SR9C keyhole bullet strikes

[FergusonTO35]

I bought my SR9C in 2011 and have put around 1500 rounds through. The pistol has always been a great shooter. Reliable function and more accurate than I can hold. My pet 9mm load is 3.7 grains Bullseye under a 122 grain .357 lead truncated cone, put thousands of them through many differet guns. Unfortunately the last few times I have fired it I have been getting keyholes and huge groups at 20 feet. Switch to the Glock 19 and get small groups with neat round holes. Switching the ammo to FMJ helps but still there is no reason for the pistol to suddenly reject ammo that gave no problems previously and all my others still eat up no problem.

I think it needs to go back to Ruger for a new barrel. Maybe the bore was marginal to begin with in some way. What say you?

 

[Cheesewhiz]

The first thing to look at is heavy fouling. Sometimes it isn't all that apparent, I would go with a good copper remover followed by a lead soak and a heavy brush. You said you use .357' bullets in your reloads. That's a bit over the standard, I reload a ton of 9mm for many guns and never found any reason to go oversize on the bullets I use. The other thing I would ask is if this gun ever could have had a squib in it, a fouled or bulged barrel are the most likely mechanical causes for keyholes.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Thanks, I will check that out. Respectfully, I use .357 in 9mm because I've had too much leading and inaccuracy with the nominal .355-.356 that most lead 9mm bullets are, in a variety of different guns. Over on the Cast Boolits forum the consensus is that .357 is best for this cartridge in nearly every gun. My molds drop right at .357. I pan lube them and load up, no sizing needed.

 

[Clovishound]

I have given up on home rolled bullets for my SR9c. Just too much leading no matter what I did. I can get by with commercial hard cast in either .356 or .357 using the right powder. I still get some leading with the commercial bullets, but it is manageable. Had problems with keyholing and very severe leading with the first home caste I tried. I slugged my barrel and came up with .3555. That would put .357 in the running for a good fit for my barrel. I tried both .356 and .357 with similar results for both. I settled on .356.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

At risk of turning this into a reloading thread....

9mm is a high pressure round and because of this, things that may apply to .38's or .45 Colt or even .45 ACP may not apply fully to the 9mm. The biggest mechanical issue with hardcast lead in a 9mm is leading but the question is what is the main cause.
Well, gas skipping is most often brought up as the reason for leading in a barrel. Gas skipping is the action of gas from a fired load that skips past the bullet as it goes down the barrel. The gas is traveling faster than the bullet is and this is what pushes the bullet down the barrel (I know, Duh!) but if the gas can find a point to get past the bullet, it of course will and with hardcast bullets it will strip lead from the sides of the bullet and deposit this stripped lead onto the barrel surface.
Anyone that has cleaned an extremely lead fouled barrel will tell you it is a giant task and may just say screw it; no more cast lead bullets in this gun.

Now what caused all this? Good question Cheesewhiz, you are a fine student and damn good looking too.

The most likely cause is the bullet isn't obturating well and filling the grooves in the rifling, allowing this gas skipping. Ferguson pointed at this as reason to go to .357" diameter bullets for his 9mm loads, this larger diameter should fill the rifling and let the bullet to obturate and keep the gas from skipping past it as it travels down the barrel.
The problem is that this doesn't work so well with 9mm, remember it is a high pressure round, that extra pressure will find a way past the bullet.
...and most reloading manuals warn against using larger than .356 bullets as this could cause pressure issues in the chamber besides possible fit and feeding issues in a tight chamber like CZ's or Sig's.
I believe the best thing to do is to look at everything in your loads that have caused this issue.

I think the biggest "pointed at" reason is the cast lead bullet's hardness, a harder lead will not obturate as well as a soft lead and with the higher pressure of the 9mm the gas finds a way. I also don't ever think you can stop the gas skipping 100% even with a softer lead but it will help. Using a slower powder will also help, Bullseye is a fast powder. It burns hotter than a slower powder and will produce more initial gas pressure when it ignites. Look at your load length, setting the bullet deep into the case will not only cause higher pressures, it will also leave the bullet shorter from the rifling and allowing gas to slip past before the bullet has even engaged the rifling. This may be the biggest issue here but I'm no expert, I just know that 9mm has to be looked at a little differently than some other rounds.

So let me go through my points:

1. Try to use a softer lead.
2. A slower powder will help.
3. Check your overall length, adjust them out so they are just short of engaging the rifling.

....Point 3. will take some playing around as you will need to find a length that will feed, not exceed 1.169" and the bullet does not contact the rifling when chambered. It needs to be off the transition by about .010" to be on the safe side.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Good write up Cheese!

My favorite 9mm bullet is the Lee 356-120-TC. I make 'em out of range lead ingots that I get from a few places. They drop out of my mold at slightly more than .357. I pan lube them with 50/50 beeswax and alox. They seem to work best at an OAL of 1.055 in all my pistols. The rounds always chamber easily in my guns, including the Glock with Storm Lake barrel.

Bullseye is my favorite powder for this bullet because it meters perfectly and produces very consistent velocity. Today's Bullseye doesn't produce as much fouling and is actually slower burning than it used to be. From what I can tell it is more akin to the medium fast powders such as W-W 231 than the truly fast ones like Red Dot. Bullseye is my favorite powder in this cartridge, sadly it has been extinct here for quite awhile.

When loaded with jacketed bullets at more than 1,000 fps the 9mm is certainly a high pressure round. When loaded with cast bullets under 1,000 fps I think it is sort of a medium pressure round in most loadings. Cast bullets are softer than jacketed and thereby require less pressure to reach the same velocity. A friend of mine with Quickload says that my usual 3.5 grains Bullseye is about a 25k load. Given the unavailability of Bullseye I have been working on other powders with good results, particularly Accurate #5. Faster powders like IMR 700X, Titegroup, and Accurate #2 seem to produce more heat and recoil at the same velocity level of my Bullseye loads, even though Bullseye isn't much different in burn rate.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

This subject brought back some memories to me.
Stephen A. Camp was a technical gun writer and a prolific poster on many gun forums. He wasn't all that much of a fan reloading lead bullets in 9mm, although he admittedly was mostly shooting them in Browning Hi-Powers and felt their 1:10 twist hampered his accuracy quest with lead bullets.
Ruger's 9mm twist is also 1:10 so that may have some bearing on possible issues. What was funny was he really did make it a quest and went to all kinds of lengths to make 9mm lead bullets work for him.
I didn't always agree with some of his findings and still don't but I will give him a ton of credit in that he did a lot of leg work and was a good writer and a great gun guy.
Steve died about three years back at the age of 59, he would probably have looked at this short thread and it would have put a smile on his face.
You can still buy his books and a lot of his postings are archived in many forums.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Cool, I'll have to check it out. I agree that the 1:9,1:10 twist of most 9's is not ideal for cast bullet use. The Storm Lake barrel on my Glock is 1:16 and super accurate with cast, more so than any of my other 9's. If somebody would create a 1:16 barrel for the SR9C I would happily buy it.

 

[FergusonTO35]

I was checking over the pistol last night and it looks like I have some foulage lurking inside. When looking at the rifling with an indirect light source I can see some gray streaks hiding in the grooves that are not ordinarily there when I shoot my own bullets. It makes sense though. Awhile back I decided to shoot up some old Speer .356 cast bullets that I had. These had some sort of a dry coating lube on them and were not accurate. I shot a box of them and was not impressed so I threw the rest into the lead pot. The keyholing started within 100 rounds after those crappy things.

I bet they plugged up the grooves enough to cause this problem, which temporarily subsides when you shoot FMJ. I'm soaking the bore in solvent right now and will scrub it with steel wool when I get home tonight. Hopefully that will solve the problem 'cause I really like this pistol!

 

[modrifle3]

My xd9 was terrible and I water captured some of the lead 9mm bullets. They were not even staying in the rifling, just blowing past. After 15 rounds the rifling isnt even visible. I run the same load in my range officer and super accurate.

 

[modrifle3]

I was checking over the pistol last night and it looks like I have some foulage lurking inside. When looking at the rifling with an indirect light source I can see some gray streaks hiding in the grooves that are not ordinarily there when I shoot my own bullets. It makes sense though. Awhile back I decided to shoot up some old Speer .356 cast bullets that I had. These had some sort of a dry coating lube on them and were not accurate. I shot a box of them and was not impressed so I threw the rest into the lead pot. The keyholing started within 100 rounds after those crappy things.

I bet they plugged up the grooves enough to cause this problem, which temporarily subsides when you shoot FMJ. I'm soaking the bore in solvent right now and will scrub it with steel wool when I get home tonight. Hopefully that will solve the problem 'cause I really like this pistol!

I have a couple spiral brushes that work pretty good.

 

[WMB30]

Suggest a worn brush wrapped with some copper Chore Boy. A few strokes and that lead is outta there.

Bill

 

[FergusonTO35]

Didn't have any chore boy so I used steel wool, which has worked well in the past. The bore looks nice and clean now. Hopefully I can try it out soon.

 

[louchia]

I agree with Blackhawk. I use chore boy if I get heavy fouling. Hoppes bore cleaner followed by chore boy does a fast easy cleaning. Lead comes out in sheets.

 

[modrifle3]

What is chore boy?

 

[LaneP]

I was curious myself. Amazon shows it as a fleece scrubbing cloth:

http://www.amazon.com/Chore-Boy-Gol...UTF8&qid=1404270890&sr=8-1&keywords=chore+boy

 

[Pops 1]

You can buy it at Wal Mart, looks like course steel wool but made out of cooper. It is in the home cleaning supplys. If you can find a crack head he will have it stuffed in the end of his crack pipe, using it as a filter. It is made to scrub pots with, not the kind of pot you smoke.

 

[WMB30]

Those pads from Amazon are not what I mentioned. Most grocery stores will have the copper scrub pads. Some made by Scotch Brite.

Bill

 

[FergusonTO35]

Update: I put 25 rounds through the SR9C today, 3.4 grains IMR 700X under a 122 grain truncated cone with 1.055 OAL. The first few groups were awesome, nice little cloverleafs on point of aim. After that the groups opened up alot and I got some more keyholes, though not as many as last time.

While cleaning the pistol I noticed some streaks of lead in front of the chamber. That suggests to me the load has too much pressure for the bullet. I looked at Hodgdon's data and found that they list an OAL of 1.150. 700X is a fast powder and about the only one that can be found here. I've used 3.2/3.3 grains before no problem, maybe 3.4 with the shorter OAL is just too much for these slugs. I'll try my pet load of 3.5 grains Bullseye. If it won't shoot that one perfectly then the pistol is for sure going back to Ruger.

 

[DonD]

Didn't have any chore boy so I used steel wool, which has worked well in the past. The bore looks nice and clean now. Hopefully I can try it out soon.

Steel wool can cause corrosion initiation spots on passivated stainless steel which is probably what the barrel is made of. You may regret using it. Don

 

[DonD]

If it won't shoot that one perfectly then the pistol is for sure going back to Ruger.

Not meaning to be snippy here but if the gun shoots properly with commercial FMJ ball ammo which will be what Ruger test fires guns with, they may well not care at all about how your gun functions with lead handloads. Afterall, the owner’s manual has a specific disclaimer about the use of handloads. Good luck. Don

 

[Clovishound]

Update: I put 25 rounds through the SR9C today, 3.4 grains IMR 700X under a 122 grain truncated cone with 1.055 OAL. The first few groups were awesome, nice little cloverleafs on point of aim. After that the groups opened up alot and I got some more keyholes, though not as many as last time.

While cleaning the pistol I noticed some streaks of lead in front of the chamber. That suggests to me the load has too much pressure for the bullet. I looked at Hodgdon's data and found that they list an OAL of 1.150. 700X is a fast powder and about the only one that can be found here. I've used 3.2/3.3 grains before no problem, maybe 3.4 with the shorter OAL is just too much for these slugs. I'll try my pet load of 3.5 grains Bullseye. If it won't shoot that one perfectly then the pistol is for sure going back to Ruger.

I'm certainly no expert, but it sure sounds like the accuracy/keyholing is a result of leading. Shoots good with a fresh/clean barrel. After a number of rounds, the lead builds up and ruins accuracy. I had to go to commercial hard cast with a medium speed powder, Universal was what I used. Titegroup seemed to make things worse.

I still get some leading with current recipe. Nothing affecting accuracy in a single range session, and nothing a thorough, normal cleaning would not remove.

I'm thinking about switching to plated bullets to make life easier. With the availability of pistol powder these days, I have to use what I can find, and that may not be cast friendly.

.38 spcl seems to be far less problematical when it comes to leading.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I don't cast bullets and probably never will. I do load and shoot a fair amount of them but mostly use some form of FMJ or Plated round nose in my reloads.

I have been loading "coated" hardcast bullets for quite awhile in 9mm, the coating cuts down on the smoke from lubes used with standard cast bullets as there is no lube used with these coatings. They probably help cut down the leading somewhat but I believe using a mid range burn powder has more likely helped in that department. Both of the brands of coated bullets that I use are cast to a relatively soft 16-17 brinell hardness and this is also a factor. SNS Casting and Bayou bullets are excellent casters and SNS also makes a full range of uncoated, lubed bullets also.

Here are some links to particular coated bullets that I use for 9mm:

http://www.snscasting.com/new-9mm-125-grain-round-nose-coated-1000ct/

http://www.bayoubullets.net/9mm-147-gr-fp-1000-ct/

I buy 124gr FMJ's from Montana Gold bullets that I buy in large quantities, so the price per bullet is about $0.09, the 124gr Coated I get from SNS works out to $0.068 if I only buy 1000 but I get a break for a larger quantity and the 147gr Coated from Bayou comes in at $0.075 per bullet also with a break for a larger order.
I really have stopped using standard hardcast bullets that are lubed for 9mm and only load standard hardcast/lubed for .45ACP and several different revolver rounds.
My life is easier because of this, I do screw around with a lot of other 9mm bullets (jacketed, hardcast, extruded lead and plated) just to try to come up with good loads or interesting failures but it's nice to have a good stable of constants that I know work always.

Not to tell you what to do but you might just want to cast for a more friendly round than the 9mm, you'll have more hair on your head at the end of the day.

 

[modrifle3]

With the low cost of plates bullets I doubt I will ever shoot lead 9mm once this latest batch is done.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Tried it out again today. Same charge of 700X with 124 grain FMJ resulted in really good accuracy. Tried and true 3.5 grains Bullseye/122 grain lead truncated cone resulted in somewhat worse accuracy with no keyholes. To be fair I was shooting other guns and my hands were kind of shaky. I'll clean it really good again and try a few other loads.

I understand the 9mm is not the most lead bullet friendly round out there, but it ain't the worst either. It has never presented me with any more problems than other rounds I've tried including .38 Special, .357 magnum, .32 Auto, .30 WCF, and .45-70. As mentioned before this pistol never keyholed until recently. So far everything indicates the keyholes were caused by some substandard bullets and a powder charge that didn't get along with my bullets. I really enjoy making and shooting cast bullets. The only gun I don't shoot cast in is my .257 Roberts. If at some point down the road I decide that the SR9C is not going to give me the results I want with cast bullets it will get traded/sold and replaced with something else. Will keep you posted!!

 

[Jim Puke]

What is chore boy?

Kitchen scouring pad that is available at most grocers and discount stores.

Just make sure to get the copper Chore Boy and not just the copper plated.

It is the best lead remover that I have used, when wrapped around a bore brush of appropriate caliber.

 

[buckshotshorty]

What is chore boy?

Chore boy is a copper scrungy thing used to clean pots and pans. Supermarkets sell them where you find Brillo and stuff.

Don't get a knock-0ff brand because they are steel. Copper won't damage your rifling. Look for the 100% copper on the box. Cut off a piece and wind it around an old worn bore brush. You'll see the lead shedding out of the bore.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Update: it looks like the crappy bullets and too much 700X were the culprit here. Over the past week I've fired a bunch of my own lead bullets with 3.3 grains of 700X. No keyholing although accuracy is still better with jacketed bullets.

Overall I think that the SR9C would do way better with a 1:16 twist barrel. The 1:9, 1:10 or whatever it comes with does really well with jacketed bullets, which I understand most owners use. My Glock 19 has a Storm Lake 1:16 twist barrel and will shoot groups half the size with the same ammo at the same distance, all day long. Storm Lake told me they are considering making barrels for the SR series so if this is something you also would like to see, contact them and say so.

 

[FergusonTO35]

Well this story has a happy ending. Went to the range with my buddy and his girlfriend, who has her CCW license hot off the press. She tried the SR9c and loved it, she can shoot it better than I can. We struck a deal and now it's hers. She will never shoot anything but jacketed factory ammo so it will be a good pistol for her.

 

[dak109]

I realize I am late to this thread, but. Did the bullets you were using change? Were you using a Lee crimp die?
I had leading and key holing when I started loading cast 125 gr. RN 357 bullets for my SR9c. I found out, thanks to cast bool it's, the Lee factory crimp die was squeezing my bullets down in the case. I quit using the LFCD and accuracy is great. No leading. IIRC I am using 5.5gr of Power Pistol.