their goal. That is when gun shows started to go downhill.
Next promoters got into gun shows as a way to make money and the guys that bought up a bunch of tables had more influence with promoters. The gun shop crowd tried their best to push the individual table holders out of the shows and complained they had an unfair advantage and were undercutting the gun shops on pricing. After that phase passed, a lot of the individuals had quit going to "PROMOTED" show so the promoters started selling tables to people who sold totally unrelated items like sunglasses and jewelry. Soon the only table holders were gun shops, people who were retired and used it for an excuse to get away from home, and flea market types who knew little and cared little about the guns they were dealing in. It was just merchandise to them. That is why today, you are lucky to see a table with gun parts or junk boxes of gun related items such as small bore gages, parts, sights etc. You may still see a hobbyist once in a while, but he is paying a high table fee and is from the area. The worst part of the whole scene is it got to be totally focused on money. At the start, it was about recovering as much of your investment as you could to invest toward the next gun you wanted. Most people lost money because of the depreciation on their used gun. They were happy to get fair value to reinvest in the next gun they could find for a collection or for that gun they wanted, but was not made anymore. They could not go to the local gun shop and have as good a chance to buy it as at a gathering of so many gun people in one place. If they made money on one, it was offset by the one they lost on, but the focus was on gun trading and not on money. Today the number one topic I hear discussed at gun shows is money. I can't tell you how many conversations I heard around the concession stand before a show opened from some table holder bragging about the sucker he low balled a gun off of and sold for a big profit. Or some widow he got to first after her husband died and left all his guns. Or the practice of selling to wetbacks who pooled their dollars to buy one of their guns. The day came when that type outnumbered the hobbyist by a wide margin.
Legally a person without a license cannot buy a gun for resell without a license. To buy a gun at a show, clean it up, put a price tag on it, and lay it on your table will get you arrested by the ATF if they see you do it. I see it happening a lot, nowdays. That is because most are not buying a gun they wanted to take home and shoot, it is to try to make money on. They stab every honest gun trader in the back when they engage in this illegal activity and are the reason the Feds are trying to shut gun shows down altogether.
Before the '68 gun control act you could do that, but few did it because that was not why they were there. Today, it is against the law to engage in and it gives the antis fuel for their collective fire. Ask a table holder how a gun on his table shoots and most often he can not tell you, because he has not shot it and only bought it to resell. It is not his gun he is selling, it's his merchandise. Sure he is trying to make a profit and he wants it to come out of your pocket. That isn't even realistic in the climate that has been created by gun show promoters and dealers. Small town USA still holds a few and they are more like the original gun shows, but still have the "circuit" table holders trying to make their profit off you. Most fall into the "retired, using it to get out of the house" category. But, you are still more likely to find locals who are there to sell one they have grown tired of so they can buy one they want to try next.
There you have it. The reason ole curmudgeons like me complain about todays abortions calling themselves gun shows. If you are defending them you probably came to the dance late and had no idea what took place to create the current conditions so you think it is the norm and is just a market place engaging in supply and demand. You are right, that is what todays "gun show" is, but it is not really a gun show anymore, it is a flea market.
Guns shows started when hobbyist got together to swap or sell guns, parts, dies, or any items they no longer used. It was an opportunity to sell the gun you were no longer into and use the money to help buy the one you wish you had bought before they quit making. Usually participants initial meeting took place at a gun club where they hatched out the idea of holding such an event. Table fees were a way to pay the rent on a facility and there was not an entry or parking fee. There were no "circuit" traders. You know the ones that make the "circuit". Occasionally a person would make friends at an event and his friend would invite him to come to their show and put him up for the weekend in his home. The practice caught on and spread. In order to qualify, a table had to have a high percentage of it's wares be guns or gun related items. You could sell a lantern or fishing reel, but the bulk of the items for sell had to be gun related.
When the '68 gun control act came into being, gun shops were licensed and could only sell from the address on their license. They lobbied hard to be able to set up at gun shows and after donating to enough campaign funds of the right people were able to accomplish their goal. That is when gun shows started to go downhill.
Next promoters got into gun shows as a way to make money and the guys that bought up a bunch of tables had more influence with promoters. The gun shop crowd tried their best to push the individual table holders out of the shows and complained they had an unfair advantage and were undercutting the gun shops on pricing. After that phase passed, a lot of the individuals had quit going to "PROMOTED" show so the promoters started selling tables to people who sold totally unrelated items like sunglasses and jewelry. Soon the only table holders were gun shops, people who were retired and used it for an excuse to get away from home, and flea market types who knew little and cared little about the guns they were dealing in. It was just merchandise to them. That is why today, you are lucky to see a table with gun parts or junk boxes of gun related items such as small bore gages, parts, sights etc. You may still see a hobbyist once in a while, but he is paying a high table fee and is from the area. The worst part of the whole scene is it got to be totally focused on money. At the start, it was about recovering as much of your investment as you could to invest toward the next gun you wanted. Most people lost money because of the depreciation on their used gun. They were happy to get fair value to reinvest in the next gun they could find for a collection or for that gun they wanted, but was not made anymore. They could not go to the local gun shop and have as good a chance to buy it as at a gathering of so many gun people in one place. If they made money on one, it was offset by the one they lost on, but the focus was on gun trading and not on money. Today the number one topic I hear discussed at gun shows is money. I can't tell you how many conversations I heard around the concession stand before a show opened from some table holder bragging about the sucker he low balled a gun off of and sold for a big profit. Or some widow he got to first after her husband died and left all his guns. Or the practice of selling to wetbacks who pooled their dollars to buy one of their guns. The day came when that type outnumbered the hobbyist by a wide margin.
Legally a person without a license cannot buy a gun for resell without a license. To buy a gun at a show, clean it up, put a price tag on it, and lay it on your table will get you arrested by the ATF if they see you do it. I see it happening a lot, nowdays. That is because most are not buying a gun they wanted to take home and shoot, it is to try to make money on. They stab every honest gun trader in the back when they engage in this illegal activity and are the reason the Feds are trying to shut gun shows down altogether.
Before the '68 gun control act you could do that, but few did it because that was not why they were there. Today, it is against the law to engage in and it gives the antis fuel for their collective fire. Ask a table holder how a gun on his table shoots and most often he can not tell you, because he has not shot it and only bought it to resell. It is not his gun he is selling, it's his merchandise. Sure he is trying to make a profit and he wants it to come out of your pocket. That isn't even realistic in the climate that has been created by gun show promoters and dealers. Small town USA still holds a few and they are more like the original gun shows, but still have the "circuit" table holders trying to make their profit off you. Most fall into the "retired, using it to get out of the house" category. But, you are still more likely to find locals who are there to sell one they have grown tired of so they can buy one they want to try next.
There you have it. The reason ole curmudgeons like me complain about todays abortions calling themselves gun shows. If you are defending them you probably came to the dance late and had no idea what took place to create the current conditions so you think it is the norm and is just a market place engaging in supply and demand. You are right, that is what todays "gun show" is, but it is not really a gun show anymore, it is a flea market.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
Hi,
"Profit" is not a dirty word.
In fact, it's the only thing that keeps the distribution chain going, from the company that made the gun all the way down to the guy who wants to end up with it in his safe. It's also what supplied that money in his pocket, whether he recognizes the fact or not. Whether the seller has a brick and mortar store, a table at a gun show, or even sells online thru an auction site, he's got expenses, and must cover them to stay in business at all, then make a little more to even WANT to stay in business, and a little more after that to make it worthwhile to do so. Simply trading dollars isn't productive.
So it's a bit aggravating to see the same guy who doesn't think his boss pays him enough complain about the guy who does exactly what his boss would have to do to satisfy him: raising the prices of his products. People go into business to make money first. If they can cater to the customers' philosophical ideas as well, all the better, but if they can't, they still have to make a buck. Or go out of business. Then that customer will REALLY scream!
Personal observation from years of being a shooter, running a range, working for a gunsmith, and just plain hanging out around gun people: there are two types of shooters/gun owners. The first can afford to own their guns, shoot 'em, have 'em serviced by skilled smiths, etc. The second is "gun poor" trying to feed their addiction: they buy more guns than they can afford, or shoot, or sometimes even store. They've got little or no money left to shoot them, and try to do all their own gunsmithing to save a buck toward their next "fix." That second group's the problem in my opinion...
Case in point was an exchange in our shop one day. A fellow came in and needed "a screw turned" on something. My ol' gunsmith boss looked at it, turned the screw, which took about a minute, and told the guy it would be $7.50. Customer got highly indignant: "You only did about fifty cents worth of work! I could have done that."
Boss was never upset by such comments--he'd probably heard 'em all--and always had his "way" of settling the matter. "You're right. I did 50 cents worth of work, and charged you 50 cents for it. The other seven dollars was for knowing which screw to turn and how far to turn it. Next time, you do it yourself, and it'll cost you $50 to un-(screw) up what I guarantee you're gonna (screw) up." Guy never came back, and nobody missed him.
So, if you're one of the guys who can afford your hobby/addiction/whatever, more power to you. If you're one of the guys just hanging on, maybe a good look at what you're doing and how you're spending your money, with some attendant "behavior modification", will bring you a happier future?
Just one guy's opinion, worth not a penny more than you paid for it...
Rick C
"Profit" is not a dirty word.
In fact, it's the only thing that keeps the distribution chain going, from the company that made the gun all the way down to the guy who wants to end up with it in his safe. It's also what supplied that money in his pocket, whether he recognizes the fact or not. Whether the seller has a brick and mortar store, a table at a gun show, or even sells online thru an auction site, he's got expenses, and must cover them to stay in business at all, then make a little more to even WANT to stay in business, and a little more after that to make it worthwhile to do so. Simply trading dollars isn't productive.
So it's a bit aggravating to see the same guy who doesn't think his boss pays him enough complain about the guy who does exactly what his boss would have to do to satisfy him: raising the prices of his products. People go into business to make money first. If they can cater to the customers' philosophical ideas as well, all the better, but if they can't, they still have to make a buck. Or go out of business. Then that customer will REALLY scream!
Personal observation from years of being a shooter, running a range, working for a gunsmith, and just plain hanging out around gun people: there are two types of shooters/gun owners. The first can afford to own their guns, shoot 'em, have 'em serviced by skilled smiths, etc. The second is "gun poor" trying to feed their addiction: they buy more guns than they can afford, or shoot, or sometimes even store. They've got little or no money left to shoot them, and try to do all their own gunsmithing to save a buck toward their next "fix." That second group's the problem in my opinion...
Case in point was an exchange in our shop one day. A fellow came in and needed "a screw turned" on something. My ol' gunsmith boss looked at it, turned the screw, which took about a minute, and told the guy it would be $7.50. Customer got highly indignant: "You only did about fifty cents worth of work! I could have done that."
Boss was never upset by such comments--he'd probably heard 'em all--and always had his "way" of settling the matter. "You're right. I did 50 cents worth of work, and charged you 50 cents for it. The other seven dollars was for knowing which screw to turn and how far to turn it. Next time, you do it yourself, and it'll cost you $50 to un-(screw) up what I guarantee you're gonna (screw) up." Guy never came back, and nobody missed him.
So, if you're one of the guys who can afford your hobby/addiction/whatever, more power to you. If you're one of the guys just hanging on, maybe a good look at what you're doing and how you're spending your money, with some attendant "behavior modification", will bring you a happier future?
Just one guy's opinion, worth not a penny more than you paid for it...
Rick C
Paul B
Hunter
cas said:
Yeah, bit hit all right. :x My guns get mauled by dumb yahoos and I didn't sell spit during two different shows. Oh, and my prices were more than reasonable. Only three rifle had somewhat high prices; a mint Winchester M64 30-30, a first generation Colt .45 and very minty M1 Garand. Everybody wanted that Garand but they all wanted me to pay them to take it, or so it seemed. After losing my butt two show in a row I said to hell with it. Probably just sell the guns to a dealer or put them on consignment and take the dumping. Besides, tables took a jump from $50 each to $80 and the promoter is thinking of going to $100 a table. Some venders when you try to dicker prices act like you just made his mother an indecent proposal. I haven't gone to a gun show in almost three years now and just may not ever go to one ever again.
Paul B.
Tweety Bird
Single-Sixer
An FFL won't help much for a small-time dealer. My wife and I just let ours go because our wholesale prices couldn't compete with the likes of Bud's Gun Shop and their retail prices. They are a high-volume dealer and get much better prices from the distributors than we could even dream about as a small FFL, so their online retail price was often at or lower than our wholesale price. There were a few times when we could make $100 on a gun but that was a rare occurrence; generally, we were lucky to make $30 on a sale. You won't get rich that way and if all you want is a few guns at wholesale prices, the savings aren't worth the work.volshooter said:
My position on this whole thread is simple. "If you think it's priced too high, don't buy it."
There. See? Problem solved. Don't let it get your blood pressure up.
Tweety Bird
Single-Sixer
^^^^ THIS ^^^^cas said:
Contender, Rick C = great spot on posts
As others have said and I say on the matter
I don't care what anyone sells anything for
I decide if I buy it at the price I am willing to pay
If we can not agree - NO BIG deal - I walk away
Very simple this way - no bitching & no hard feelings
My .02 cents which may only be worth .01 cents
As others have said and I say on the matter
I don't care what anyone sells anything for
I decide if I buy it at the price I am willing to pay
If we can not agree - NO BIG deal - I walk away
Very simple this way - no bitching & no hard feelings
My .02 cents which may only be worth .01 cents
volshooter
Buckeye
I get emails from sites like "cheaper than dirt" that have great deals on old surplus stuff. Yet to get one you have a FFL to order. I am willing to make it worth a dealers time to order things for me, but cannot find one. I reckon they make better straight out selling as I know the prices.
I have been looking for a smith for two years to work on my Para 12/45. It only needs simple work that I could do myself, if I only knew where to get parts and a manual.
I have been looking for a smith for two years to work on my Para 12/45. It only needs simple work that I could do myself, if I only knew where to get parts and a manual.
