Queston about the third Ruger in the family.

[J.R.20112]

I have broken in a good number of firearms in my 71 years but never have I had one that had me concerned about its accuracy like my new Black Hawk. I won this one at GB as a "NIB Ruger Black Hawk .30 carbine" for the posted $499.99. Never thought I'd win it with just 6 hours to go and a limited budget of just $525 to work with. 8 hours later I get an e-mail that I had won it. Now to my concerns.

I am enclosing pics I took at the range after a both disappointing, and a little happy, outing. I fired some where between 100-150 rounds and won't go into all the details of each string. Cleaning after each 50 rounds. I shot at 20+/- yards, didn't want to wade through water to get to the 25 yard berm.
First shots were a load of 14.4 gn. of 296, with a Hornady 110 JRN. It was loaded for my carbines. As I shot I was adjusting for a 6 o'clock hold. The best group was about 4 1/2" -5". After shooting those 50 rds. switched to a load I for from a friends manual FOR the 7 1/2" .30 carbine BH. 14.9 grains of 296 same Hornady bullet and CCI primer. Again, all over the paper. Some shots out of the black.
With 5 rounds left, everything else the same, I fired a quarter size group!!
My question to you guys is ... is this normal for the BH in general or BH .30 carbine?
First pic is the 6 targets used. The second is the center two with an arrow showing the last 5 shots and the quarter size group. Do you think NOW its broken in??? And why did it take this many shots to do so?
I only own 3 Rugers, a 10/22, .22/45 and the new BH. None of the other two, or the ones I have owned over the years took this long to start producing nice groups. Thanks for any input, including loads. I have tons of carbine commercial rounds but thought I'd rather load my own for this one.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

There is just the possibility that you settled down and did everything right on that last group. It has happened to me more than once.

 

[Dale53]

That quarter sized group is the way the gun should shoot. I never owned a Ruger single action in .30 Carbine but I competed with a Thompson Center in Hunter Pistol using a .30 Carbine barrel. I ended up using a 165 gr bullet (not helpful or usable in a revolver). I was able to shoot the full course without adjusting sights. It was a FLAT shooter (I did have to adjust my hold on the distant targets but it was, in my estimation, THE set up for Hunter Pistol.

I had a friend who owned and hunted with the .30 Carbine Ruger and did quite well on edible small game. He really enjoyed that revolver. He used his own cast, gas checked bullets and the combination shot really well.

I would keep shooting and testing various loads and don't overlook cast bullets in your quest for accuracy. Other than the muzzle blast that is a comfortable round for a revolver.

FWIW
Dale53

 

[J.R.20112]

Yeah, I know all about the "settling down" thing. At my age you have to take that into consideration. I had shot a good number of shots that morning with two different handguns and a rifle before and after the BH shoot and did great with them. Two friends shot the BH at their targets, which were closer and further away, both pretty good shots themselves, and had the same poor groups. I then ruled out the "us" in the problem.
I figured that the last 5 shots was what I should have seen pretty much from the get go. And I was hopping to get back out this morning with my shooting buddy, a real Ruger shooter, but our "rare ice/snow weather for the next two days took care of that. Until next week.
Powder here in the S. Carolina Lowcountry is still an iffy deal. I have just two for the .30 carbine Win. 296 (almost gone) and Alliant 2400 (new can), the latter is now loaded in new brass and some CCI primers and some Win. primers.
I'm sure as heck ain't giving up on this new shootin' iron, just wondered if any of you "real" Ruger shooters have had a problem like this, especially with the .30 carbine.
Thanks for the quick response guys.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

What's disgusting is when you go out with a gun you have been shooting successfully for years, using loads that normally perform very nicely, and then you get "groups" that look more like shotgun patterns.

Settle down . . . settle down . . .

 

[J.R.20112]

What's disgusting is when you go out with a gun you have been shooting successfully for years, using loads that normally perform very nicely, and then you get "groups" that look more like shotgun patterns.

Settle down . . . settle down . . .

BOY, you got that right!!! And as you age you have good "eye days" and "bad eye" days. The steady hands problems haven't hit me yet. Knock on wood. On the bad days I pack up early and make fun of my shooin' pardner while he shoots!!

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Yeah, and the bifocals don't help much, either.

 

[Tellico]

My .30 Carbine Ruger finally got "broken in" when I put a 2X scope on it. :shock: :lol: It is a old model and went from 2-3" groups to 1" and under at 25 yds!
Fred

 

[J.R.20112]

My .30 Carbine Ruger finally got "broken in" when I put a 2X scope on it. :shock: :lol: It is a old model and went from 2-3" groups to 1" and under at 25 yds!
Fred

THAT is what I'd love to see. I KNOW I can do it but ...
What loads do you shoot? I am looking into some hard cast bullets. I reload just to fill some time being I am retired and it is still fun. I do have a ton of late LC G.I. ammo but I thought I could load up stuff that the gun would like better.

And, Ale-8, try TRI-focals!!! When I shoot I wear a pair of cheap readers behind the shooting glasses.

 

[ADP3]

Greetings from the Upstate. As I have gotten older (62) I've noticed more and more how sunlight affects my sighting. When the sunlight, or lack of it from overcast, falls just right on my sights my groups really improve. Since that group came at the end of a healthy shooting session you may have had something similar transpire. The bore was probably broken in by that time too. Now you're making me want to pick up a .30 Blackhawk. I feel for you on the powder situation. It's no better in Anderson.

Best Regards,
ADP3

 

[Tellico]

My .30 Carbine Ruger finally got "broken in" when I put a 2X scope on it. :shock: :lol: It is a old model and went from 2-3" groups to 1" and under at 25 yds!
Fred

THAT is what I'd love to see. I KNOW I can do it but ...
What loads do you shoot? I am looking into some hard cast bullets. I reload just to fill some time being I am retired and it is still fun. I do have a ton of late LC G.I. ammo but I thought I could load up stuff that the gun would like better.

And, Ale-8, try TRI-focals!!! When I shoot I wear a pair of cheap readers behind the shooting glasses.

Forgot to say--I am an old model too! At 75 (76 in May) I do not wear glasses except for reading up close. The scope on the .30 and Red dot on my wives 22/45 helps though.

I am playing with different pistol powders right now and 4 different bullets. Some of the most acc. loads are
110gr Speer rnsp with14gr 4227 and Rem. 7 1/2 br rifle primer.

110gr Speer rnsp,with 11.7gr AA9 and Rem. 7 1/2 br rifle primer. Work up from 10.5 gr. Warm load!

The most acc. 2 loads yet are,
110 gr SP Hornady Varmint with 7gr 3n37 VV with CCI SR primer. Load his one to AOL that is max for your cyl. Mine is 1.760.

90 gr .309diam XTP 14.7gr 296 with Rem. 7 1/2 br rifle primer.

All of these loads except the 110 Varmint can be found in various manuals but they do not use the bench rest primers. I got that from this forum. Wish I could remember who? Always confirm online data with loading manuals. YMMV
Fred

 

[J.R.20112]

Greetings from the Upstate. As I have gotten older (62) I've noticed more and more how sunlight affects my sighting. When the sunlight, or lack of it from overcast, falls just right on my sights my groups really improve. Since that group came at the end of a healthy shooting session you may have had something similar transpire. The bore was probably broken in by that time too. Now you're making me want to pick up a .30 Blackhawk. I feel for you on the powder situation. It's no better in Anderson.

Best Regards,
ADP3

Wait until you hit 71!! :lol: Bright sun is best for me, like the day I shot the shown targets. The old eyes stop down to about f16 and the reader glasses make the front sight sharp as a tack!!

 

[J.R.20112]

My .30 Carbine Ruger finally got "broken in" when I put a 2X scope on it. :shock: :lol: It is a old model and went from 2-3" groups to 1" and under at 25 yds!
Fred

THAT is what I'd love to see. I KNOW I can do it but ...
What loads do you shoot? I am looking into some hard cast bullets. I reload just to fill some time being I am retired and it is still fun. I do have a ton of late LC G.I. ammo but I thought I could load up stuff that the gun would like better.

And, Ale-8, try TRI-focals!!! When I shoot I wear a pair of cheap readers behind the shooting glasses.

Forgot to say--I am an old model too! At 75 (76 in May) I do not wear glasses except for reading up close. The scope on the .30 and Red dot on my wives 22/45 helps though.

I am playing with different pistol powders right now and 4 different bullets. Some of the most acc. loads are
110gr Speer rnsp with14gr 4227 and Rem. 9 1/2 br rifle primer.

110gr Speer rnsp,with 11.7gr AA9 and Rem. 9 1/2 br rifle primer. Work up from 10.5 gr. Warm load!

The most acc. 2 loads yet are,
110 gr SP Hornady Varmint with 7gr 3n37 VV with CCI SR primer. Load his one to AOL that is max for your cyl. Mine is 1.760.

90 gr .309diam XTP 14.7gr 296 with Rem. 9 1/2 br rifle primer.

All of these loads except the 110 Varmint can be found in various manuals but they do not use the bench rest primers. I got that from this forum. Wish I could remember who? Always confirm online data with loading manuals. YMMV
Fred

Thanks for the loading data. Our stores seem to have plenty of bullets and primers just not much powder. I'll plug along with what I do have until it gets better and report back to you guys.

 

[J.R.20112]

OK, time for an update. It has gotten no better, in fact worse. Tried the same loads that gave me the 7/8" group the last time I reported. Up pops a new problem. I brought along some new reloads. 13.1 gns. of Alliant 2400 with CCI primers and Winchester primers. The loads with CCI primers continued to shoot 4"-5" groups at 25 yards. Tried the same loads only using the Winchester SR primers. First shot hit the paper around 9 o'clock ( using a 6 O'clock hold) with a strange hole in the paper, second shot at 4 o'clock and a KEYHOLE! Recoil and muzzle blast felt the same as all the other shots. The action was locked up tight as a tick. Couldn't move the hammer. Still had 4 hot rounds in the locked up cylinder. My shooting buddy has to help me pull the cylinder pin forward in order to get the cylinder out.
The brass looked fine, primers were flattened but not any more so than the other brass with new commercial loads or reloads. Pulled the grips off when I got home to see if I could spot a reason the action was locked up. Move the hammer back as far as it would go, looked into the action, saw nothing. Eased the hammer forward and the action freed up. ????
At the range I noticed a bit of copper that look like the base of a bullet lay8ing on the shooting bench. See the pics.
As soon as I find out how to return this one to Ruger it will be heading back.

Cases on the right are the Win. primed cases. The ones on the left are CCI primed. Both 13.1 gns. of Alliant 2400. The copper fragment is on the right.



One sample target with loads from the CCI primers and same load. Fired by two shooters. This is the tightest of the targets shot.



Target with the Win. primers. First shot at 9 and second at 4 o'clock. The action was now locked.



Not off to a good start with my first BH in 30 years!!!

 

[Cape Cod Terry]

:?: Hi, Here's my 2 cents worth. My .30 Carbine NM BH is one of the most accurate revolvers I have ever shot. If you are experiencing keyholing and shaved copper is it possible your NIB gun wasn't as NIB as you were led to believe and the bore is lead fouled? I would give it a real scrubbing with lead remover and see what comes out. Could the cylinder be out of time? Check it with a range rod. You mentioned having a good supply of GI surplus ammo. I would check the timing and scrub the lead out and try using the GI hardball the gun was designed for to get a baseline for accuracy before I started testing handloads.
JMHO,
Cape Cod Terry

 

[J.R.20112]

Thanks Terry. I trust the dealer I got it form and I checked the bore and chambers very well before hitting the range. I know what you are saying about the lead deal. VERY familiar with that. As a gun smith years ago at a local gun shop/indoor range I got to be an expert in lead removal. LOL, I've seen leading so bad there were lead "strings" coming out of the muzzle!!! And he wondered why his Colt started shooting funny.
I ask the same question about the cylinder going out of time. I do cock pretty smartly with my left thumb when I shoot a single action. Maybe it did jump timing but that does not explain the lousy groups. I use to shoot in competition years ago and still have most of my edge. Plus another two known good revolver shooters have shot this one and got the same results. The first ammo I shot in this one was good clean Lake City surplus, then new Commercial brands and then hand loads. None shot worth a hoot.
As soon as I get a RMA from Ruger it is going back.
Will let everyone know what they find.

 

[J.R.20112]

Well, I didn't get any advanced notice that it was on the way but 11 days after they received it .. it's back. I have to admit Ruger is right on with their customer service and speed of repair. I'm impressed!
Now to the problem(s) they found. According to the receipt they adjusted the headspace and replaced the rear sight blade. I didn't notice any thing wrong with the rear sight but it looks to me like a different "complete" rear sight and not just the blade. As for the headspace I can't tell that they did anything inside the cylinder, which I assume is where the work had to be done since the .30 carbine round headspaces on the case mouth. Looks like some very light/mild stoning on the back of the cylinder was done also.
They sent a pic of the test target shot at the same distance I was shooting, 15 yards. And with Winchester ammo, one of the brands I was shooting. Nothing said about the two keyholes I had on the last target nor the locking up of the cylinder. Or even the shaving of jacket material. Didn't know headspacing could cause all that.
Anyway, as soon as the weather cooperates it's off to the range and see if this beauty is fixed.

 

[J.R.20112]

Sorry it has been so long getting to the range to see what Ruger's repair did for the BH. The weather has been poor. Not as bad as most of the country but it kept us off the range.
I had a good "eyes" day for a change. The weather was 39 degrees and winds gusting to 35 mph. Groups off the bench were much better so my shooting buddy challenged me to "his" favorite sport, shooting his 11" x 14" steel target at 100 yards with his handguns. If you look just over the top of the 25 yd. target holder you will see a black dot, the gong. Keep the sound up and you can hear the hits. The videos were taken with a new GoPro camera with a head strap mount.
Can't wait to get back, I'm in love all over again. Next challenge is the 10" gong and stand I am building.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RzuYUTpl5cw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1jl8CnimfU

 

[wesm]

Wow! I could hear the steel impacts, but I'm not even sure I could see the steel target! And I'm only 37 years old.

Glad to hear everything is now working as it should be!

 

[J.R.20112]

Wow! I could hear the steel impacts, but I'm not even sure I could see the steel target! And I'm only 37 years old.

Glad to hear everything is now working as it should be!

The target is just a black dot over the top of the targets you see at the 25 yard mark. The GoPro cameras' wide angle lens is "really" wide. That is the reason I ask that you turn up the sound. To say I am happy is putting it mildly!! I love the BH and it makes a good companion to the 6 digit Inland carbine I have.
I'm almost 72 so I have my good days with the old eyes when shooting and not so good. So it is always a challenge when we start shooting pistols at 100 yard. The BH is sure as hell up to it now!!!!