Serial number 'anomoly'......

[rugerguy]

often talked about as to how "boogered" or uneven any particular serial number may appear on any given Ruger ..........

except for the 'stupid' gold "hi lite" in the rollmarking, the gun is mint ,in the box.........................

picked it up along with a boxed Super Bearcat today at the show........

 

[americal]

VERY good indeed as for serial# it don't bother me but Like we say never know what we are going to see on a Ruger :!: IN A hurry guy-- new guy--old guy--mad guy-- didn't care guy-- never know on a assembly line but we know he was a ( rugerguy) because he worked for RUGER :lol:

 

[radicalrod]

Hey Dan, did ya buy them with the "WINNINGS".........Mrs Radical said she ran into you and Mrs Rugerguy.........her MOM was the BIG WINNER........came home with 500 more than she left with......see ya RR.

 

[mike722]

based on some Ohio prices, did you get paid to take them? :lol:

 

[chet15]

Anybody else got a good closeup pic of a 90- serial number? Dan's gun looks about as "handstamped" as it can get.
And it might be me, but what about that big "X" under the "1" digit.
Have you had the trigger guard off? Matching sn?
Chet15

 

[rugerguy]

under a glass, that first number "1" had chips or some such , under the die...........
our guess was the die stamper was dirty and cruded...maybe the "last gun of the day" or a "friday gun" or one last stamp before 'lunch'.. :roll:

 

[chet15]

under a glass, that first number "1" had chips or some such , under the die...........
our guess was the die stamper was dirty and cruded...maybe the "last gun of the day" or a "friday gun" or one last stamp before 'lunch'.. :roll:

Maybe. Something just doesn't quite look right there.
Eager to see another closeup of a 90- gun. Maybe I'll get a chance to post our 90- for comparison.
Chet15

 

[chet15]

Here's a pic comparison of two 90- sn's.

Note on the 2nd gun that the digits are fairly evenly spaced West to East, but have some misalignment from North to South, this being normal.
Dan's gun has several issues all across the board...West to East.
Not trying to stir the pot here, but somebody explain how a sn can happen like that...with misalignment from West to East...when using a serial number indexing head like the three shown in JD's P&R book on pages 110 and 111.
I know, none of this matters, but I vote hand stamped.
And if hand-stamped, was this done to be sure one of the digits fell right on top of whatever that is under the "1" digit?
Dan...I'm still curious how the sn appears on the underside of the trigger guard. Is the number all there (including te 90- prefix) and does it appear hand stamped as well? The reason I ask is I believe the underside of the trigger guards were also rollmarked by the very same indexing heads in the rollmarking/stamping machine. As I recall, the 90- and 91- of the brass guard guns does not appear on the underside, although at least part of the dash is often present (when putting the serial number on, the void of the trigger hole in the guard did not allow the 90- and 91- to be stamped).
Chet15

 

[Ale-8(1)]

So the number-stamper thingy had to be able to stamp TWO identical numbers before automaticaly indexing to the next number?

Oooooo, tricky!

 

[chet15]

No...I don't think they would have done that. I think they would have run a batch of BC's through the machine to stamp the serial number. Then fit the guard and send them back through to put the sn on the guard.

If they did it by stamping a number on the frame first, then the guard, then a frame would have meant somebody would be changing the fixture every time to do a single frame, then a guard, then a single frame etc. etc. But who knows? Maybe there was an easy way to do it that way?
Chet15

 

[Heliman]

I have one of those "anomolies" too. Just happens to be my 38spc Speed Six. Must have been stamped at quittn' time! :wink:

Dave

 

[chet15]

Dave

Yup, that's the more common example of North to South misalignment. Actually, guns may have been numbered like this all day long.
Chet15

 

[Coogs]

I think the reason it's screwed up is that it was a transplanted "flatlander" working @ the factory, done it!!!! Dan, RR...................love ya guys, Coogs. :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[rugerguy]

nah,bottom line is its a "loose" fixture,too much spacing, north ,south side to side , as well as the size of the 'dash" in between, change in the numerals ( it is about 4 thousand numbers later, and knowing Bill, he bought stuff from the "low bidder', and then figure in the adaptness of the operator...they "hand stamp" "S", "U" and "D" and are totally different font ( that of a 'hand stamp') and those of a die , in a fixture..as well as the fact this is stamped in aluminum, and softer, ....the older ,smaller serial numbers, were less noticeable, and did NOT stand out and you seldon saw these "oddities" as "often" ,why in Gods green acres does "QC" allow for thes kinds of things to go out the door? seldom EVER saw this with ANY Colt or S&W.........gee maybe its US, as we are the only ones who LIKE,COLLECT and spend big bucks on ""plum" guns and "seconds"... :shock:

 

[Ale-8(1)]

We're probably the only people who care. A somewhat "funny" number doesn't affect the function of the gun a whit.

 

[chet15]

nah,bottom line is its a "loose" fixture,too much spacing, north ,south side to side , as well as the size of the 'dash" in between, change in the numerals ( it is about 4 thousand numbers later, and knowing Bill, he bought stuff from the "low bidder', and then figure in the adaptness of the operator...they "hand stamp" "S", "U" and "D" and are totally different font ( that of a 'hand stamp') and those of a die , in a fixture..as well as the fact this is stamped in aluminum, and softer, ....the older ,smaller serial numbers, were less noticeable, and did NOT stand out and you seldon saw these "oddities" as "often" ,why in Gods green acres does "QC" allow for thes kinds of things to go out the door? seldom EVER saw this with ANY Colt or S&W.........gee maybe its US, as we are the only ones who LIKE,COLLECT and spend big bucks on ""plum" guns and "seconds"... :shock:

What does the underside of the trigger guard look like Dan? I know nobody else gives a hoot, but I do. I happen to like trying to figure out the wheres and whyfores, rather than just going with the dull ole' status quo/nobody wants to learn anything new kinda syndrome.
There's a reason for everything you know.
Chet15

 

[rugerguy]

here it is and note ,NO chip 'under the numeral 1...'


though heavier ( newer digit?)

and a bit out of line too.........but hey this is "inside the gun..."

 

[Ale-8(1)]

The question is . . . does it appear that the inside number was done with the same tooling as the outside number?

I ask because while there are pictures posted, you have the actual pieces/parts in your hands.

 

[rugerguy]

I'd say it sure is close as well as the fact the first digit is a different font, a bit larger , in both cases..( minus the 90-prefix of course)
I stand by the the 'looseness' in the fixture comment...................I looked at all the 'cats on hand and they are all over the place..........as well as different fonts (newer vs. older dies??)

 

[chet15]

The question is . . . does it appear that the inside number was done with the same tooling as the outside number?

This one was

Now, pulling the trigger guard off of our 90-09139 I found the last five digits of the serial number stamped on the underside of the guard, precisely like Dan's 133xx gun. So the pic. above is evidently off a 91- prefix Super (the guard was purchased from a parts vendor, so the gun was probably chopped long ago).
But note the dash in front of the sn. The same sn equipment was used to stamp the sn on this guard as would have been used to stamp the number on the gun itself, the trigger hole just does not allow the 91 to be seen.
Chet15

 

[Ale-8(1)]

OK, to me the number on the inside of Dan's trigger guard was stamped by a different "device" entirely than the number on the outside of the frame.

In addition, while ther's plenty of room for the "hyphen" , and in fact the 90 prefix, to appear on the trigger guard, they do not.

That's how I see it . . . different stamping operation altogether.



PS Chad, check your PM's.

 

[chet15]

OK, to me the number on the inside of Dan's trigger guard was stamped by a different "device" entirely than the number on the outside of the frame.
In addition, while ther's plenty of room for the "hyphen" , and in fact the 90 prefix, to appear on the trigger guard, they do not.
That's how I see it . . . different stamping operation altogether.

Yea, maybe. Ruger might have had a spare number stamping machine set over to the side to do Bearcat guards only. Who knows. What I was curious about on Dan's guard was if the sn was the same crumpled up mess on the underside of his trigger guard or not.
I do know that when I visited Southport in 1991 they had one machine doing all their marking, for all guns…all serial numbers, all rollmarks everything. Doesn’t mean they only had one machine when Dan’s gun rolled through there though.

OK, here’s the reason I was asking what the underside of the trigger guard looked like, as to how the sn was stamped.

Below is a collage of the rollmark and stamping heads (the machine doing this can rollmark with rolldies or stamp serial numbers) out of JD’s P&R book.

Note that in the lower left hand image is a blowup of a single letter from one of the wheels on the rollmarking head and note the amount of space the letter sits on. Now when you double that amount of space to the next wheel in the head you should have a respectable amount of space between two digits of a serial number…all digits of a serial number. You should not get overlapping of two different numbers from West to East.
Here’s the reason for my madness…
In 2008 there was a thread on RF called Ross Revisited that showed serial number close-ups of several Ross flattop serial numbers. Most of them looked like the next picture.

But then 14992 was pictured which looked like this:

To me anyway, the only way for that first digit to get as close as it to the number four, was to send the gun back through the rollmarking/sn stamping machine.

And if rolled under the type of stamping heads shown above, I.M.O., the sn's should come out consistent in West to East spacing like this:

which has me still scratching my head about whether Dan's gun was rollmarked or handstamped just to get it out the door.
Another pic:

Chet15

 

[chet15]

Here’s a reason why I like to ask questions like I did on Dan’s Bearcat.

Anybody see anything unusual about the Bearcat pictured below??

Look closely under the number "2" digit and you’ll see something that looks like another digit underneath it. Actually, I can’t tell what digit it is because it actually looks like a letter “G”. But looking real close at the serial number, there is evidence of other numbers under the last five digits of the serial number. These were really noticeable before we put the white crayola in the sn. We’ve had this gun for about 25 years now and the sn anomaly is the reason we’ve kept it.

Now, last year while taking photographs for book two I noticed something else…

Ruger ground the serial number side of the frame off, then re-stamped another number (the same number?) on the frame. Makes one wonder why the sn was ground off…maybe incomplete digits North to South? I do know there isn’t any evidence of the older digits in between the digits of the last stamped number.


Here’s another one:

In the picture above you can just barely see a ghost “D” above the final “D” of the last stamped number. I don’t remember if we could see other digits under this number before we filled the number with white crayola or not.
You can kind of see the grinding on the side of the frame here also.
But in the next pic you can really tell

One of the other things we’ve known for a long time about the above two Bearcats is that the 990xxx gun is one of only two that I’ve noted without the SR in the eagle on the barrel. The D98xxx gun is the only one known without SR. Both guns were manufactured and shipped in October 1968, six months after the other 99xxxx and D98xxx range guns left the factory (April 1968)…which explains why the barrel rollmark is the newer type from later in 1968 without the SR in the eagle.

When whatever problem was discovered with both guns, they were both set aside to be re-worked at a later date (like the factory “second” Lightweights were set aside). Finally in October 1968 the barrel rollmark was finally put on (or maybe the barrel was finally put on and then it was rollmarked?)

Where’s the other re-worked 990xxx gun? It is sn 990290 (nine guns away from our gun pictured above), and its pictured on page 190 of JD’s P&R book. I'm sure JD doesn't know it. If you look real close at the pic of that gun you can see the sloppy grinding job of the right side of the frame just above the hammer screw. 990290 was also mfg and shipped in October 1968 and it also has the October 1968 type rollmark without the SR in the eagle. All three guns have abnormally heavy stamped serial numbers as compared to all other 99xxxx and D98xxx range guns I've seen.

Chet15

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Possibilities . . .

Screwed up number.

Duplicate number.

At any rate, something Ruger didn't want to ship, and they tried the "grind it off" fix on a few guns.

Neat stuff, Chad. Keep it up.

 

[rugerguy]

well, the "G" in your scenario is completely in the wrong spot, they had no 2 digits. still had 3 and use the "0". my guess is its a chip ( cut off metal) all too otetn found in and around any machining operation...same thoughts as to the "up and down "or side to side, slop and play in the jig/ficture and that is obvious from looing at the pictures, a "thumb screw " to hold it together?? yikes..........
as for the grinding, possibly to make it back down to size, (would have to measure and compare frame thickness ) other wise the anodized trigger guard would be really "hanging " out and over ( proud)
here is an earlier one in that range and NO grindings....

and yes, the same slop in the settings of the numbers.....................

as for the 'ghost" "D", if hand samped, again obviously a "bounce" (try stamping letters and numbers some time...I could NEVER get the hang of it in over 40 years...thats why they use a "jig & fixture")....ah, purchased by Mr Ruger from the "low bidder " ,to "save money"......hhmmm interesting.

no, we never put much "stock" in the variations (anomolies) of the serial numbers of so many of the models, across the board ,done by Ruger over the years, crude for the most part compared to others in the industry............

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Dan, if they had gone to all the trouble of grinding the frame down, they certainly would have gone the extra mile and match-finished the trigger guard. Those grinding operations on the frames shown above are so gawd-awful obvious I'm surprised they got shipped at all . . . except Mr. Bill wanted everything "out the door" if at all possible.

And I still think there was a little hand-stamping going on . . .

JMHO

 

[rugerguy]

from what we recall, the trigger guards were done by lot, and then put on the guns, so the anodizing would have already been done and in place( I know as we had some we bought many years ago, "BRAND "new" not even numbered, from a guy named Ken Furgeson at the Monroeville ,PA Rugers theme show back in the late 70's or early 80's ....Laura and I bought many of his Bearcat parts when he was "closing" up shop, ALL new and in the factory envelopes..........I think thats where some of these 'Blackhawk' 357 mag old model cylinders we still have that are NOT even stamped with the "S" proof..................parts were made up before hand ,.NOT for each and every individual gun, only the steel framed/frip frames guns, ala the S-47 , were put togther and final polished to "match" and then blued as an assembly........take 'em apart and you an "see" where they are NOT 'blue' "in between" the frames (close fit)...this is one of the tell -tale signs of the brass frames being "correct" for those gun (S-47) the Blackhawks and RSS were blued alone..............add to this the barrels, ALL of the "new" barrels we ever had were "blued",rollmarked and had sights on them, and were NEVER on guns..................

yes, the polish grinding marks on the sides of Chads pictured guns could have been from a number of reasons ( and again, if polished out why is the "G" still there or any other "anomoly".............??)
I agree with Chad ,lots of odd and strange stuff and no, none of us were ever 'really know' ...but thats what keep s it all interesting/collectible?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

My point would be that if the trigger guards aren't "fitted" to the main frames, there'd be no reason to serial number the trigger guards.

 

[rugerguy]

we wondered that also, but then where or why did they offer or have the spare "parts" and they are "finished"????????the only part of the trigger we see "fitting" ( filing or such marks ,is on the 'hook' ,in the rear, the anodizing will ( may be off) as the rest 'comes "close" to blending in, look at ANY anodized 'single action' grip frame, some are way off, some over sized and others indersized to any "individual" gun..........
and yes, over the years we have had a few bearcats that the trigger guards did NOT have the same serial number of the gun itself.....................
one would have to get ANY gun, as it comes out of the fatroy , ( shipped) and take it completely apart, take notes and compare...thats the ONLY way to KNOW for certain "How the gun was shipped and as a "whatever" parts ,is parts, and the 'QC' left LOTS to be desired, even TODAY.... 8)

someone 'upstairs' has to kick some 'butt".......... :x
thats why I always will say and still believe NOT every gun is "proofed" thats PURE BULL CRAP as we have seen too many guns over the years ,come out of the factory, that wold be "Impossible" to use, shoot or make work......look around at all the machanical anomolies, chamber that are "missing", calibers that were 'wrong'...and parts that would not, do not function, bores that are 'smooth' or broken bore cutters,messing up the lands and grooves, and on and on,,,,,,work on as many ,and see as many as we have over alll these years and it would AMAZE you, once you get to take them apart, and "SEE" whats' been done or NOT on the 'inside'...and YES, the nature of the beast and often seen across the industry ( remember our shop did waranty repair for Dan Wesson, High Standard, and Remington,plus we worked with Bud Brown from Cherry Corners who handled 'others' (S&W ,Browning) as well as did work with and for our local Colt ,Berretta distributor,Abele-Davis...been there ,done that....................


here you want it "proofed"...........??

ta daa...................

time is all we have....................................... :roll:

 

[chet15]

My point would be that if the trigger guards aren't "fitted" to the main frames, there'd be no reason to serial number the trigger guards.

You are exactly right Ale-8(1). The trigger guards were marked for the same reasons an "extra" cylinder was marked with the serial number, or even today like some NM steel grip frames that I've seen marked with the sn today. Why mark them? To get the mated and matched parts back together after they have gone through whatever operation they needed to go through.
Just think about the Bearcat for a second Dan.
1. Gun gets serial numbered.
2. Either the trigger guard is pulled off the frame or the guard is now mated to the cylinder frame.
3. Cylinder frame gets black anodized.
4. Trigger guard goes its separate way to get gold anodized...yes, those components have to get separated from each other.
5. Cylinder frame and trigger guard come back from their respective areas/contractors after anodizing and employee who is assembling guns re-unites trigger guard with cylinder frame. Sure...just any ole trigger guard "may" have fit any ole cylinder frame, but Ruger "chose" not to do it this way (to be sure they turn out as quality a product as they can...make sense?).
Were this not the case, the bottoms of the gold anodized trigger guards would not be numbered. There would be no other reason for Ruger to number their gold anodized trigger guards.
Were the unmarked anodized BC trigger guards you got from the parts dealer on a gun? If they were brand new as you claim, never having come off a gun, then why would they have a number on them?
And yes, the steel trigger guard on an OM Super Blackhawk and the steel trigger guards on an all-blue Super Bearcat and "SIX" series DA's have no need to have a matching serial number on the underside...they can be blued right on the gun....the reason they for the most part show "white" bare metal on the mating surfaces.
Dan...the thumbscrew on those sn indexing heads isn't the only thing that holds those heads together. It merely acts as an axle for the other number/letter wheels. See the big yoke around those number wheels...the big thing in the shape of an upside down "U"? That is the portion of the head that does the bulk of the work, in absorbing the hundreds (or thousands?) of PSI needed to squash that number in the frame. That big heavy fork "KEEPS THE REST OF THE NUMBER WHEELS FROM SLIDING SIDE TO SIDE". And each of those number heads went tens of thousands...or hundreds of thousands of impressions.
Guaranteed you have something similar holding all four of the wheels together on your car or truck, with a centerpiece through the center of it that enables your wheel to spin freely. What happens when some of those components get loose?" Do you continue driving it when it does?
Your missing the point of why I posted all this.
Somebody better buy Dan's 90-133xx Bearcat before he really figures out what it is. Can probably get it at those good 'ole Ohio prices.
Chet15