Super Redhawk - cylinder gap too tight? causing binding...

[drfarth]

I have a Super Redhawk in .454 Casull, and last time I took it shooting, I found that the cylinder would bind up when shooting. Meaning: when I tried to cock the hammer, I encountered resistance. I found that the hammer wouldn't cock unless I manually turned the cylinder with my other hand at the same time. This has never happened before, and even after this happened, I set the gun down, let it cool down, and then shot some more, but at a slower rate, and it didn't happen again after it had cooled a bit, so I think it has to do with the gun getting hot from shooting at a relatively fast rate, and likely the accumulation of carbon and lead on the surfaces abutting each other there binding up.

I've taken this gun shooting several times before, but I was always shooting .454 Casull, and you necessarily can't shoot that stuff very fast. This time, I was shooting .45 Colt, which I can shoot a little faster, and that's what the gun was choking on - not that I'm some sort of speed-shooter or anything, just that without the wrist wringing in between shots of .454, it was more like a normal shooting rate.

I cleaned the front of the cylinder and the breech end of the barrel thoroughly tonight with a 3M pad and Hoppes, and later polished them with Flitz, but honestly they weren't very dirty. Maybe enough to matter for the extremely tight tolerances this gun is made to, but just not a whole lot of carbon. Even though I've got these surfaces clean now, and can see metal on both surfaces, when I hold the gun up to a bright light and cock the hammer 6 times, there is still a spot in rotating between two of the chambers where there is only a partial gap, so I think no matter how clean I get these surfaces, the gun will be really tight, and prone to binding up in the future after shooting dirty enough ammo (not that the ammo I was shooting was that dirty - it was Herter's brand .45LC - but I'm guessing that I hadn't cleaned the gun adequately before taking it to the range that day).

My question is, has anybody encountered this problem with their SRH, and what did you do to fix it?

To me, it seems like a very careful application of fine grit sandpaper to the breech end of the barrel to widen the cylinder gap by half a hair would solve the problem, but it seems that I may be crossing into the realm of at-home gunsmithery that may be better left to a professional. Thoughts?

 

[powder smoke]

If I were to attempt such a project I believe I would use a fine stone
work slowly and carefully. I'm sure other with more experience than
I will offer up some suggestions. ps

 

[dbarale]

Did you measure the gap?

 

[contender]

If I felt there was a gap problem, I'd work on the cylinder vs. the barrel.
I'd check ammo, primer height, endshake, etc before I'd go to filing on anything.

 

[David Bradshaw]

drfarth.... exceedingly unlikely you fired, or can fire, your SRH fast enough to hot enough to expand the cylinder or other parts enough to bind rotation.

A revolver generally binds from powder or bullet material fouling the cylinder axle (cylinder pin on a single action; crane or yoke on a double action).

* Swing out cylinder. Cylinder should spin freely on crane. If not, fouling or foreign material is present. Lube cylinder "axle" automatic transmission fluid, powder solvent, Mercury Quicksilver carbon solvent, or light motor oil. Spin cylinder beaucoup.

* Press ejector rod and check under extractor star for debris. Powder granules between star and cylinder may keep ratchet/extractor from seating, and bind cylinder. Among DA revolvers, the Redhawk/SRH is far from the worst offender.

* Train self to raise muzzle to vertical before ejecting fired shells. This helps to keep powder granules from collecting under extractor.

* Measure cylinder/barrel gap with feeler gauge. A standard test at the factory is to double-action dry-fire revolver with feeler gauge between cylinder and barrel. A revolver may be fit tight with minimal gap, to where you need, for instance, a .0015" feeler, or a feeler under .006", and still function perfectly. Unless the cylinder face is perfectly square to the barrel face during rotation, there will be a high spot. A high spot may or may not drag while shooting; depends on endshake and/or cylinder gap.

* Please do not engage in metal removal unless you know exactly what you're doing.

* ENDSHAKE is forward-aft movement of cylinder in cylinder frame. Cylinder gap----space between cylinder face and barrel face----is measured with cylinder held against standing breach ----a.k.a. recoil plate. As the pawl rotates cylinder, it pushes the cylinder forward.

* Dry fire, then look for drag marks on cylinder face.
David Bradshaw

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

Check as Brad and others recommended first. File as a last resort.

 

[DGW1949]

The first thing that I'd do is check the B/C gap.
That requires a good set of feeler gauges, and that that the gun be cleaned before hand.

DGW

 

[drfarth]

I don't have the kind of tools I'd need to measure the gap. Before thoroughly cleaning it, there was no gap for some of the chambers, and only a partial gap for other chambers. Yes, there were drag marks on the cylinder face. Now that I've cleaned it, I can get a single piece of cheap copy paper into the gap, with some resistance, but I cannot get cardstock (3"x5" notecard) to fit into the gap.

David, if it were the axle, then why would the gun bind up at one point during the shooting session, and then be fine later, after having been set down for a few minutes? When I dry fired it, even before the most recent cleaning, it did not bind. It has to do with the gun heating up enough for the metal to expand. As for what parts of the gun are rubbing against each other, that may be a question better left to someone who knows more than me, and I'm only guessing it's the cylinder gap because prior to cleaning, there was no gap at many places on the cylinder and I couldn't figure out where else it would be dragging. As for endshake, there is none. The gun is made to tighter tolerances than any revolver I've ever held, and the cylinder and frame might as well be a single piece of metal.

 

[DGW1949]

You can get a decent set of feeler gauges at most-any auto parts store.....and they don't cost much money.

DGW

 

[rugerguy]

stainless steel alloys used in firearms expand and contract at a much different rate than say 4140 chrome moly, Smith and Wesson found this out many years ago with some police departments and the stainless model K frame guns, some were recalled and different gas seals were used...if your tolerances are that close, with heat they can and will "bind" and yes you can shoot fast enough and get them hot enough to "act up"........you see rubbing on the face of the cylinder, , that's is telling you something is amiss, and you can use a "reverse" cutter or even hand files ( use a "safe file") to adjust the clearance of the barrel breach and cylinder face....keep this "closest" gap to a minimum, of say .002-.004" max,other wise the opposite side will be getting too large a gap...keep things "square", AND make sure you leave NO burring on the inside of the forcing cone, , this we recut(touch up) afterwards...................and yes, as 'DGW' notes . get yourself a set of feeler gages , they are cheap enough and handy to have around. :wink:

 

[LaneP]

I wouldn't touch a thing. As you mention, the pistol shoots fine in slow and deliberate mode.

If anything, it will tend to loosen as it wears over time. A nice tight b/c gap will give you the highest potential velocities.

If it's a straight shooter and you can get through six shots without issue, I wouldn't do anything and enjoy.

 

[rugerguy]

it will tighten up and "close" ( get worse) with wear and as for "velocities" unless you have 16-18 inch barrel, with a "closed" breach, don't worry about that....just MY .02 cents :roll: 8) :wink:

 

[David Bradshaw]

drfarth.... it is difficulty, often impossible, to trouble shoot a gun by verbal description, especially on scant information. It remains conjecture to assert heat expansion causes the binding. Sounds like a call to Ruger Custom Service in Newport NH is in order. Intermittent binding can also be caused by----for instance---- a burr or tool mark where shells drag on the standing breech or between pawl and ratchet.

If indeed one side of the cylinder face contacts barrel face, while the other side shows a gap, the face of the cylinder is not square to its axis. Decent automotive feelers go down to .0015", and enable you to measure what you can't see. Providing a discrepancy, measurement is information useful to Custom Service at Ruger.

I, for one, am curious and would appreciate hearing how this pans out.
David Bradshaw

 

[drfarth]

drfarth.... it is difficulty, often impossible, to trouble shoot a gun by verbal description, especially on scant information. It remains conjecture to assert heat expansion causes the binding. Sounds like a call to Ruger Custom Service in Newport NH is in order. Intermittent binding can also be caused by----for instance---- a burr or tool mark where shells drag on the standing breech or between pawl and ratchet.

If indeed one side of the cylinder face contacts barrel face, while the other side shows a gap, the face of the cylinder is not square to its axis. Decent automotive feelers go down to .0015", and enable you to measure what you can't see. Providing a discrepancy, measurement is information useful to Custom Service at Ruger.

I, for one, am curious and would appreciate hearing how this pans out.
David Bradshaw

I appreciate your input. I am definitely rethinking my initial plan of at-home gunsmithing, and I am going to instead have it looked at by a professional. I'll update the thread when I know more, but it may be a month or more until that happens just because this is a pretty low priority for me "in life," as it were. I still want a chance to run some dirty ammo through it and try my hand at "speed shooting" once more now that I've polished the front of the cylinder and breech of the barrel really well.

As to the people saying I should just leave it as it is, I'd really rather not. My main philosophy of owning this gun is for bear protection, and I do typically spend about 2 weeks in the summer in grizzly country, so binding is not a good thing.

 

[rugerguy]

absolutely, and bottom line is in the time it took to type up the responses, the gun could have been 'fixed",
and by either of the methods I said could be used ...I know, we used to do this 8)