sc1911cwp
Single-Sixer
Is it better to just modify the Ruger or buy the FA which has ALL the attributes I want instead of the wait and added expense of modifying the Ruger? I will only shoot 45 Colt but will it harm the FA 83 at all? TNX
RUGER VS FREEDOM ARMS
- Thread starter sc1911cwp
- Start date
If you have a custom smith do the work you get a gun just the way you like it.
But if you like the FA gun, then its faster to order one, and they quite nice; like excellent. I hate the hammer. I mean, HATE it.
If you are only going to fire 45 Colt, then you might look at the smaller framed FA 1997 in 45 Colt...
But if you like the FA gun, then its faster to order one, and they quite nice; like excellent. I hate the hammer. I mean, HATE it.
If you are only going to fire 45 Colt, then you might look at the smaller framed FA 1997 in 45 Colt...
scootergmc
Bearcat
I'd just keep my eyes peeled for a FA on the used market. Even with a few rounds through them, they're phenomenal guns. The quality is hard to surpass...
Lefty SRH
Blackhawk
I don't mean to change subject or hi-jack. The difference between the 83 and 97 is the frame size? The 83 being large frame?
flatgate
Hawkeye
sc1911cwp said:
If you shoot a lot of .45 Colt cartridges out of a .45 calibre Model 83 you'll eventually encounter "difficult chambering" due to a build up of "crud" in the '83's extended, .454 Casull calibre chambers.
Solution? Purchase a second cylinder chambered for .45 Colt.
I have a couple Model 83's and cherish them dearly.
flatgate
CraigC
Hawkeye
Only you can answer this question. I fully appreciate FA's in all their glory but they leave me a little cold. More of a sterile precision instrument. A little too German and not enough Italian, if you know what I mean. If I'm spending that much, I want to get exactly what I want. Not just order out of a catalog. I've probably also done my last stainless custom so that kind of narrows it down.
cellar701
Buckeye
I'm pretty much with CraigC's observations if I was hankering to get another. I do own two FA revolvers (an 83 and a 97) and they are incredible, precise instruments and it's a pleasure every time I handle them. However, for me, I'll always prefer the look, handling feel, and care of blued steel and walnut in handguns (and long guns).
Being a Major Ruger Fan!
Along with being a single action purest!
Freedom Arms is a top quality gun that almost 2nd to none, they are very fine tuned before they ship checked & rechecked to shot very well. Ruger does not do that & can not do that for the price you pay. You can buy 3 to 4 Rugers to shot for 1 Freedom Arms. IMHO, comparing Ruger to Freedom Arms is like comparing Apples & Oranges.
That being said I wish to own one some day in a 454 with the Octogon Barrel!
Along with being a single action purest!
Freedom Arms is a top quality gun that almost 2nd to none, they are very fine tuned before they ship checked & rechecked to shot very well. Ruger does not do that & can not do that for the price you pay. You can buy 3 to 4 Rugers to shot for 1 Freedom Arms. IMHO, comparing Ruger to Freedom Arms is like comparing Apples & Oranges.
That being said I wish to own one some day in a 454 with the Octogon Barrel!
If FA had a Bisley style hammer, that would do it for me.... and maybe a top strap more like Bowen does with the old S&W M&P style. I'm talking about the front edge of the top strap, where the barrel meets up.
Cold and sterile is a good description. But they are precision instruments, to be sure.
One other thing that bugs me about FA, though, is that you have to pay extra for a nice trigger job? What's THAT all about?
Cold and sterile is a good description. But they are precision instruments, to be sure.
One other thing that bugs me about FA, though, is that you have to pay extra for a nice trigger job? What's THAT all about?
contender
Ruger Guru
I think SteveRuger & I are thinking alike. I have had the pleasure of touring the FA plant, and I can honestly say those folks have PRIDE in their work. It shows in the results. Yes, you pay more but it's as close to a custom firearm from a production facility as you can get.
The comments about cold & sterile were not felt by me. I'd love to own a FA, (And this is where Steve & I differ,) as mine wouldn't have an octogon bbl, but it would have the second cylinder Flatgate has mentioned.
Apples & Oranges my friends.
So, if the custom route is what you want, go for it. But, I think FA does it quite well.
The comments about cold & sterile were not felt by me. I'd love to own a FA, (And this is where Steve & I differ,) as mine wouldn't have an octogon bbl, but it would have the second cylinder Flatgate has mentioned.
Apples & Oranges my friends.
So, if the custom route is what you want, go for it. But, I think FA does it quite well.
guitarpicva
Bearcat
Third option. Magnum Research BFR. I hear from a gunsmith friend that they are very good and are tuned pretty well right from the factory. Half the cost of the FA. Lots of folks swear by them. Might want to have a look.
Timber Wolf
Single-Sixer
What attributes do you want that a factory Ruger does not have? There is a whole lot of gun/fun wrapped up in a stock Blackhawk!
guitarpicva
Bearcat
Timber Wolf said:
That's true. I think it depends on your intended use. If you want to plink and cowboy shoot, not much reason to buy anything more than the fine stock Ruger. If you are going to hunt at any significant ranges or if you want to compete, that's a different story. Triggers must be tuned, perhaps change springs. Cylinder throats investigated, particularly if you want to shoot cast bullets. Some calibers have better throats than others. I'm sure that's been covered here ad nauseum though. Just make a great gun even better. All that being said, you can still have one heck of a revolver and not spend anywhere near the BFR or FA pricing.
surveyor47
Single-Sixer
Freedom Arms line bores their cylinders. i had this done to my 1858 Remington by gunsmith Rob Lewis and it is well worth the cost. He guarantees his guns to shoot under 1" at 50 yards, which is quite an accomplishment with black powder and round balls.
Rob has explained the process he uses:
He removes the barrel and installs a drilling jig and replaces the 44 caliber cylinder with a 36 caliber cylinder. He then cocks the gun and drills out the cylinder hole. When complete, all 6 chambers are perfectly aligned to the barrel.
As Rob has explained in detail, production manufacturers such as Ruger and Smith & Wesson do not use this process, but rather drill out cylinder holes on a production line basis. Just a litttle chatter in the drill bit can produce less than perfect alignment. Most production revolvers usually have 4 and sometimes 5 chambers in near perfect alignment. If you take an unloaded revolver, cock it and shine a bright light in the cylinder you can frequently see how well it is aligned to the barrel. Ever notice that the report from 1 chamber sounds different than the other chambers when fired? I would take that to be the chamber that is less well aligned than the others.
After seeing first hand how well a line bored gun can shoot, I would now consider purchasing one of Freedom Arms guns, which I previously ruled out due to cost.
Rob has explained the process he uses:
He removes the barrel and installs a drilling jig and replaces the 44 caliber cylinder with a 36 caliber cylinder. He then cocks the gun and drills out the cylinder hole. When complete, all 6 chambers are perfectly aligned to the barrel.
As Rob has explained in detail, production manufacturers such as Ruger and Smith & Wesson do not use this process, but rather drill out cylinder holes on a production line basis. Just a litttle chatter in the drill bit can produce less than perfect alignment. Most production revolvers usually have 4 and sometimes 5 chambers in near perfect alignment. If you take an unloaded revolver, cock it and shine a bright light in the cylinder you can frequently see how well it is aligned to the barrel. Ever notice that the report from 1 chamber sounds different than the other chambers when fired? I would take that to be the chamber that is less well aligned than the others.
After seeing first hand how well a line bored gun can shoot, I would now consider purchasing one of Freedom Arms guns, which I previously ruled out due to cost.
JimMarch1
Blackhawk
The newer Ruger SAs (I'll lay out just which in a sec) have cylinders made with an improved process. It's not "line boring" but it's kinda "halfway there".
Ruger SA cylinders used to have all six chambers reamed at the same time, with six bit/reamer sets all going at once. This led to variances between chamber bores and throats.
The new process has each cylinder bore done one at a time with the same bit/reamer set. This is also why we're now seeing stuff other than sixguns, like the 8-shot 327 on the large frame, the new 10-shot Single Six, etc. We now at least have much better uniformity between chambers, and average accuracy has climbed past most of the Italian guns (at least on average) and isn't far at all from USFA's group sizes. They're not up to FA spec of course, but in my opinion these newer-cylinder Rugers are a better starting point for a custom than we've ever had available in years past.
The guns with the "new process":
* New Vaquero (ALL, 2004-forward).
* Ruger 50th Anniversary 357 Flattop Blackhawk (2005).
* Ruger 50th Anniversary 44 Flattop Blackhawk not marked "Super" (2006).
* Everything in 44Spl, without exception, fixed or adjustable.
* Montado.
* All large-frame SAs with the "Ruger's lawyer's warning label billboard" UNDER the barrel instead of on the side. Which means roughly 2007-forward. The 50th 44 mentioned above is the exception: it has the new cylinder on a side-warning barrel.
UNKNOWN: I don't know when any of the Single Sixes or DAs changed, or if they all did. The existence of the 7-shooter GP100 and 10-shot Single Six suggests that the new process has in fact migrated elsewhere. Reported quality control levels on both from "after the Great Obama Gun Rush" period (call it mid-2010 forward) appear to be pretty good, at least based on forum complaints or lack thereof :). Ruger QC appears to be back up from the 2007-2009ish dip.
I still consider the period 2004-2006 to be among the best Ruger "vintage years" ever, and if I was buying a NewVaq in blue I'd consider seeking out a fake-case version even though I hate the fake case colors - because that puts it in the peak QC control period prior to the crunchtime when everybody thought Obama was going to go on a rampage.
(Political side-note: at least where USSC appointments are concerned, he actually has, but none of "our five" have croaked yet...)
Ruger SA cylinders used to have all six chambers reamed at the same time, with six bit/reamer sets all going at once. This led to variances between chamber bores and throats.
The new process has each cylinder bore done one at a time with the same bit/reamer set. This is also why we're now seeing stuff other than sixguns, like the 8-shot 327 on the large frame, the new 10-shot Single Six, etc. We now at least have much better uniformity between chambers, and average accuracy has climbed past most of the Italian guns (at least on average) and isn't far at all from USFA's group sizes. They're not up to FA spec of course, but in my opinion these newer-cylinder Rugers are a better starting point for a custom than we've ever had available in years past.
The guns with the "new process":
* New Vaquero (ALL, 2004-forward).
* Ruger 50th Anniversary 357 Flattop Blackhawk (2005).
* Ruger 50th Anniversary 44 Flattop Blackhawk not marked "Super" (2006).
* Everything in 44Spl, without exception, fixed or adjustable.
* Montado.
* All large-frame SAs with the "Ruger's lawyer's warning label billboard" UNDER the barrel instead of on the side. Which means roughly 2007-forward. The 50th 44 mentioned above is the exception: it has the new cylinder on a side-warning barrel.
UNKNOWN: I don't know when any of the Single Sixes or DAs changed, or if they all did. The existence of the 7-shooter GP100 and 10-shot Single Six suggests that the new process has in fact migrated elsewhere. Reported quality control levels on both from "after the Great Obama Gun Rush" period (call it mid-2010 forward) appear to be pretty good, at least based on forum complaints or lack thereof :). Ruger QC appears to be back up from the 2007-2009ish dip.
I still consider the period 2004-2006 to be among the best Ruger "vintage years" ever, and if I was buying a NewVaq in blue I'd consider seeking out a fake-case version even though I hate the fake case colors - because that puts it in the peak QC control period prior to the crunchtime when everybody thought Obama was going to go on a rampage.
(Political side-note: at least where USSC appointments are concerned, he actually has, but none of "our five" have croaked yet...)
JimMarch1
Blackhawk
>>Even so, my 45 Colt Montado had to have the throats reamed. They were all too small.<<
Yup, still happens sometimes. BUT at least the dangthings were uniform :).
Seriously, that matters. For accuracy of course, but it also means you can use cheap reloading tools that don't do a full-length resize, like the old Lee Classic Loader or the Lyman 310.
Yup, still happens sometimes. BUT at least the dangthings were uniform :).
Seriously, that matters. For accuracy of course, but it also means you can use cheap reloading tools that don't do a full-length resize, like the old Lee Classic Loader or the Lyman 310.
surveyor47
Single-Sixer
Very interesting. That explains a lot. Thanks!
JimMarch1 said:
Well I've done alot of reading. It seems that after the price of the gun to perform the following, it starts to bring it up to a used FA price.
Check and modify throats
Trigger job
Free spin
Base pin
Throat barrel
Recut crown
Check and adjust BC gap
Adjust endshake
Or you could send the pistol to someone like Clemments Custom Guns.
After a package that does the same your out $1200.00
So a FA starts to look more affordable.
Check and modify throats
Trigger job
Free spin
Base pin
Throat barrel
Recut crown
Check and adjust BC gap
Adjust endshake
Or you could send the pistol to someone like Clemments Custom Guns.
After a package that does the same your out $1200.00
So a FA starts to look more affordable.
Tommy Kelly
Buckeye
Well I have 2 of the BFR's and they are a lot smoother than my rugers. I own about 15 rugers and they are great guns. My BFR's are in 475 linebaugh and 45-70 2 that ruger doesn't offer at the present time. I paid roughly 2 times the price for my BFR's that ruger sells their blackhawks for are they worth the difference? Idon't know but I like both The BFR's are super smooth and tight lockup a good bit better than ruger's the BFR has the freespin feature with the loading gate open I like that. Even on the 45-70 when you open the gate and tilt the gun up the emptys fall out on their own. I love my BFR's but also my rugers are great guns. I'm not a FA fan. I can't believe that they are worth the price they can't be that much better.
flatgate
Hawkeye
Worth twice the price! I've had one heck of a pile of Ruger "shooters" and, maybe, just maybe, ONE OF THEM shot almost as good as the gun pictured above. Of course, NONE of the aforementioned Rugers could produce ballistics that even came close to the .454 Casull.
JMHO,
flatgate
BearStopper
Blackhawk
That is indeed a fine piece of sixgun and I want one too, but I am content with fist sized accuracy at 50 yards out of my Rugers at the prices I have paid. I am not sure that even though the FA revolver is better than that, that I would use it in a way to take advantage of it.flatgate said:
Worth twice the price! I've had one heck of a pile of Ruger "shooters" and, maybe, just maybe, ONE OF THEM shot almost as good as the gun pictured above. Of course, NONE of the aforementioned Rugers could produce ballistics that even came close to the .454 Casull.
JMHO,
flatgate
quicksdraw
Bearcat
- Joined
- Mar 19, 2003
- Messages
- 44
I shoot and really enjoy my Rugers , I have owned colts and have kept the best of the Smiths i have owned .I do own 2 Freedom arms . They are both model 83s , one is a .357 with a 9.5 inch barrel and the other is a .454 with a 10 inch barrel . They are the most accurate centerfire revolvers i have ever shot .
A few years back a Freind sold 3 of his Rugers to finance his first Freedom arms and after a year of ownership he told me he wished he had three more Rugers he could sell to buy another.
A few years back a Freind sold 3 of his Rugers to finance his first Freedom arms and after a year of ownership he told me he wished he had three more Rugers he could sell to buy another.
surveyor47
Single-Sixer
If you get into 50 yard black powder revolver competition, the difference between line bored with the correct twist, versus Italian guns that are not line bored with a rifle twist, the difference is night and day. It is the difference between winning and losing.
Sounds to me like the new Rugers are somewhere between line bored and non line bored. Given the extreme accuracy of my 1st Year New Model Blackhawk with certain loads, you are talking about a very very accurate gun. For a Ruger price, thats hard to beat!
Sounds to me like the new Rugers are somewhere between line bored and non line bored. Given the extreme accuracy of my 1st Year New Model Blackhawk with certain loads, you are talking about a very very accurate gun. For a Ruger price, thats hard to beat!
The 97 is a little smaller than a standard Blackhawk. It also has a more Bisley style grip frame which doesn't roll up in the hand as well as a Blackhawk.
In .45 Colt the model 97 has limited OAL for the cartridges, so no long nose SWC's or long, heavy bullets unless you deep seat them.
I have the 97 in .357 and it's a very good gun, but I have broken two different springs even though it doesn't see a lot of range time.
Also there is no where for debris to go with the tight tolerances and recessed cylinders. My throats measure .3575", but my barrel slugs .3585".
I prefer to shoot my Bisley flat top .44 spl. Practical accuracy is equal.
In .45 Colt the model 97 has limited OAL for the cartridges, so no long nose SWC's or long, heavy bullets unless you deep seat them.
I have the 97 in .357 and it's a very good gun, but I have broken two different springs even though it doesn't see a lot of range time.
Also there is no where for debris to go with the tight tolerances and recessed cylinders. My throats measure .3575", but my barrel slugs .3585".
I prefer to shoot my Bisley flat top .44 spl. Practical accuracy is equal.
I'm with you PO2Hammer ........... since acquiring my 2 new Lipsey Ruger Bisley .44 Flat-tops, the one I'm keeping stock has replaced the FA 97 as my favorite shooter (for now anyway).
Anyone wanting to improve accuracy without the cost of line boring the cylinder (the most accurate method), should consider sending your wheel gun to Jim Stroh for his Taylor Throating accuracy pkg. to significantly improve accuracy by 40% or more. The barrel throat is lengthened and enlarged to slightly over the groove diameter making the bullet align up more accurately with the bore. He precisely recrowns the barrel, and recuts forcing cone concentric to the barrel bore, so when Taylor Throating is done correctly, it will produce a gun almost as accurate as line bore chambering for considerably less cost. Give Jim a call for more specifics (706) 783-2131
Shadow
Anyone wanting to improve accuracy without the cost of line boring the cylinder (the most accurate method), should consider sending your wheel gun to Jim Stroh for his Taylor Throating accuracy pkg. to significantly improve accuracy by 40% or more. The barrel throat is lengthened and enlarged to slightly over the groove diameter making the bullet align up more accurately with the bore. He precisely recrowns the barrel, and recuts forcing cone concentric to the barrel bore, so when Taylor Throating is done correctly, it will produce a gun almost as accurate as line bore chambering for considerably less cost. Give Jim a call for more specifics (706) 783-2131
Shadow
JimMarch1
Blackhawk
Taylor Throating (or the related "Maxi-Throat" by somebody else?) can work great on a gun with that came from the factory at a good fundamental starting point. It can't do wonders for a "bad monday gun"...if it's bad enough, only a custom line-bored cylinder will do any real good (and that'll do great as long as the barrel is on straight). I'd recommend doing "the checkout" to see where you're at before dropping coin on anything:
http://tinyurl.com/revocheck
http://tinyurl.com/revocheck
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