Ruger vs Colt SAA Vs FA 97?

[ShortBBL]

My new Colt is so ugly that I shipped it off for a hunk of elephant tusk to liven it up!! I'm still waitin on some American holly grips for my flattop though!

 

[Yosemite Sam]

For me the FA Md97 in 45 Colt, with 5 ½ inch barrel, is as close to perfection in a factory sixgun
as I'm likely to ever encounter.

Just wondering, isn't the 97 in 45 a fivegun? :twisted:

very nice by the way

Yea yea and you can only safely load 5 in a Colt so...... :wink:

Dennis.

Unfortunately, according to FA, you're only supposed to load 4 in the 97 to be "safe". Yes, even though it has a transfer bar.

I have to admit that I was somewhat disappointed to see that FA's manuals were clearly written by their lawyers. They're more concerned about warnings, absurd safety procedures, etc, than in giving you information about the gun. Whole sections are cut and pasted from the model 83's manual without modification, even when they're not pertinent to the 97. I know this is nitpicking, but it's less than what I expected from a company selling firearms at this price point. FWIW, their lawyers say you're not supposed to shoot reloads, only factory ammo, too...

-- Sam

 

[paul105]

Sam,

I don't disagree with your comments, but this might help explain why

http://www.trib.com/news/state-and-regi ... 7f72b.html

Paul

 

[Yosemite Sam]

Sam,

I don't disagree with your comments, but this might help explain why

http://www.trib.com/news/state-and-regi ... 7f72b.html

Paul

Well that just inhales. Figures.

-- Sam

 

[CraigC]

FWIW, their lawyers say you're not supposed to shoot reloads, only factory ammo, too...

That seems odd, since there is loading data posted on their website. Still, you can imagine what kind of guns they see returned. There's one dummy a certain forum that has griped and complained about his friend's 97 that he somehow managed to egg-out the bore on. According to Bob Baker his cast bullets were out of round and pushed at such a high velocity that it actually deformed the barrel. Said it was the damnedest thing he'd ever seen. The "egg" perfectly followed the rifling twist. Idiots such as that are the reason why most manufacturers don't recommend handloads.

 

[gunslinger_h]

I have both Colt SAAs and Rugers, all old model three screws. The Colts do everything I ask of them with standard loads. If I want to get excited or hunt something that is big or bites, I use the Rugers. I find both to be extremely accurate, but I like the balance of the Colt much better than the Ruger unless I have a steel gripframe and steel ejector housing on it. My Ruger .45s tend to be barrel heavy, even the 4 5'8 ones that I have. The colt fits like you are not holding a revolver at all, but an extension of your hand. I believe that both will fill your need if you stay within the limitations of the weapon. Speed of a bullet is not always the best thing, especially if you need a fast second shot. I am sold on both and have hunted with both with much success. I have never fired or even handled the third model mentioned, so have no opinion on it. The last two Cimmarons I purchased, one Thunderer and one Model P in 38-40 had actions that were so bad that I had to send them both back. One to someplace they directed me to in New York and the second I just sent back to Fredericksburg to have them do an action job to correct it. Not finished yet, so do not know. I do know that it is a shame to put out a revolver that looks so good with an action so bad. You would think that they would check them before they shipped them. My opinion only of course. Hank.

 

[oldies]

I think everyone ought to own at least 1 Ruger mid-frame 44spl.
As for the colt.... they sure have a lot of class. The group shown
was shot by the colt @ 25 yds. rested. (The Ruger shoots tighter
than that).

 

[Sonnytoo]

The New Frontier is stronger than the regualr Colt SAA because of its heavy backstrap.

My thanks to CraigC for watching my six on that one. Of course, I also have Taffin and Linebaugh. And probably Hamilton Bowen, if I would ask him. Who are you going to put up?

And I might add that quoting bullet weight and velocity is meaningless too. It is pressure that is the over riding concern when one talks about how strong a gun is,

Well, it's not so meaningless if you're ever read any of John Linebaugh's "Writings." When you do, you will learn exactly the specifics of the recipe that safely drives that bullet at 1200 fps. Here's a link for John:
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings.htm

Sonnytoo

 

[CraigC]

No problem!

I know that Scovill has written about having Linebaugh either rechamber a .357 or build a new cylinder with minimum-spec chambers to get up to 1200fps in his Colt .45's. IIRC, we're not really gaining much in strength but rather efficiency. Energy previously wasted to expand the case to meet the chamber walls is used to drive the bullet. The .45Colt really starts to shine in proper guns with properly cut chambers. The chambering is notorious for oversized chambers and chamber mouths. None of which is conducive to maximum efficiency or accuracy.

I was tempted to have this done with my own .45Colt New Frontier but the damn thing shoots so good as-issued, I'm very leery of changing a single thing.

 

[Bucks Owin]

No problem!

I know that Scovill has written about having Linebaugh either rechamber a .357 or build a new cylinder with minimum-spec chambers to get up to 1200fps in his Colt .45's. IIRC, we're not really gaining much in strength but rather efficiency. Energy previously wasted to expand the case to meet the chamber walls is used to drive the bullet. The .45Colt really starts to shine in proper guns with properly cut chambers. The chambering is notorious for oversized chambers and chamber mouths. None of which is conducive to maximum efficiency or accuracy.

As was mentioned earlier, and in Linebaugh's writings, going to a .454" cast bullet with fat throated .45 Blackhawks will make all the difference in the world. Mine run .455-6" and accuracy with .452" bullets was "uninspiring" to say the least! But with the bigger cast bullets, accy immediately shrank to 1.5-2" range, just as Linebaugh promised. Last week I shot some 300 gr cast bullets to 1250 fps with less than max Linebaugh data charges of W296 with fine accuracy. All the Linebaugh data I've tried has been spot on as to velocity too. IMO, John Linebaugh is the "Elmer Keith" of the .45 Colt! (If you savvy my drift) Follow his advice and you'll be happy with a .45 BH's performance.. (Even with the out of whack critical dimensions)....Dennis :wink:

 

[CraigC]

It's real easy if you cast your own bullets but I don't and have no plans to in the foreseeable future. 90% or more of the cast bullets on the market are sized .451" - .452". But the bigger cast bullets don't do anything for the loss of velocity and overworking of the cases. All of which are why it's so easy for me to all but completely disregard the .45Colt in favor of the .44Mag for 'most' duties. The .45 is fat and inefficient in weaker platforms. Where it really shines is running at 50,000psi in the custom five-shots where I'd rather have a .475 or .500 anyway.

 

[Bucks Owin]

It's real easy if you cast your own bullets but I don't and have no plans to in the foreseeable future. 90% or more of the cast bullets on the market are sized .451" - .452". But the bigger cast bullets don't do anything for the loss of velocity and overworking of the cases. All of which are why it's so easy for me to all but completely disregard the .45Colt in favor of the .44Mag for 'most' duties. The .45 is fat and inefficient in weaker platforms. Where it really shines is running at 50,000psi in the custom five-shots where I'd rather have a .475 or .500 anyway.

Well, no disrespect, but you need to read "The Myth" article a little closer. The .45 Colt certainly does not need to run at "50,000 PSI" ( :shock: ) to perform! In fact, it'll outgun the .44 mag at 30K and use a shorter barrel to do it! "Neck sizing" only the first 1/3rd of the case helps with "overworking" from fat chambers and while I don't shoot a lot of jacketed .452" bullets, I have no problem with velocity with them, (1400+ with 250 XTP) they just aren't as accurate in my gun. I loved my .44 FT, and it's accuracy was wonderful but I'm here to tell you, just try and push a 300 gr .44 to the same velocity as that weight in the Ruger .45 and see if your cases fall out of the cylinder after firing! You may need 50K in the .44 to get the same velocity, certainly every bit of the .44's 43,500! Not trying to start another .44 vs .45 bruhaha here but facts is facts. At SAAMI .45 Colt pressures, yes, one can have some troubles with the big .45 case with powder position but some savvy powder selection can fix that. (EG, Don't follow 75 yr old E.K. advice with Unique and 2400, we've got some better powders now! Disregard the advice, not the .45 Colt) Titegroup is a good one at cowboy velocities....JMO, Dennis Oh BTW, there ARE some cast bullet providers out there that'll let you specify sizing to .454", most know of the need for them. (with a little research...) :wink:

 

[CraigC]

I didn't say it had to run at 50,000psi to perform. I said it only really begins to shine at that level, where its cavernous case capacity really pays off.

I've read the "Myth" article numerous times and refer to it quite often. .45 fans like to quote it as gospel and that's fine but you must keep things in perspective. You can't just read it as a blanket "the .45 is better than the .44Mag" like most seem to do. Yes, running at equal pressures, I would expect the .45 with more powder to push the same weight bullet to higher velocities. The fly here being that you don't run the .45 at equal pressures in the standard large frame guns. This must be kept in mind when saying "same with less barrel". When both are run at their potential for the six shot guns, the results are very similar in similar barrel lengths. Looking at current Hodgdon data however, the .44Mag has a 100fps advantage across the board, right up to 355gr. The added bonus being that you don't have to monkey with the average .44Mag to get it to shoot. I have four of them that shoot into 2"@50yds right out of the box.

At SAAMI pressures the .45Colt uses a lot more powder to get the same work done compared to a much more efficient cartridge like the .44Spl. It's a big blackpowder cartridge and most of that space is wasted unless you're running 50,000psi.

I'm not dogging the .45Colt, I own several and they are wonderful guns. I just don't drink the .45 Kool Aid and consider my opinion a little more grounded in reality than many. The difference is minimal and when the true believers start talking they forget about the pitfalls. There are no free lunches. A lot of what gets repeated, like "the .45 outperforms the .44Mag with less recoil" is just complete hogwash. The .45 has a little more frontal area and that is all.

 

[Dale53]

CraigC;
+1 to what you have said here. I, too, have both the Ruger .45 Colts and Ruger and Smith .44 Magnums.

Enough power is ENOUGH! Properly reloaded with GOOD bullets either will get the job done on medium big game and I would be happy in the field with either (and HAVE been).

Bullet placement will solve a LOT of problems regarding power levels and without good bullet placement it really doesn't matter much WHAT you shot them "around the edges" with.

For the record, I am also the proud owner and user of the Ruger .44 Lipsey Special (just wish it had been here for the last fifty years :mrgreen.

Dale53

 

[Sonnytoo]

It's real easy if you cast your own bullets but I don't and have no plans to in the foreseeable future. 90% or more of the cast bullets on the market are sized .451" - .452".

I agree that larger diameter cast bullets are rather hard to find, but this is where Beartooth Bullets shines. Their bullets are hand-cast and then heat-treated to the same hardness as straight Linotype.
They have a 255 gr WFN PB in .452-.453-.454" which will also work in the shorter cylinders of the FA model 97.
They market a 265 Keith PB, a true Keith design with three equal-width driving bands and a square-bottom lube groove. It comes in these o.d.'s:
.452, .453, .454, .455, .4555, .456, and .457 which is enough to feed just about any large-chambered gun (including Colts) out there.
Beartooth Bullets are not cheap, and I consider them the Lexus or Lincoln of cast bullets. I just got a shipment from them today. I don't buy 1000's from them at a time, but rather I shoot cheaper stuff for informal plinking and save these for more serious work like hunting. J. Marshall Stanton has taken elk with his bullets. I am very impressed with their products.
Their .44 bullets of "standard" weight (240 gr through 280 grain) are available generally up to, and including, .432."
They also will size the bullets to YOUR specification, without charge.
They market a Technical Manual for about 15 bucks, by J. Marshall Stanton, that is a remarkable collection of data that I have found to be an excellent reference. I like it so much that I have bought several and had them sent to handgunner friends.
I realize that you already are aware of Beartooth, but I wanted to post this informational stuff for the other folks out there.
Sonnytoo

 

[CraigC]

I don't know how they're doing now but the last time I ordered from Beartooth it took over a year to get them. I'd like to try their 355gr .44's to test against Hodgdon's data but not if it will take that long to get them.

I know lots of folks here love the grand old .45Colt and I don't wanna step on any toes. I'd rather use one size of cast bullet for all my .45's, rather than one size for certain guns and one size for certain other guns. With the .44's including the .44Colt, .44Spl and .44Mag, this is just simply not a problem. I guess I just don't have the affinity for the cartridge that others do or believe there's any reason whatsoever to choose it over the .44's.

 

[Sonnytoo]

I don't know how they're doing now but the last time I ordered from Beartooth it took over a year to get them. I'd like to try their 355gr .44's to test against Hodgdon's data but not if it will take that long to get them.

As you are aware, CraigC, there was a time, about one year ago, when Obama was elected and everyone was stocking up and lead was scarce. I agree that most of the bullet companies had terrible waiting times. I couldn't find 200gr SWC's in .45 caliber anywhere for my 1911. But I believe that's past tense.
I ordered from Beartooth on January 25th. I got all .44's: 280 gr WFNGC, 325 gr WLNGC and 405 gr WLNGC (for my RH). When I called, they said the long waits are over; they had two of those three in stock. (They size them per your request at no charge). They had to wait for a new run to get the third one. So I waited since I only wanted to pay shipping once. They got here yesterday, all in perfect condition.
So it took less than one month from my phone order to get them into my house, and that's because I chose to wait on the third before they shipped all at once. I really like these guys (and ladies); a real class act.
Sonnytoo

 

[CraigC]

This was several years ago, long before the recent shortages but it's good to hear that they are shipping quickly. That's a good thing because they have a very good selection. I'll go look at those 355's again.

 

[steinmannkerry]

The fact is Colt came up with a great looking gun and Rugar made the design worth owning. That may be a little harsh, but true. I like Colts too for fun. For work it will need to be a Ruger.

 

[Texas Jack Black]

Love Rugers but Colt has been around for over 125 years and some of the early ones are still going strong Will Ruger be around for 125 years?? .As for being stronger Both do what they were intended to do and very well. IMHO

T J B