SweetWilliam
Buckeye
If all I have is WSPM primers could I use them to load up some 38specials? If so how much can I expect the pressure be raised? All so in 380's too.
Primer question
- Thread starter SweetWilliam
- Start date
I wouldn't attempt that switch in 380. Not much room for error in that tiny case.
OP
SweetWilliam
Buckeye
I'll probably just see if I can find any reg. primers.
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
From everything I have read magnum primers will not raise pressures until you get to max charges of slow powders in magnum cartridges. Better ignition of small charges or faster powders should not be a problem. I would not hesitate to use then in 38 specials. With the 380's you could drop back a little and check function then using caution increase to regular loads.
OP
SweetWilliam
Buckeye
Yea I wasn't to sure about the pressure being raised.
But I just pick up 2000 cci 500's. So I should be good for awhile.
This little privately owned gun shop hasn't let me down in the past 2yrs.
I just wish they'd get some 2400 in. They had some about a yr. ago & I bought lbs. wish I'd have bought 4. But I'll bet as soon as it starts showing up they'll be one of the 1st to have it.
But I just pick up 2000 cci 500's. So I should be good for awhile.
This little privately owned gun shop hasn't let me down in the past 2yrs.
I just wish they'd get some 2400 in. They had some about a yr. ago & I bought lbs. wish I'd have bought 4. But I'll bet as soon as it starts showing up they'll be one of the 1st to have it.
WIL TERRY
Buckeye
BE CAREFUL !!! The Winchester WSPM is the strongest of all such primers and I've seen it raise 357MAG velocities 125fps all by it's lonesome. THAT AIN'T GOOD, the pressures went from standard to almost proof levels !
I would not use it in 38SPL regular loads
I for damnsure would not use it in 9MMKURZ/380ACP loads without testing it in a pressure gun just to be sure how snotty they're getting in such cramped confines.
I would not use it in 38SPL regular loads
I for damnsure would not use it in 9MMKURZ/380ACP loads without testing it in a pressure gun just to be sure how snotty they're getting in such cramped confines.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
WIL TERRY said:
Hi,
Adding to Wil's experience is a comment posted by Weshoot2 some years back about some pressure testing that showed an increase of about 6000 psi in one particular load changing only from standard small pistol to WSPM mag primers. That's certainly enough of a change to be dancing with proof levels in a .38 Spl... The problem so many ignore is that the gun may take a few of them, but cumulative damage happens every time one pulls the trigger on one of these "hot" loads and one day the gun just gives up, and may come completely apart. Sometimes with an otherwise "safe" load, which then baffles the shooter.
Primers aren't THAT hard to find right now, so getting the proper one seems worth the effort...
Rick C
OP
SweetWilliam
Buckeye
I just bought 2000 of the correct ones that should do for a while.
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
Consider this from another site. http://www.thehighroad.org/archive/index.php/t-417863.html
quote> I sent the following question to Accurate Arms.
Regarding 9mm, .45ACP, .38 , and .357 . When is it permissible to use small pistol magnum primers instead of small pistol primers? I seem to be having problems getting small pistol primers (CCI), but have no problems getting small pistol magnum (Winchester and CCI) primers.
Here's their reply:
As long as you begin at the minimum START and develop your loads in 2% increments all will be fine. The normal -10% will amply compensate if there is to be a difference. <end quote
quote> I sent the following question to Accurate Arms.
Regarding 9mm, .45ACP, .38 , and .357 . When is it permissible to use small pistol magnum primers instead of small pistol primers? I seem to be having problems getting small pistol primers (CCI), but have no problems getting small pistol magnum (Winchester and CCI) primers.
Here's their reply:
As long as you begin at the minimum START and develop your loads in 2% increments all will be fine. The normal -10% will amply compensate if there is to be a difference. <end quote
OP
SweetWilliam
Buckeye
Good info Jimbo
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
SweetWilliam said:
Hi,
Just remember that's from Accurate Arms, concerning THEIR powder. It should not be taken as a blanket statement. You should contact each powder mfr for THEIR recommendation...
Betcha the correct primers are easier to find right now than a preferred powder!
Rick C
Powder Valley shows Win. primers in stock. Slowly coming back 
Eric
Eric
Bucks Owin
Hunter
USE MAGNUM PRIMERS ONLY WHEN THE LOAD DATA SPECIFIES MAGNUM PRIMERS...period
Suggested reading. Note remarks on "double hump" pressure curves...
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
Suggested reading. Note remarks on "double hump" pressure curves...
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_st_mamotaip_200909/
This has been a good reference for primers...
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
Small Pistol Primers:
CCI 500 is more than adequate for faster powders at traditional .38 Special pressures. The CCI 500 primer and Titegroup are an outstanding combination in the .38 Special/158-gr.
CCI 550 Magnum primers were developed in response to the availability of Winchester Ball powders 231 and especially 296.
Federal 200 - Hagel: “After working with this primer and 2400 quite extensively, I concluded that it should not be used with that powder in the .357 Magnum.
Pearce: "...the .327 Federal Magnum is loaded to around 45,000 psi, some 10,000 psi greater than the .357 Magnum... In this application, at least with full-power loads, a primer designed to withstand that much pressure without deformation should be selected. A good example is the Federal 200, the same primer that the factory uses."
Remington 1 ½ are excellent with all the cartridges and bullets weights tested (.357 Mag).
The use of magnum primers in some instances appears to generate higher pressures without the attendant - expected - increase in velocity.
Magnum pistol primers except CCI’s show no superiority over those assumed to be of standard power when used to ignite slow-burning powders of any type, including spherical, and often give less velocity and uniformity.
According to Pearce: “In magnum revolver cartridges, such as the .357, .41 and .44, the powder should be determined before selecting a primer. This is important, as many magnum revolver cartridge powders perform better when ignited with a Standard primer rather than a Magnum primer. This has been proven in several ballistic labs, not to mention my own testing and experience. In one lab test, .44 Magnum loads containing 2400 increased 11,000 psi when capped with a CCI 350 magnum primer versus the same charge capped with a CCI 300 standard primer. As a result, the powder charge must be reduced to stay within SAAMI pressure guidelines, which likewise reduces velocity."
Sometimes this slips by the reloading manual people. A good example is the 1994 #12 Speer manual where CCI magnum primers were used in 2400 data. When Pearce told Speer's Allan Jones about this, at first he was skeptical. Then he re-shot the 2400 data using standard primers and confirmed Pearce's claim was correct. The data was corrected in the #13 manual with the significantly better performance of the standard primer published.
Oddly enough there is an anomaly with Accurate #9 (that was used as an OEM .357 and .44 Mag powder by a major ammunition company dating back to the 1970s with standard primers) according to Pearce. When Western Powders bought Accurate Arms, they posted data shot with a magnum primer - which contradicted what Accurate had always said. Western's ballistician, Keith Anderson recognizes that AA #9 is best served with standard primers, resulting in lower extreme spreads, better accuracy and greater velocity. However the reason Western began using magnum primers was the powder charges were greater with standard primers, and they felt that the average guy would purchase magnum primers for his magnum revolver, then use published data that was developed with standard primers. The result would be high-pressure loads. So, figuring on the worst-case scenario, the company chose to use magnum primers with its data. That doesn't mean YOU should, because now you know better! Your powder charge can be a bit higher as well.
Standard primers are needed for best performance when using the following magnum revolver powders:
Alliant 2400
Accurate #9
Alliant Power Pro 300-MP
Vihtavuori N110
This is in accordance with recommendations from both Alliant and Accurate/Western Powder.
Magnum primers are strongly suggested to obtain reliable ignition under all conditions and with a wide range of bullet weights when using the following magnum revolver powders:
Hodgdon H-110
Winchester 296
Hodgdon Lil’Gun
With these powders standard weight bullets will generally ignite reliably with standard primers in warm temperatures. However, when the mercury plummets, ignition issues can be a real and potentially dangerous problem. In subzero temperatures, Brian Pearce has seen bullets from full-power .44 Magnum loads exit the barrel at about the same speed as he can throw a rock! When matched with light-for-caliber bullets, magnum primers become even more important to obtain reliable and consistent powder ignition. Heavy-for-caliber bullets tend to help this powder burn more uniformly, and standard primers can often give excellent results, but cold weather ignition issues can still arise. So magnum primers are still suggested.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 12:10:56 PM by Frisco Pete »
http://www.sksboards.com/smf/index.php?topic=56422.0
Small Pistol Primers:
CCI 500 is more than adequate for faster powders at traditional .38 Special pressures. The CCI 500 primer and Titegroup are an outstanding combination in the .38 Special/158-gr.
CCI 550 Magnum primers were developed in response to the availability of Winchester Ball powders 231 and especially 296.
Federal 200 - Hagel: “After working with this primer and 2400 quite extensively, I concluded that it should not be used with that powder in the .357 Magnum.
Pearce: "...the .327 Federal Magnum is loaded to around 45,000 psi, some 10,000 psi greater than the .357 Magnum... In this application, at least with full-power loads, a primer designed to withstand that much pressure without deformation should be selected. A good example is the Federal 200, the same primer that the factory uses."
Remington 1 ½ are excellent with all the cartridges and bullets weights tested (.357 Mag).
The use of magnum primers in some instances appears to generate higher pressures without the attendant - expected - increase in velocity.
Magnum pistol primers except CCI’s show no superiority over those assumed to be of standard power when used to ignite slow-burning powders of any type, including spherical, and often give less velocity and uniformity.
According to Pearce: “In magnum revolver cartridges, such as the .357, .41 and .44, the powder should be determined before selecting a primer. This is important, as many magnum revolver cartridge powders perform better when ignited with a Standard primer rather than a Magnum primer. This has been proven in several ballistic labs, not to mention my own testing and experience. In one lab test, .44 Magnum loads containing 2400 increased 11,000 psi when capped with a CCI 350 magnum primer versus the same charge capped with a CCI 300 standard primer. As a result, the powder charge must be reduced to stay within SAAMI pressure guidelines, which likewise reduces velocity."
Sometimes this slips by the reloading manual people. A good example is the 1994 #12 Speer manual where CCI magnum primers were used in 2400 data. When Pearce told Speer's Allan Jones about this, at first he was skeptical. Then he re-shot the 2400 data using standard primers and confirmed Pearce's claim was correct. The data was corrected in the #13 manual with the significantly better performance of the standard primer published.
Oddly enough there is an anomaly with Accurate #9 (that was used as an OEM .357 and .44 Mag powder by a major ammunition company dating back to the 1970s with standard primers) according to Pearce. When Western Powders bought Accurate Arms, they posted data shot with a magnum primer - which contradicted what Accurate had always said. Western's ballistician, Keith Anderson recognizes that AA #9 is best served with standard primers, resulting in lower extreme spreads, better accuracy and greater velocity. However the reason Western began using magnum primers was the powder charges were greater with standard primers, and they felt that the average guy would purchase magnum primers for his magnum revolver, then use published data that was developed with standard primers. The result would be high-pressure loads. So, figuring on the worst-case scenario, the company chose to use magnum primers with its data. That doesn't mean YOU should, because now you know better! Your powder charge can be a bit higher as well.
Standard primers are needed for best performance when using the following magnum revolver powders:
Alliant 2400
Accurate #9
Alliant Power Pro 300-MP
Vihtavuori N110
This is in accordance with recommendations from both Alliant and Accurate/Western Powder.
Magnum primers are strongly suggested to obtain reliable ignition under all conditions and with a wide range of bullet weights when using the following magnum revolver powders:
Hodgdon H-110
Winchester 296
Hodgdon Lil’Gun
With these powders standard weight bullets will generally ignite reliably with standard primers in warm temperatures. However, when the mercury plummets, ignition issues can be a real and potentially dangerous problem. In subzero temperatures, Brian Pearce has seen bullets from full-power .44 Magnum loads exit the barrel at about the same speed as he can throw a rock! When matched with light-for-caliber bullets, magnum primers become even more important to obtain reliable and consistent powder ignition. Heavy-for-caliber bullets tend to help this powder burn more uniformly, and standard primers can often give excellent results, but cold weather ignition issues can still arise. So magnum primers are still suggested.
« Last Edit: November 12, 2011, 12:10:56 PM by Frisco Pete »
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
---- 231with Magnum Primers, really!!Chief 101 said:
Hodgdon powders has done the same thing as that with the 357 magnum cartridge and probably many more cartridges. Every charge they list and every bullet/powder combination uses a WSMP (small mag primer) primer. I guess just to be safe. But it does go to show that if you are careful you can work up loads with magnum primers with a large number of powder/bullet combination and still be in the book.Chief 101 said:
Bucks Owin
Hunter
Mobuck said:
The armchair ballistician aside, I agree! :shock:
gerryb158
Single-Sixer
Anyone know why MAGNUM primers don't come in a box labeled "DANGER, these primers will blow up your gun if used in place of STANDARD primers?"
Manufacturers will not advise you to do anything that would possibly infer the slightest amount of risk, same with most reloading "manuals." THINK about your actual experience and relate some incidents where magnum primers have caused firearm damage. Stories of 6000 and 11000 psi increases are, in my opinion, bunk. I don't advise disregarding published data but I do suggest common sense may be applied. Gerry
Manufacturers will not advise you to do anything that would possibly infer the slightest amount of risk, same with most reloading "manuals." THINK about your actual experience and relate some incidents where magnum primers have caused firearm damage. Stories of 6000 and 11000 psi increases are, in my opinion, bunk. I don't advise disregarding published data but I do suggest common sense may be applied. Gerry
WESHOOT2
Hunter
The WINCHESTER Small Pistol Magnum primer is known to increase pressure by as much as 5,000 PSI (NOT 'CUP'), and should be used in unspecified loads ONLY with great caution.
While I often utilize magnum primers in non-specified roles, I personally ONLY use the WSPM primer when specified, and with specified components.
While I often utilize magnum primers in non-specified roles, I personally ONLY use the WSPM primer when specified, and with specified components.
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