Ruger CMD Chambering 200gr. SWC ?

[TheDivil]

Someday in the not to distant future I hope to get either a Colt or Ruger Commander. I like to run 200gr. bullets in Commander lenth 1911's unless a strong accracy preference is noted for 230gr. Fodder. I already have several boxes of Black Hills Red 200gr. SWC's hanging out in my basement. My expereince with newer Colt Commanders is they chamber 200gr. SWC's ok. How does the Ruger Commander do with SWC's ? Any Ruger Commander owner that has first or second hand experience please chime in.

Thanks.

 

[mike7mm08]

I have a Commander. I have not tried 200 SWC. I have tried some 200 grain speer golddot JHP. They have a very similar profile to a SWC. They would not feed at all. Since I have a large supply of the gold dots I was determined to get them to work. After a few months waiting I finally got a new Wilson Combat magazine. 47C-HV was the model. 7 round mag that is supposed to be the latest and greatest design. Whatever is different in the mag solved my problems. Will feed the golddots perfectly now. As with any 1911, magazines can make a difference.

 

[SR Fan]

I had and still have a bunch of 200 gr SWC that i reloaded and they just didn't work well in any of my 1911's and My SR45 didn't even want to cycle them i have been shooting them in my 1911's but they are not reliable.The 1911's were my SR 1911,R1 and my Norinco.I think Part of the problem is the OAL of me reloads and not so much them being SWC.I wonder how the WC 47D will work.

 

[mike7mm08]

What I have read of the wilson magazines is they are hybrid design but closer to a wadcutter designed magazine. The original military mags were designed to feed hardball. Once 1911s were used for target shooting with WC and SWC ammo new magazines were designed for proper feeding. Different design of feed lips and angle of the follower. Nearly all magazines on the market today of any manufacturer are somewhat of a hybrid design. Basically trying to give the best of both magazine designs. Supposedly wilson designed their mags closer to the WC SWC design. Just by looking at them you can tell the rounds are fed at a steeper angle. I think this is the key. Keeps the square edge of a SWC or in my case the golddot from hitting the feed ramp and slowing things up. Also the wilson uses a very slick polymer follower. Rounds jump out like they are greased. Worth a try in any finicky 1911 I would say. There is enough of a difference for me to think it is not all just advertising hype.

 

[dlidster]

... What I have read of the wilson magazines is they are hybrid design ...

Wilson 47Ds are not hybrid lip design by the current definition. However, in the instructions that accompany these magazines, Wilson points out that the optimum cartridge is a 200 gr SWC (H&G 68) with a COAL of 1.25". I have fired more than 10K of these loads in 47Ds in my SR1911 and will state that they're absolutely reliable.

I participate in USPSA and IDPA matches four to six times a month. For those in my clubs shooting 1911s, I'd estimate 90% use Wilson 47Ds.

BTW, the Ruger (Check-Mate) magazines that come with the SR1991 are hybrid lip design by current definition. I gave up on mine and sold them on eBay. Shooting several hundred rounds per week quickly demonstrates what is reliable and what is not.

 

[Brian48]

I tried some in mine. Seems to feed fine, although I did notice that feeding was much smoother if I didn't use the factory mag (or any other mag with the same hybrid feed lips). My Act and CMC mags use the straight wadcutter type feed lips. Feeding performance appeared better with these.

 

[T.A. WORKMAN]

Both of my SR1911's feed & shoot the 200 gr LSWC with out a hitch, with the exception of two rounds that had a spot of heavy corrosion on the case that slowed the cycling down enough to cause a miss feed. I also like the Wilson mags.
Terry

 

[dakota1911]

All my Ruger SR1911s do not have a problem with cast 200gr SWCs.

 

[TheDivil]

Thanks for the update everyone. It seems that positive feeding of SWC bullets in Ruger 1911's is a hit or miss affair right out of the box. I may opt for the Colt Commander at this point. If I do that, then I will buy a Ruger government model 1911.

 

[revhigh]

Thanks for the update everyone. It seems that positive feeding of SWC bullets in Ruger 1911's is a hit or miss affair right out of the box. I may opt for the Colt Commander at this point. If I do that, then I will buy a Ruger government model 1911.

You guys are way overthinking this .... With your expensive boutique mags and such.

Every single one of my dozen or so Colt and Springfield 1911's run 200 grain SWC'S, and any other ammo without a hitch from any one of about 100 GI mags that I pick from randomly when I grab a handful on the way to the range. I have no doubts that the SR1911 will do the same with properly specced reloaded ammo, or any quality factory ammo. If it won't ... That's a problem.

If you have a 1911 that won't run any ammo with any mag, then it ain't much of a 1911. The 1911 has to be about the most forgiving platform on the planet in terms of being ammo friendly ... Well ... Ok ... Except maybe Glocks of pretty much any caliber .... They were designed to be very tolerant ... Of ammo ... And conditions.

CDNN regularly runs sales on their 1911 mags for $5.99, and they work flawlessly. If a mag I have gets damaged or bent from being thrown around ... Or dropped in rocks during steel shooting ... Or stepped on ... I just chuck it in the woods. Don't think I've done that more than twice in 40 years of shooting 1911's.

A quality 1911 should NOT need any special mags ... Or 'special feed lips' ... Or special ammo ... To function perfectly .... If it does .... I'd look to the gun not being made exactly to Colt/Browning specs .... And not the mags or ammo, assuming everything else is within parameters.

REV

 

[revhigh]

I had and still have a bunch of 200 gr SWC that i reloaded and they just didn't work well in any of my 1911's and My SR45 didn't even want to cycle them i have been shooting them in my 1911's but they are not reliable.The 1911's were my SR 1911,R1 and my Norinco.I think Part of the problem is the OAL of me reloads and not so much them being SWC.I wonder how the WC 47D will work.

You have reloading issues .... Not mag issues ....

If I was forced to guess .... It's one of two things .... Not full length sized properly ... Meaning dies are not adjusted properly, or are out of spec .... Or an improper/no crimp. I lightly taper crimp all my auto rounds, and have never had an issue with any auto reloads. First guess would be improper sizing if COAL is correct.


REV

 

[Clark]

Topics like this really got me questioning whether or not I should reload the 200 grain SWC for my SR1911. I'm new to pistol reloading and really wasn't sure how picky my pistol or any other was when it came to ammo specs.

The simple answer is to use the chamber of your gun as a guide to COL and then load them up. The first rounds I stuffed myself shot and cycled the gun just fine. I've got 100 more just like them that need my attention soon. Possibly it's a problem with older guns..I don't know...but it was not an issue for me.

Clark

 

[revhigh]

The simple answer is to use the chamber of your gun as a guide to COL and then load them up. The first rounds I stuffed myself shot and cycled the gun just fine. I've got 100 more just like them that need my attention soon. Possibly it's a problem with older guns..I don't know...but it was not an issue for me.

Clark

That's one way to double check a few rounds, but the best way is to reload to proper specs, measure correctly with a quality caliper, and use good dies. ( I will never, ever, use Lee dies). I use RCBS carbide dies with a dedicated Hornady taper crimp die.

45 ACP has to be about the easiest to reload caliber that I could think of. I can do 1000 rounds in just over 2 1/2 hours, and every one will work perfectly in all my 1911's with junk, surplus, no-name, generic GI mags. I've probably reloaded over 200,000 200 grain SWC's over the last 40 years or so.

REV

 

[TheDivil]

You guys are way overthinking this .... With your expensive boutique mags and such.

Every single one of my dozen or so Colt and Springfield 1911's run 200 grain SWC'S, and any other ammo without a hitch from any one of about 100 GI mags that I pick from randomly when I grab a handful on the way to the range. I have no doubts that the SR1911 will do the same with properly specced reloaded ammo, or any quality factory ammo. If it won't ... That's a problem.

Rev,

I appreciate what you are saying. The SWC's I possess are Black Hills Factory New. I do have some 200gr. SWC bullets but since I am a farily new handloader I am presently working with H&G34 230gr. RNL and Lyman Type 235gr. RNL bullets until I become a better handloader and only in 5" governemnt length 1911's.

The Commander type pistol that I ultimately buy will be tried with the factory 200gr. SWC ammo I have, along with Speer 200gr. TMJ Lawman Factory ammo and Hornady or Fiocchi loaded ammo with 200gr. XTP's. The previous Colt Commander I had stupidly traded away ran that ammo perfectly right out of the box. I was hopeful that the Ruger CMD may do the same. While I agree with you that recently made 1911's should work with a variety of ammo out of the box, that is not necessarily the reality a new 1911 buyer experiences. Especially when Gun Makers cannot seem to be making their products fast enough.

Gunsmiths can of course polish feed ramps and other parts to achieve reliability, but if I can avoid such a step so much the better.

Price wise I would rather buy the Ruger CMD. But I think I stand a slightly better chance of getting an out of the box Commander type 1911 to reliably run the 200gr. ammo I want to use if I buy the Colt based on the responses I got.

This works too since I still want another Government 1911 and I am certain the Ruger 1911 will run my RNL handloads and factory ball without hitch as long as it is put together correctly.

As for magazines, I never mentioned what type of 1911 magazines I use. I certainly have an opinion on the subject, but I will keep that to myself.

 

[mike7mm08]

I agree that a 1911 should run with whatever ammo. But we don't live in a perfect world. I would rather buy a good quality pistol at a fair price like the Ruger and save at least a couple hundred bucks and maybe have a feeding problem that more than likely can be fixed with a 35 to 40 dollar magazine. Would a like absolutely perfect tuned by a master gunsmith 1911 damn right I would. But until I win the lottery the Ruger and a wilson mag will do anything I could ask from a 1911.

 

[brushunter]

I just got my SR Commander yesterday, got it cleaned up and lubed last nite ... took it to the range today , in the rain ! I must be living right ... it digested everything I fed it and spit it out pretty accurately. I have had several 1911s in the past along with a Springer R.O. at present. I have several loads on hand : 200 SWC Oregon Trail over bullseye and W-231 , 200 Horn XTP over bullseye , and 230 gr Berries FMJ over bullseye...185 gr Nosler over Bullseye ,,those are the handloads , also ran factory PMC 185 gr hollow points through it. Fed them all , though it showed a preference , accuracy wise ,for the 185 nosler and the 200 swc stuff. ....I'm blessed , a fine firearm.

regards , brushunter

 

[1911Tuner]

There aren't any "special" feed lips. There are only three types. The original tapered, late/gradual release or "Hardball" type. The parallel, early/abrupt type...called "Wadcutter" feed lips because they were intended to be used with SWC ammo...and the "Hybrid" type, which is a combination of the first two. It appeared in the early 80s, about the same time as the Series 80 Colts...and it was a Colt design.

By the way...I coined the term "Hybrid" when I was corresponding with Check Mate during the development of their 8-round patented Bullnose follower. I also gave them the design for a gauge to set the release point of their GI hardball magazines.

Here are the three types.

L-R Hardball Hybrid Wadcutter

The difference is in how and when the magazines release.

The full-tapered hardball type releases gradually, allowing the rear of the cartridge to move upward as it moves forward. This accomplishes two things. It reduces the angle of the cartridge as it enters the chamber, and it allows the rim to be picked up by the extractor while it's still under the control of the magazine.

This one will allow a round to be chambered slowly by riding the slide to battery. The "Wadcutter type won't allow that because the round releases and jumps ahead of the extractor. The "Hybrid" type will also allow slow chambering with hardball ammo and its longer OAL, and with the Hensley & Gibbs #68 bullet, but not with anything with shorter than about 1.235 inch OAL.

Pictured below illustrates the difference between a wadcutter and a hybrid. Here, both rims are against the backside of the bump in the follower, just before the final release point. If the magazine on the right were in a gun, the rim would already be started under the extractor, leaving it no place to go except where it's supposed to go in the unlikely event of a too-early release.

This defines "Controlled Feed." Under complete control from the instant that it moves until it's in the chamber. The early/abrupt release of the "Wadcutter" type often doesn't provide that, especially on the last round with a smooth-topped follower. That little dimple was put there for a specific reason.

The difference:

The Hybrid lips combine the best of both. It provides the controlled extractor pickup of the hardball type, with the earlier release point of the wadcutter type, but still slightly later and slightly less abruptly...reducing the chances of the round jumping ahead of the extractor...for use with short SWC and hollowpoint ammunition.

 

[w5lx]

There aren't any "special" feed lips. There are only three types.

That is the best single, concise, clear, and understandable post on the subject of 1911 magazines that I have seen. Thanks.

 

[1911Tuner]

w5lx...Glad to be able to help.

The early "wadcutter" magazines were made by reforming the GI hardball magazine lips for a timed release point, and it worked well with downloaded target ammunition and short cartridge lengths. Not so well with GI-spec hardball, especially on the last round if the dimple is removed from the top of the follower.

Enter the parallel feed lips and the straight line into the feed ramp, and the early, abrupt release. The problem with this type is that they release a little too abruptly, and literally throw the case rim at the extractor, hoping that it'll get under it. Most of the time they do. Sometimes they don't...and we see it occasionally with the round chambered in front of the extractor with the slide out of battery.

If the extractor nose angle is to spec...and all else is well...the claw will snap over the rim, and the shooter doesn't realize that anything is amiss until he starts to notice a loss of extractor tension, or...in extreme cases...a broken extractor. This is largely responsible for the prevailing notion that the 1911's extractor requires frequent "tuning" and retensioning. One of my standard caveats is that just because it's functioning, is no guarantee that it's functioning properly.

I'll make a flat statement here, based on my own experiences.

If proper magazines are used...the ones that insure controlled feed on every round...an extractor that is made to spec, and operates with the correct amount of deflection...there's no reason that it shouldn't last the life of the gun...or nearly so...with no more than periodic removal for cleaning.

And...with the correct deflection, the extractor can be run with quite a bit more tension than most would have you believe, giving strong, positive extraction and ejection.

I'll go into a little more detail on the question of extractor deflection, along with a picture for illustration if there's enough interest. Since this is a discussion about magazines and SWC ammunition, a separate thread may be a better venue. I've already taken it a little sideways.

 

[Rodfac]

I've had no trouble with 200 gr SWC's made by Missouri Bullet Co. (roughly the same as H&G #68 if memory serves). I seat them so that there is just a hairline of full dia. lead showing at the taper crimped case mouth...Just a hair, allows smoother chambering, but too much will give me a FTF malfunction. I taper crimp using an old full length steel sizing die, turned in to just remove the flared mouth of the case. The time honored "plunk test" will probably give you what you need to know on seating depth.

Case neck tension with .452" bullets is more than enough to prevent set back during recoil and chambering with any and all brass I've tried, (Federal full size and small primers, R-P, Winchester White Box and Silver Tip, TZZ, and some random US military.Nickled brass seems to be of slightly smaller inside dia. but still demonstrates equal accuracy.)

Accuracy has been very good, indeed...~2" @ 25 yds from a seated position and every bit as good as FMJ 230 hard ball rounds of good make. It's as good as a '70's vintage Colt Combat Commander fitted with a Wilson match grade barrel and bushing.

It may take you a couple tries at seating depth to get it right, but once there, reliability has been 100% for me.

Best Regards, Rod