Since I have an "extra" 9mm Speed Six.......

[Timber Wolf]

I happen to be blessed in that I own two Ruger Speed Sixes in 9mm. I like them but do not shoot them much. I have been shooting my S&W Model 25, .45 ACP in moon clips, in USPSA Revolver division and like it for a change of pace from bottom feeder handguns. I also shoot a PPC modded S&W Model 10 in NRA Action pistol, and like it for the accuracy, light recoil, and ease of reloading .38 Special ammo. This got me to thinking about a 9mm moon clipped handgun for both sports. Yes, it would a slight disadvantage for USPSA due to minor power factor but the inexpensive and easily reloaded ammo would make up for that to me. With the right barrel, fitting, trigger and sights there is no reason it could not be as accurate as my .38 Special gun. And it would be way cool.

So, my idea is this; refit the lesser condition 9mm Speed Six with a 6" heavy PPC type barrel and sight rib and have the trigger worked over, maybe even to a slick DAO. Other than lamenting the “ruining” of a fine and “collectable” handgun, does anybody have any input? What about bore diameter? Go with 9mm (.356?) or .357 or even .358? If I went with one the larger bores, I could have the cylinder bored to fit the bullets/barrel bore and could use an appropriately fitting bullet. I am not worried about feeding since they are not going in an autoloader but I don’t want to fight them into the chambers either. Is there some advantage to bumping the chambers up to 9X23? I have a 9X23 Colt 1911 and lots of brass but don’t shoot it for fear of losing the dadgum brass, which is not much of an issue when using the moon clipped ammo (you either find it or lose six at a time!). The 9X23 brass would give a shorter jump to the barrel and could possibly be loaded to major power factor. Or, just leave it as a 9mm for ease of components and because the shorter brass stuffs six-at-a-time in the chamber easier? Anyway, I would like to investigate this further and would appreciate concrete input in the way of ideas, sources for parts, and recommendations of gunsmiths to tackle the project.

 

[JimMarch1]

Cool...but if you want to "make major" why not ream it deeper to 9x23Winchester? Ballistics are on par with all but the wildest 357Magnums. The cylinder can take it - no more stress than a 357Mag and the metallurgy is the same as the 357 cylinders. It would use the same moon clips and feed just as fast as a 9x19.

As to the barrel: first step is to find out what your throats are, then go a fraction smaller on the barrel. "Maurice" the FrankenRuger is a 9x19 with .3555" throats and a .355" barrel (Douglas Premium). With lead, my starting point is .356" hardcasts.

You could set everything up for .357" or .358" lead bullets but then, if your chambers are "standard" (a term that can only loosely be applied to the 9mmPara caliber!) you risk having your loaded shells be just a bit tight for the chambers. Depends of course on how tight your chambers are! Factory 9mm chambers that have been shot over the last 20+ years might well be a bit looser than what are on Maurice as that was just cut with a David Manson finish reamer, by hand. All of this should apply equally to 9x19 or 9x23 with the proviso that if you used a new 9x23 finish reamer to do the last 4mm, that newest section of chamber will be nice and tight and again, might reject rounds loaded with .357 or esp. .358 slugs.

 

[DeletedMember58]

/\

what he said!

 

[Timber Wolf]

I don't see much, if any, downside to doing it up in 9X23. With the moonclips I can still shoot 9mm Luger in the gun with only a slightly greater jump in the lengthened chambers. The thing is, I would probably shoot it a lot more with 9mm Luger ammo anyway, and I could always convert the cylinder at a later time if I really like the gun. I tend to "creep" on my projects over time and a phased approach appeals to me. Barrel, sight rib, action job, SHOOT THE THING"! :lol: Thanks for the advice on the barrel, looks like I need to get to slugging.

 

[cas6969]

9x23 reloads might be slightly slower too though because of the longer case.

You could just load to 9 Major, but you might have extraction issues, or primer issues retarding the cylinder rotation.

 

[Joe S.]

Why not 38 super?

 

[stantheman86]

9mm Speed Sixes are going for $1,000+ , hold on to that thing enjoy it as is or sell it and just get a standard 6" GP100 and have it altered to take moonclipped 9mm. Pinnacle does this but they have a long backlog.....

 

[JimMarch1]

The 38Super has merit too. Basically the same thing as 9x23 except a lower pressure spec so if speed-reloads are a factor for competition, yeah, that makes sense.

Another thing. The factory 9mmPara cylinders are probably using "stepped" chambers same as on Maurice, so that rounds can (if you wanted to) headspace off the rim with no moons in use. That is of course how I use Maurice - can't use moons on an SA revolver! If you re-chamber in 9x23 or 38Super, very likely the reamer will be meant for use in a semi-auto handgun which means you also get a stepped chamber - and that means even with moons, DO NOT use a shorter 9mmPara round ever! The round will scrape like hell on the "step"!

If you wanted to maintain moonclip compatibility with 9mmPara, you'd have to make sure you ream the cylinder deeper in an "un-stepped" fashion, which probably means either a custom reamer (call David Manson at Manson Reamers, he can set you up) OR put the cylinder in a GOOD lathe and with very careful measurements, set up the cylinder for each chamber so that the chamber is centered in a four-jaw manual chuck. You'd have to really know what you're doing here! Then you'd hand-polish the "step" out of the stock 9mmPara chambers.

Accuracy with 9mm would however drop some.

Also: since all of these shells are basically tapered (even if by a little) you will have a very loose fit with the shorter shell in the longer chamber, and the shells will be pretty munged up and not able to be reloaded ever again.

I have considered re-chambering Maurice as a 38Super or more likely 9x23, but I would never be able to shoot 9mmPara out of it, and my magazine capacity would drop by at least one per mag on the foot-long mags (9rds to 8rds). And because the rear rim is fractionally fatter I might not be able to clear the pawl on round injection - it was a CLOSE AS HELL(!) fit in 9mm but it works like a champ after I shaved and rounded the outer face of the pawl. And since factory 9mm+P+ ammo is shipping now that is extremely hot (Winchester 127gr Ranger-T +P+, Federal's HST "police only" series, Underwood and Buffalo Bore +P+ stuff) I think I've got plenty of power on tap just with that, given that my ballistics should be close to a Glock17 or even 17L.

just get a standard 6" GP100 and have it altered to take moonclipped 9mm. Pinnacle does this but they have a long backlog.....

Ye GODS you don't want to do that. Accuracy and raw power would suck.

Here's why.

The shell on a 357Mag is longer than 9mm, right? And the shell is a lot fatter than the 9mm bullet - even if you used .357" or .358" slugs they're going to rattle around loose before hitting the final forcing cone at the end of that long chamber. That will cause the bullet to hit the final forcing cone at God only knows what funky angle...much like shooting 22LR in a 22Mag chamber on a Single Six.

Yet power will be down because during that "rattle around loose" phase before hitting the forcing cone, you'll get ferocious blow-by past the bullet.

Yikes.

Maurice's chambers (very custom Ruger New Vaquero) are very different indeed. The area just in front of the shell is very tight to the bullet and then drops rapidly to .3555" and stays that way for the better part of an inch. In that length the bullet is very tight, builds up a big head of steam with no blow-by and comes out of there straight into the barrel's forcing cone, dropping a fraction more down to .355". A stock S&W snubbie five-shot 9mm with the same sort of "long straight throat" cylinder has been recorded doing velocities equivalent to a Glock 19, because of the extra head of steam it builds in that long straight throat with no constriction at the end. Maurice is the same setup but with a slightly longer cylinder and a 3.25" very high quality barrel after the cylinder...which is why I think my velocities will match a G17 at minimum.

You can't get that kind of setup without a custom cylinder in a GP100. Bowen has a cylinder blank for the K-frame S&W that could get you to a point similar to Maurice but in DA instead of SA. BUT...hmmm...you MIGHT be able to use a GP100 in the seven-shot .327 cylinder as a starting point. Re-chamber that to 9mmPara, get some 7rd moons made up somehow? Or convert it to magazine feeding and gas-powered autoejection of shells, end up with a DA cousin of Maurice?

 

[JimMarch1]

Regarding the GP100 in 327 converted to a 7rd 9mmPara:

The case width (not including rim) on the .327 is .337 while the 9mm shell at it's widest is .392. So that's a difference of .055" which is a shade under 1.4mm. Well that's not bad. So if we look at the pics of the cylinder in question:

http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-327s.htm

...we get...hmmm...yeah, you could decrease the width between those chambers by 1.4mm (or .055", however you can best visualize it) and leave plenty of beef.

If we then to a "Maurice-style" ejector and magazine, we can insert and eject from the two widest rounds, which would be one additional chamber out (each side) from the firing chamber. And that means excellent clearance from the hand guts, cylinder release (not that we'd need THAT very often any more!) and...yeah. Huh. You know what? This is potentially the cleanest way to get a "DA Maurice" ever.

 

[KurtC]

There is a Bowen Speed Six in 9x23 on GB ending today. 8)