ROA conversion cylinder help

[B.L. Hall]

I have had ROAs and used the black powder, but I have never even seen a conversion to 45 LC.

question is (I do not reload - yet) can I safely shoot the white box walmart ammo through the gun?

I know this might be a really stupid question but as I told my Soldiers.... there is no such thing as stupid questions, just stupid Soldiers. :wink:

 

[ChiefTJS]

I'll tell you it's a definite maybe. :shock:

I have the Kirst Konvertor for my ROA, have shot it quite a bit and am very happy with it. The issue of strength has come up before and Kirst says that you should use "Cowboy" level loads or black powder. I wish they'd come out and give a pressure level or tie themselves to the SAAMI spec. I don't know what the Taylor conversions say but I've heard they are the same way.

I'm a reloader and have only shot reloads through mine. I have stayed within the limits of the old Colt Single-Actions and have had zero issues. I personally wouldn't hesitate to put SAAMI spec .45 Colt rounds through it but obviously you do so at your own risk.

 

[gunboat57]

I recently bought a Howell (R&D) conversion cylinder for my ROA and I like it a lot. I reload and my smokeless 45 Colts are just at the high end of what's considered cowboy loads.

I see that Winchester "white box" 45 Colt has two loadings, one with a 225 gr and another with a 255 gr bullet. The velocities they list seem to put them above cowboy loads, but the 255 gr bullet loading is very close to the original 255 gr and 40 gr of black powder 45 Colt load.

ChiefTJS, are your reloads smokeless or black powder? I will probably make some black powder loads for my ROA and conversion cylinder and I wouldn't hesitate to cram 40 gr under a 255 gr bullet. I'd think an equivalent smokeless load wouldn't cause problems but I defer to those with more experience.

Oh yeah, one other thing. In a Blackhawk you can load the rounds a bit long. But for the Howell cylinder, it's best to stay under the 1.600" OAL by at least .010" to prevent hangups. Don't ask me how I know.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

There is no problem with the ROA frame, it is as strong as any Blackhawk. Go by what the cylinder folks tell you. A cowboy load is close to a std. 45 Colt load. Remember 45 Colt loads from the factory are made to shoot in the older Colts.

ChiefTJS, are your reloads smokeless or black powder? I will probably make some black powder loads for my ROA and conversion cylinder and I wouldn't hesitate to cram 40 gr under a 255 gr bullet. I'd think an equivalent smokeless load wouldn't cause problems but I defer to those with more experience.

Ya might have a weeeeeee bit of a hard time doing 40 gr. in a moderen case. To compress or not compress a bunch. Remember most of the subs have more power than real black. You do not compress 777
Also are you going to use 2F or 3F also makes a difference.
The Army started with 40grs. than reduced to 30-or 35 Can't remember

The .45 Colt originally was a blackpowder cartridge, but modern loadings use smokeless powder. The original blackpowder loads called for 28 to 40 grains (1.8 to 2.6 g) of blackpowder behind a 230-to-255-grain (15 to 16.5 g) lead bullet. These loads developed muzzle velocities of up to 1,000 ft/s (300 m/s).[2] Because of this power and its excellent accuracy, the .45 Colt was the most-used cartridge at the time of its introduction, succeeding the .44 WCF (or the .44-40 Winchester). The .45 Colt never enjoyed the .44-40's advantage of a Winchester rifle chambered for it, allowing use of the same cartridge in both pistol and rifle

Today's standard factory loads develop around 400 ft·lbf (540 J) of muzzle energy at about 860 ft/s (260 m/s), making it roughly equivalent to modern .45 ACP loads. There are Cowboy Action Shooting loads which develop muzzle velocities of around 750 ft/s (230 m/s).

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

This question has come up so much recently that I scanned the little pamphlet that came with one of my R&D cylinders that I use in one of my replica Remington 1858 New Model Army revolvers. This is the 'taylors' type conversion cylinder.

As you can see, the manufacturer recommends 'cowboy ammo'. Unfortunately, there is no SAAMI spec for cowboy ammo. And unfortunately, the manufacturer is only quoting velocity, while the real issue is pressure.

I agree, you will have a hard time cramming 40 grains of Black Powder into a modern cartridge. The old balloon head cases had more powder capacity than modern solid head cases. Depending on the brand of powder I use, when I load Black Powder in the 45 Colt, I generally get between 33 and 37 grains of powder in. Different brands weigh different amounts, so the actual powder charge will vary by brand. Whatever brand of powder I use, I always put in enough that when the bullet is seated it will compress the powder by between 1/16" - 1/8".

Bottom line, the R&D style cylinder is completely fine with any smokeless Cowboy ammo on the market. I suspect it would be OK with the white box Winchester ammo too.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Hey D J
Thanks for the help on this one.
I sure would like to have a couple of Taylor conversions for my ROA. It sure would make pratice a lot better. How do you like yours??

 

[Coop]

R&D ROA Conversion Cylinders are available from Taylors ($??) and Midway USA ($230.00 Blued - $240.00 SS - + Shipping).

I shot a pair of SS ROA's for five years in CAS competitions in Frontiersman (Cap and Ball) and Frontier Cartridge (45 Colt R&D Conversion Cylinders) up thru 2009. Also shot a lot of my smokeless reloads thru the Conversion cylinders. I never ever had a problem with those ROA's nor the conversion cylinders. I sent thousands of rounds of BP .45 Colt down range with the R&D's, and a whole lot of smokeless .45 Colt rounds with Unique powder.

Personally, I would not be afraid to shoot the factory stuff in an R&D Conversion cylinder.

Then again, reloading is a lot of fun, very relaxing, and a very easy, low cost way is a Lee "Classic Lee Loader" , Cabelas P/N XN-21-0526-815 (.45 Long Colt) for about $30.00 plus shipping. It will allow you to reload .45 Colt cartridges. You will also have to purchase bullets, powder, and primers. I have one for my .308 Win cartridges, and I gave my son one for .45 ACP which he loves.

And, BTW, I have always been impressed with stuff from WJ and DJ on this forum. IMO, they are both a "class act".

Best wishes,
Coop

PS: Thank you for your service to our country.

 

[ChiefTJS]

I've not tried black powder cartridge loads yet, it's on the list though. My reloads through the Kirst have all been unique under a 225 or 250 gr lead round nose or Keith.

I only use light loads and have a designated ammo box for the "Old Army" so nothing hot gets put in it. I also have a designated box (red) for Ruger only loads.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

And, BTW, I have always been impressed with stuff from WJ and DJ on this forum. IMO, they are both a "class act".

Best wishes,
Coop

Coop,
Thanks so much
D J is way above me in knowledge and class.
I would really like to meet and shoot with you guys. Just think how much fun that would be. Get out the old black powder and just blast away anyway ya want to. Don't even bring out the timer. OK bring it out some :wink: A real shame we live so far apart.
If you ever come to South Texas you have a place to stay same with D J
Jim

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Thanks for the kind words boys. Howdy Coop, haven't chatted with you in a long time.

WJ, you do understand that the R&D cylinders I have are for Remington New Model Armies, not the Ruger Old Army? I don't own a ROA.

But I do like the R&D cylinders a lot. I don't shoot them often, I only bring them out with the Remmies a couple of times a year. I always shoot them with Black Powder, usually with 45 Schofield rounds, not usually with 45 Colt. The Remington grip is a little bit uncomfortable with a full powder 45 Colt load, it is more comfortable with the recoil from Schofields.

 

[B.L. Hall]

ok, so which of the three brands is the strongest?

 

[gunboat57]

Regarding strength, just a couple observations:

For a ROA and 45 Colt, The cylinder ODs, the chamber IDs, and the distance from cylinder centerline to chamber centerline would be the same on all three brands. So the chamber wall thicknesses are probably identical. So unless there's a major difference in the material used, I'd say the strengths would be equal.

One difference I just now noticed is that the Taylor brand (made by Howell?) has notches between the firing pins which would make carrying with all 6 chambers loaded a bit safer since you could let the hammer down between the firing pins, just like the percussion cylinder. If I had noticed that before, I probably would've gotten a cylinder from Taylor rather than Buffalo Arms.

FWIW even with notches I'd probably only carry 5 chambers loaded.

 

[Calthrop]

Bill,
A very cool thing is Sportsman's Guide sells a .22 conversion kit for .45C. Stock # WX2 0144005-000-000. The kit consists of six [6] steel inserts that accept .22lr ammo and are rifled. They have had fine independent reviews all for about $50.00 plus shipping.

I know the kit works in DA revolvers so SA would be no problem. They are are good way the work on your trigger pull without burning up the cash. Calthrop

 

[Uncle Howie]

Bill,
A very cool thing is Sportsman's Guide sells a .22 conversion kit for .45C. Stock # WX2 0144005-000-000. The kit consists of six [6] steel inserts that accept .22lr ammo and are rifled. They have had fine independent reviews all for about $50.00 plus shipping.

I know the kit works in DA revolvers so SA would be no problem. They are are good way the work on your trigger pull without burning up the cash. Calthrop

Being a rimfire kind of guy, Calthrop's post caught my eye.

Here's a link to the kit at SG:
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/net/cb/cb.aspx?a=471503

Maybe I'm unclear on the concept, but wouldn't that .22 bullet "rattle" down the barrel of a .45?

Of course, I suppose if the inserts are rifled, they would have the same barrel length as an "ultra" snubbie... Maybe they're just fine for plinking.

I didn't spend much time looking at the reviews, but the 5-star review on the top of the list says, "I have not used the product yet but it does fit into my Ruger 45 LC."

"Hey, it chambers!" Definitely 5-stars in my book! 8)

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

The only thing I will say about the relative strength is I believe the Kirst 45 Colt cylinder is only 5 shot, with a 'dummy' cylinder position, wheras the R&D (Taylors) is six shot. So with the 5 shot cylinder there will be a bit more metal between adjacent chambers. But the distance from the chamber to the outer wall on both is probably pretty much the same.

 

[gunboat57]

Looks like the Kirst for the ROA is a 6 shot. They do make a 5 shot for the Remingtons that has that odd spacing for a safety position. That might have thicker walls between the chambers I'm thinking.

If I had gotten a 6 shot Kirst for my ROA I probably would've figured out some way to rotate the firing pin ring out of the way to make a safe position. I like to tinker.