Potentially Damaging?
- Thread starter ctom3
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Speer used to make a 240 gr and a 225 gr half jacket bullet the 225 gr was a hollow point, that was what dropped the 15 gr of weight. It was a great bullet for Whitetail deer, I have used that load with 28gr of 296 behind the 225 gr to take 5 deer at ranges between 50 and 100 yards, it has real good expansion, very accurate and great penetration. Never had one of the deer that it did not keep down, penetration wise I shot a 140 pound Doe at 75 yards, hit it in the shoulder on the way in and it went through both shoulders through bone and stopped under the skin on the opposite side. Needless to say she stayed where she was hit.
As far as the splitting cases, I thought it was always well known that powder increases its burn rate with age, and after 25 years it could have become a much hotter load than it was, add that with brittle cases that have been fired many times, it does not surprise me you see signs of preasure increase.
As far as the splitting cases, I thought it was always well known that powder increases its burn rate with age, and after 25 years it could have become a much hotter load than it was, add that with brittle cases that have been fired many times, it does not surprise me you see signs of preasure increase.
wheezengeezer
Bearcat
That is baloneybowfishn said:
SteelShooter
Single-Sixer
Pick up one of the collet based bullet pullers, started with an RCBs but like the Lyman better, as it use a top lever to tighten the collet, kind of like a draw-bar collet on a mill or lathe.
One thing I noticed on old reloads that have set for a long time. Shoot bolt actioned rifles and do not crimp the cartridges in certain instances.
Had a batch of 7MM Rem Mag had loaded up years ago, my hunting rounds. Decided I wanted to pull and then reseat the bullets relative to the bullet to land distance. Some mechanical or chemical bonding had occurred, they were much harder to pull than even crimped bullets. This may have occurred in your rounds, resulting in a much higher pressure in the cartridge brass before the bullet left the cartridge and started down the cylinder and into the forcing cone.
Depending on how much your dies rework the brass, and how much expansion occurs before they meet the cylinder walls (yup huge difference between dies, even within the same manufacturer).
May be reason for why splits are forming as you are seeing them.
One thing I noticed on old reloads that have set for a long time. Shoot bolt actioned rifles and do not crimp the cartridges in certain instances.
Had a batch of 7MM Rem Mag had loaded up years ago, my hunting rounds. Decided I wanted to pull and then reseat the bullets relative to the bullet to land distance. Some mechanical or chemical bonding had occurred, they were much harder to pull than even crimped bullets. This may have occurred in your rounds, resulting in a much higher pressure in the cartridge brass before the bullet left the cartridge and started down the cylinder and into the forcing cone.
Depending on how much your dies rework the brass, and how much expansion occurs before they meet the cylinder walls (yup huge difference between dies, even within the same manufacturer).
May be reason for why splits are forming as you are seeing them.
CraigC
Hawkeye
Can't make that assumption any more. Don't forget the Hunter models in .41Mag and .45Colt marked "Super Blackhawk".Sam Johnson said:
ctom3,
Could you have possibly cleaned your brass with ammonia? I have heard it will turn brass cases brittle.
gramps
Could you have possibly cleaned your brass with ammonia? I have heard it will turn brass cases brittle.
gramps
ctom3
Bearcat
Gramps, good question. I had forgotten it would do that. In any case, I did not. The only cleaning they have ever gotten is in my tumbler with walnut media and a tiny amount of rouge. I then wipe them off with a dry, unadulterated cloth.
I pulled all of the bullets last night with a kinetic puller without leaving any marks or deformations, so they are completely reusable. Since the powder is not entirely trustworthy, I scattered it in the front lawn. It probably didn't amount to $1.00 lost.
Most of my case failures in the past have been splitting at the mouth that I am sure is due to work hardening. However, not a single one of these split at the mouth. The splits on all of them ran about 3/4 of the case length, but stopped short of the mouths. So, work hardening from expanding and crimping does not appear to be an issue, leaving brittleness due to age as the prime suspect.
I may as well load something really light like 5-6 gns. of Unique that will barely expand the case. Most of these usually drop out of the cylinder under their own weight after being fired. If that splits any cases, they were probably on their way out anyway. Once fired, I'll anneal them and then use them on target loads until they die. This works well for me since I only keep a small amount of heavy loads on hand, as you can tell by the age of these problem children. The vast majority of what I shoot are light target loads. The SBH is a tack driver with these and is a joy to shoot.
I pulled all of the bullets last night with a kinetic puller without leaving any marks or deformations, so they are completely reusable. Since the powder is not entirely trustworthy, I scattered it in the front lawn. It probably didn't amount to $1.00 lost.
Most of my case failures in the past have been splitting at the mouth that I am sure is due to work hardening. However, not a single one of these split at the mouth. The splits on all of them ran about 3/4 of the case length, but stopped short of the mouths. So, work hardening from expanding and crimping does not appear to be an issue, leaving brittleness due to age as the prime suspect.
I may as well load something really light like 5-6 gns. of Unique that will barely expand the case. Most of these usually drop out of the cylinder under their own weight after being fired. If that splits any cases, they were probably on their way out anyway. Once fired, I'll anneal them and then use them on target loads until they die. This works well for me since I only keep a small amount of heavy loads on hand, as you can tell by the age of these problem children. The vast majority of what I shoot are light target loads. The SBH is a tack driver with these and is a joy to shoot.
J Miller
Blackhawk
Guilty as charged. Missed the number of loads totally.
Well, you already pulled the bullets and fertilized the lawn, so were these mine I'd gently push the primers out, and load them and the bullets into new(er) cases.
No sense in wasting good components.
Joe
Well, you already pulled the bullets and fertilized the lawn, so were these mine I'd gently push the primers out, and load them and the bullets into new(er) cases.
No sense in wasting good components.
Joe
wheezengeezer said:
hey Wheeze I am told by Hodgdons:
"Powders will not become more energetic with age, they will become less energetic with age. It make no difference if the powder is in the original container in ammo, it will all go bad eventually. Shelf life is shortened by elevated temperatures."
Mike Daly
Cutomer Service Manager
Hodgdon Family of Fine Propellants
Hodgdon Smokeless Powder
IMR Powder Company
Winchester Smokeless Propellants
GOEX Blackpowder
So I guess there is a little baloney to the old wives tale that was floating around 40 years ago when I started reloading, although you could add some condiments to that sandwich by reading this:
http://www.xrayct.com/documents/data/IBS19/IB04_41.pdf
"The reasons for this increase in peak pressure have been investigated. Due to the potassium nitrate, chemical ageing is increased in this ball powder (as can be seen by the fact that the stabiliser diphenylamine is fully consumed after 4 weeks at 71°C). On the other hand, the amount of nitrocellulose degradation is not unusually high and should not markedly contribute to the ballistic changes. The measured peak pressure increase of 73 MPa seems to be caused by the DBP diffusion. In fact, interior ballistic calculations (IBHVG 2) show that the peak pressure is mainly determined by the DBP concentration within the outer 20–40 μm of the grains, and that the determined amount of DBP diffusion might well result in an increase in peak pressure of 60–100 MPa."
Excerpt from 19th International Symposium of Ballistics, 7–11 May 2001, Interlaken, Switzerland
as well as:
http://precisionshooting.com/psm_2008_07_frame.html
"and ball powder may deteriorate with age, especially at high ambient temperatures (to give very high burning pressures)."
" I have about 10 pounds of WWII 4831 powder that has been stored in dry (about 20% RH) Colorado air for more than 60 years. It now burns about like IMR3031. " 2 excerpts from that magazine.
It looks like heat has more to do with the increased preasure of old powders not the age, and according to hodgdon age won't increase the burn rate but decrease the burn rate, I guess I would have done what ctom3 did and pull the components dump the powder and not take a chance.
Eat and enjoy
Bucks Owin
Hunter
Are you using a carbide size die? Some size pretty tight...
Are the splits starting where the base of the bullet rests in the case?
Are the splits starting where the base of the bullet rests in the case?
ctom3
Bearcat
Bucks Owin said:
As I recall, the splits stopped about where the base of the bullets would be. I cannot be 100% sure now since I tossed all of the brass on the ground at the range and left it there. Yeah, I used a carbide sizing die. I think I'll go look a the cases I pulled the bullets out of to see how pronounced the bulges are in them where the bullets were seated. Brass being overworked at that point may very well be part of the problem. However, I would think that the brass would be most worked and fatigued where it is repeatedly resized, then stretched by seating the bullet, but it was okay there. Until now, all of my case failures have been splits beginning at the mouth, where I would expect them to be.
Even if I anneal them, I will never use this brass on heavy loads again. I will be sure to mark and track them because it will be interesting to see how much life I can get out of cases brought back from incipient failure.
Thanks for everyone's responses. I don't have any friends who shoot regularly, much less reload. It's nice to kick these things around with folks who have an interest and knowledge in the subject.
