Reloading PRACTICE defensive ammo?

[woodchuckssuck]

I was thinking, since Gold Dots are...well almost as pricy as GOLD (ok, exaggeration), do any of you handload the SAME bullets you carry, for practice only? Obviously due to legal reasons I will only carry factory ammo, but if I could reload Gold Dots (or Golden sabers, whatever) I could save a bunch of money, and I have a Chrony to get velocity as close as possible.

I shoot/carry 115gr. I don't feel the need for more out of a 9mm. If I need a heavier bullet, I have a .45acp 1911...

And, before I have to correct anyone, I will repeat: I do NOT plan on carrying reloads! I just want practice rounds for cheap, I will gladly pay for my carry ammo, my nieces and nephew would surely have me a few bucks poorer if it means I stay alive!!!!!!!!

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Here is a very recent thread on the subject:

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=164588

There are many others if you use search.

I tend to agree with you on factory over reloads for SD/HD ammo, especially in a semi-auto pistol. It's just my opinion and most won't flame you here if they disagree.

 

[PO2Hammer]

Unless there is a reliability issue, I don't think it's necessary to use a practice HP to simulate defensive ammo. Getting the velocity up to defensive speeds is more important IMO.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Unless there is a reliability issue, I don't think it's necessary to use a practice HP to simulate defensive ammo. Getting the velocity up to defensive speeds is more important IMO.

I would agree but with a semi-auto, it is important to get the cartridge profile (overall length, crimp, velocity) on the button to your factory load and I work on getting the recoil impulse the same also. So it is reliability but the feel helps some also.

These are my Hornady reloads:

These are some of the Hornadys from my shelf:

The HAP rounds are obviously for target and not SD/HD.

 

[Mobuck]

I bought 3K of GoldDots from pull down ammo a couple of years ago. Now those bullets are loaded in ammo that duplicates the ammo I carry in my CCW pistol.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

If you have your carry ammo all set why spend the big bucks to use the same bullet for practice. I load mostly copper plated bullets for practice. As long as they shoot to the same POA and they are about the same weight they should feel almost the same. Another choice might be Remington bulk bullets. Sometimes you can get 2000 with free shipping.

 

[Precision32]

Obviously due to legal reasons I will only carry factory ammo, ...

Why???

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Obviously due to legal reasons I will only carry factory ammo, ...

Why???

I am a very good reloader of the 9mm cartridge, very good. I have loaded at least twenty different bullets for that round alone. I have used almost as many powders in those endeavers. I have one of the best most accurate reloads for that round for minor power factor and load between 500 to 700 of them every week. I also make a hell of a nice pin/plate round in 9mm. My reliability with most of my 9mm and .45ACP rounds is almost perfect.
I have never had a reliability issue with factory Hornady self defense rounds, I can't say that about any of my reloads and as I say I am a very good reloader of the 9mm cartridge. So reliability is my take on using factory ammo over my reloads in a defense gun, any liability is a consideration after that choice.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

What legal issues?? Cite one case were anyone has ever had a problem after using reloaded ammo for self defense.

There was a case in California with a hiker that shot an attacker with a 10mm pistol. He used reloads, basically a factory clone hollow point, the prosecutor portrayed him as a vicious demented killer loading deadly bullets in order to murder people. If he had carried factory 10mm hollow points, he could have just said they were what he could find for his gun, he lost.

There have also been cases with powder burns not fitting a profile in a crime scene investigation because the load was not typical. See they look for a profile in this stuff, so if you say the guy was on top of you but the powder burns belie that, you may lose.
I would imagine it would depend on where the jury pool comes from but lawyers get paid a lot to win a case and don't care much about you or jumping through any but-but hoops for you. If you shoot somebody with a reload you better get a damn good gun lawyer and hope you get a gun/reloader friendly jury.

I would also add in a case of a home break in self defense, you would have much more latitude.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

LINK??

got the state wrong, AZ.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2288750/posts

snip from a footnote:

"And this juror was disturbed by the type of bullets Fish used. 'Elliot: The whole hollow point thing bothered me. That bullet is designed to do as much damage as absolutely possible. It’s designed to kill.'"

So there you have it. In this numbskull juror's world self-defense ammo is murder ammo.

The judge limited "bad character" evidence of the dead man's violent snap-temper past but allowed the prosecutor to paint the use of an "evil" gun with "evil" ammo by the hiker under attack as proof of his unjustified, murderous intent.

Essentially, the gun and its ammunition were put on trial as a murder (not a self-defense) weapon, and once the jurors bought that characterization they transferred its "character" to the peaceable man under attack who fired it, finding him guilty of murder.

:end snip

I don't see a reference to the ammo being reloads but I am sure that was the case, the shooter was from California and spent over five years in prision, his gun and ammo were put on trial and he lost.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

My dad was a cop, a damn good one and he shot people and killed some of them, by the sixties they started investigating every shooting for intent and being a "good shoot", it has gotten far worse for a cop that shoots his gun nowadays.

...and if that is the case for cops, it is even more so for a civilian outside of his home. I don't tempt fate by adding any "ammo" to someone else's equation. That's just my opinion, you can do whatever you want but don't call me wrong for my beliefs.

 

[woodchuckssuck]

Thanks to those who provided ANSWERS to my question.

I will keep considering it, It was a simple question, just wanted to know if anyone else does the same.

To the thread hijackers: You did not help answer my question, so why did you bother posting?

 

[Cheesewhiz]

I'm sorrry the thread took a drift, I hate defending a choice in how I or others approach something that I feel makes sense.

9mm isn't the easiest round to load for, it has as small case and powder capacity but is a high case presssure round. Powders, load windows, lengths, crimps and bullets need to be chosen with forethought and care.

...and after all that it has to make your semi-auto pistol function correctly everytime, this is a challenge.

Consistency of the loading process is very important with this round. Making good shooting target ammo in 9mm is always the first thing to look at getting to but to make a round that comes as close as possible to a chosen defense ammo in performance can be a lot of fun.
I will say that if your chosen defense ammo is of some exotic bullet type or +P, you will need to be very careful in working that load up and experience in doing that safely is critical. So be careful and take good notes throughout the process.
Good luck with your adventure, you will find a lot of guys on here that will help with any questions you have.
...and as I said at first, most here won't flame you for your thoughts on factory carry ammo as they understand even if their approach may differ.

 

[woodchuckssuck]

YOU are fine, Cheesewhiz, yes you drifted but you started with real answers

I have been loading for 9mm on and off for 2 years now. Yes the tiny powder charge window is crappy (I am used to a +/- 1 grain window with shotgun reloading! lol ) but then again, I make precision optics for a living, and holding tight tolerances is my job! Zip meters VERY well through my Lee powder measure, I don't think I have seen more than .1gr variance. Probably as good or better than the cheap federal champion bulk or Winchester White Box that I buy!

I also load .45acp, on a Lee Pro1000 progressive loader with case feed, and Lee's Auto disk pro powder measure. Same thing there, powder drops are usually within .1gr every time I weigh them.

If I don't work saturday I plan on spending a few hours at the reloading bench. I do want to get 50 9mm loaded and fired before then, though. To ensure my load will be good, I don't feel 10 rounds is enough to warrant loading a few hundred yet. I have a bunch of brass to toss in the case tumbler/vibe too. I might just pick up 100 gold dots (bullets) next time I order or go to the reloading store. As well as pick up some Gold Dot carry ammo...

I have a small notebook I keep reloading notes in. I'm not a good pistol shooter (not terrible but I got work to do) so accuracy right now is second to function. My .45acp loads in MY 1911 shoot very well, when I am in practice, a 4" circle at 10 or so yards is not safe, offhand firing as fast as I can get sight picture. They are powderpuff loads compared to any 230gr factory FMJ stuff

 

[Precision32]

Woodchuck, you need to loosen up. You threw an open question out on a public forum. Don't be surprised when you get a lot of comments.

 

[PO2Hammer]

I would agree but with a semi-auto, it is important to get the cartridge profile (overall length, crimp, velocity) on the button to your factory load and I work on getting the recoil impulse the same also. So it is reliability but the feel helps some also.

Good points.
When I loaded 9mm I liked the Hornady HAP too. I could leave the dies set the same as for XTP's. I still have several hundred of each. Maybe I need another 9 mil.

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Years ago, I found the Hornady XTP's to be a great and accurate bullet for reloading as did many others well before me did. They aren't all that cheap but if you bought in quanity they didn't kill you. They came out with the HAP's as a slightly lower cost alternative and in bulk could be found at a reasonable price for the performance. I still use HAP's for my pin/plate loads and switch to Power Pistol over the WSF that is used on my Hornady SD/HD clones. Power Pistol tends to add some wallop on pins, thanks Rev.

...but my favorite accuracy bullet for 9mm is a Montana Gold RN FMJ 124gr, it is just crazy accurate and my load of WSF in the mid range ends with a power factor of 135 in range and a surprising low recoil impulse. I can shoot these things so fast they can make your head spin but I still keep them in a very small point at 50'. I'm hard to impress but I just love those things. I buy those at 7000 to 10000 at a crack, I guess I might be a fairly good customer there.

 

[Sugar River]

Assuming you have proven that your factory carry ammo is reliable in your pistol, I would just pick an inexpensive bullet of the same weight and load them to the same velocity and practice away.


And for the "handloads have NEVER gotten anybody in trouble....." crowd, try googling NJ vs Bias.

Pete

 

[Rclark]

I would just pick an inexpensive bullet of the same weight and load them to the same velocity and practice away.

Yep.


As for me, I am still going to shoot what I load, and load what I shoot as I've done all my life.

 

[woodchuckssuck]

Ok, to clear some things up.

First: I asked about loading, not legalities. If anyone wants to comment on legalities they can start their own thread I specifically put in my first post that I was going to be carrying FACTORY loads, so that is that.

Second: I load 115gr FMJ ammo, and I have some 115gr JHPs I got cheap. Once those are getting low I will be ordering 1,000 or so Berry's plated bullets to save some cash. Seems people have good luck with them, and I can't see how they will be any different, as long as I don't push them too fast. I simply wanted to pick up a box of 100 of the SAME bullet that I carry (Gold Dot, Hornady XTP, whatever I pick) and load them up to as close to factory loads as I can safely do, and ensure my carry ammo feeds reliably. Nothing more!

So that is what I plan on doing. Seems I am not the only one who thinks its a good idea, and that was mostly what I was asking. Thanks to those that helped