standards

[targetshootr]

I recently learned the hard way that the trade of gunsmithing has no standards to speak of. That is to say, there's no degree of expertise you have to reach to hang out a shingle. I wish I was wrong but I came across this tonight: "... there is no federal certifying or licensing requirement concerning the skill level of someone purporting to be a gunsmith."

This came up when an actual gunsmith turned a gun of mine into a hand grenade. I won't go into any details but trust me when I say he's a danger to the public and there's no way I know of that he can be held to account. This is incredible to me and I wonder how it ever came to be like that.

 

[contender]

I have known that for years. I have refused to call myself a gunsmith for that very reason as I ONLY tinker. I do NOT do major work on anybody's gun. I will install a scope, replace a stock, etc all in the "easy" jobs where NO serious work is to be done on the action or chambers.
I too have seen a few butcher jobs and knew someone got burned.

 

[Enigma]

Let's not be too quick to call for outside regulation! The last thing we need is some form of government getting involved in yet another aspect of our hobby!

Just think of some of the restrictions they could arbitrarily apply to anyone who wanted or already had a 'gunsmith license.' 'Oh, you're not zoned properly.' 'You're not authorized to perform that type of repair.' Or, how about 'You can change barrels, but you'll have to test-fire the gun and enroll the recovered bullets/cartridge casings in our ballistic fingerprinting database.'

 

[targetshootr]

Let's not be too quick to call for outside regulation! The last thing we need is some form of government getting involved in yet another aspect of our hobby!

Just think of some of the restrictions they could arbitrarily apply to anyone who wanted or already had a 'gunsmith license.' 'Oh, you're not zoned properly.' 'You're not authorized to perform that type of repair.' Or, how about 'You can change barrels, but you'll have to test-fire the gun and enroll the recovered bullets/cartridge casings in our ballistic fingerprinting database.'

This guy is going to get someone hurt or killed and the reason he can't be stopped is because there are no regulations. I have to deal with them in my trade as does most every other trade, and not all of those trades are nearly as dangerous as gunsmithing.

 

[rugerguy]

You are right, ,sad to say , that is about the thing with ANY form or service or repair...thats why there is the BBB and the 'AG' of every state in the Union......liability insurance costs a "bundle", and if they don''t have it, all the better to "stay away from that kind of person..."lots of gun plumbers out , tinkerers, hobbyists and the like but I know only a FEW "true" gunsmiths......I have owned 3 gun shops ,trained to work on and service firearms at a number of gun makers over the years, but would NOT consider myself a "gunsmith", thats a tall order....have worked with a couple of them over the years, but they are dead and gone now, only one remains and Walt is 'retired' himself, by and large,still hangs on a few days a week.....oh, I can buff and polish, and prep them with the "best", and do much of it by hand, and by eye, but that does NOT make one a "gunsmith" .............
closest we have seen any organizing of "custom " gunsmiths, was years ago, when they formed the 'American Pistolsmiths Guild', we knew many of them "Old timers" ?? (ha ha) when they did that, but that still does NOT cover any and all the "bubbas" ( backyard gun plumbers..) or members of "Schwak Industires" and their renowned "schwak jobs" those are the ones you can spot as being "reblued" from across the room, and usually "FUBAR"...........you gotta check around, get references, and all of that.

Good luck.....................

 

[targetshootr]

Yep. The scary thing is that this guy is apparently an honest-to-god gunsmith with a nice website and everything. And his state AG wasn't interested in doing anything about it. I wonder if the NRA is the reason there's no oversight.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I would love to hear the story. :mrgreen:

...Jimbo

 

[Boxhead]

There are the American Pistolsmiths Guild and the American Custom Gunmakers Guild that try and do to ensure competency.

 

[JWhitmore44]

The only thing certification does is prove some one knows how to take a test. Most people study to pass the certification, afterwords they may never apply what they learned.

By the way, auto mechanics do not have to be certified. And if you believe it is not as dangerous as a gunsmith, keep in mind of all the things you rely on your vehicle to do at 80 mph, or in a panic stop, maybe even coming down that mountain pass.

 

[Cholo]

Is this the gun that was converted to 44mag instead of 44 Special?

 

[targetshootr]

I don't want to go into details, I'm just wondering how such a potentially dangerous trade can be so wide open. I'm going to guess the main reason is that the NRA is probably opposed to it.

 

[targetshootr]

What would you guys do if you were in my shoes and someone made a mess of your gun and he won't refund your money or fix anything and then you found out there's nothing you can do about it because he's in another state? Would you post his name everywhere? He's going to get someone hurt eventually but there's also a good chance you'll get flamed for doing it. You know how forums are.

 

[rugerguy]

well a couple of things, first , I sincerely doubt the NRA has ANYTHING to do with this situation, you cited this twice now and the answer is as said before, they are out there, good and bad, pros and bums.....you got took, you feel, and your bottom line is to seek a remedy, (sue) that's what you are supposed to do....but be careful of slamming the guy , slander and such is a criminal act and if he has a BETTER lawyer than YOU< the tables can be turned, so please be careful on just "how" you want to vent, be selective. There are two sides to every story and as Paul Harvey said, we will wait to hear the "rest of the story....." me, I'd call a lawyer, just to find out what your options REALLY are, no just guessing or making opinions.......

 

[Yosemite Sam]

well a couple of things, first , I sincerely doubt the NRA has ANYTHING to do with this situation, you cited this twice now and the answer is as said before, they are out there, good and bad, pros and bums.....you got took, you feel, and your bottom line is to seek a remedy, (sue) that's what you are supposed to do....but be careful of slamming the guy , slander and such is a criminal act and if he has a BETTER lawyer than YOU< the tables can be turned, so please be careful on just "how" you want to vent, be selective. There are two sides to every story and as Paul Harvey said, we will wait to hear the "rest of the story....." me, I'd call a lawyer, just to find out what your options REALLY are, no just guessing or making opinions.......

Excellent advice. And don't potentially compromise any case you have by talking about the facts before they're set out in a legal manner. As much as I'd like to hear the details, if you go "airing your dirty laundry" and the other side in a litigation finds out about it, it doesn't leave you in a good position.

IMO, of course, and I'm not a lawyer.

-- Sam

 

[I_Like_Pie]

On the other end of the spectrum...the prettiest guns I have ever seen were built by people that were not gunsmiths.

 

[targetshootr]

It won't go to court because of the expense so I'm obviously out a bunch of money. That's not the issue. The question is, would you feel obliged to warn others.

Regardless if the NRA is opposed to it, the gunsmith community has fallen down on the job bigtime by not policing itself like every other trade does.

 

[rugerguy]

absolutely you can tell others that you are not satisfied with ANY work (job) thats why in this business, word of mouth is so important....and no, most trades are NOT policing themsleves, just lookl around, see all the bad jobs in about ANYTHING, sadly anyomne with a tool box and or a pick up truck, calls himself a "tradesman", and YES< there are mnay GOOD , skilled workers, proud of the job they do, but you only hear of the "con men" and the "gypsies" ( hey nothing against any of my Romanian ancestors out there....) yes, the 'trade unions' have "standards" to be able to possibly become a "apprenticeship" program and go through all the training, and then get "licensed" but much like being a Doctor and what they do is called a "practice" and for the most part, that is just what they do...they learn the basics, go to school, intern, they get tested, they "practice medicine" and at times, still 'kill folks'........and this is why we have lawyers.......now "Practice" dentistry....get a bad job and NO -ONE wants to touch it ...I know , had a bad root canal, the dentist' broke off,not one but two , root canal "tools" ( files) and there is NOTHING anyone will do, but go to another dentist, a "specialist" who "Practices" redoing the bad work of other dentists...and all he can say is "oh my, too bad, oh well...." lawyers??? Ha, won;t go near it.................
Oh ? the "bad" dentist??The Healthy Smile, Dr Jeffrey Gross, in fact he teaches "dentistry" at the local college........ OH well...........won't go there anymore, nor tell any-one else either........

 

[targetshootr]

In most trades there are state boards who oversee everyone in the trade and they can make life very difficult for people who do work like this guy. They'll haul you down there and make you answer for what you do and they'll revoke your license if they want. They do it every day. And if you get caught working without a license, they'll put you in jail. I'm talking plumbers, electricians, etc. And I'm sure doctors have boards too.

 

[Carry_Up]

Name one thing that the government has made better by sticking its fingers into it. Just one...

Let's hear some of these details that you've been complaining about and let us judge for ourselves what we think of the situation. I've been to plenty of doctors and dentists who don't meet my expectations and they are all licensed. Licensing didn't prevent them from doing sloppy work and neither will licensing magically guarantee excellent gunsmiths. And to think that this suggestion comes from a gun owner, of all people!

Type of firearm, original problem, work requested, work done, amount paid; these would all be important to know, before I would listen to an anonymous rant. Did the smith just hand you your firearm and say, "Sorry, I broke it."? Or did he offer to correct his mistakes, or have them corrected by another smith? Did you perhaps deliver an irreplaceable heirloom to someone who was not a specialist in the work to be done? What's the other side of the story?

Carry_Up

 

[targetshootr]

Name one thing that the government has made better by sticking its fingers into it. Just one...

Let's hear some of these details that you've been complaining about and let us judge for ourselves what we think of the situation. I've been to plenty of doctors and dentists who don't meet my expectations and they are all licensed. Licensing didn't prevent them from doing sloppy work and neither will licensing magically guarantee excellent gunsmiths. And to think that this suggestion comes from a gun owner, of all people!

Type of firearm, original problem, work requested, work done, amount paid; these would all be important to know, before I would listen to an anonymous rant. Did the smith just hand you your firearm and say, "Sorry, I broke it."? Or did he offer to correct his mistakes, or have them corrected by another smith? Did you perhaps deliver an irreplaceable heirloom to someone who was not a specialist in the work to be done? What's the other side of the story?

Carry_Up

Thanks for helping out. I was going back and forth deciding if I should bother to warn others and the answer is clearly no. Before even getting into details it's turned hostile already. So I'll let everyone find out about him the hard way, just like I did.