Possible Problem With Winchester Primers

[Jimbo357mag]

This was posted the other day and suggests there may be a problem with some of the new Winchester Large Pistol Primers (WLP). Because this was posted in the rifle section I thought I would link it here for all our re-loaders that, like myself, are using WLP primers. Photos on page 2.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=129016

So far we have had these lot numbers reported and some photos to confirm the problem.

DFL717G
DHL774G
DHL788G


....Jimbo

 

[Chief 101]

I saw the pictures and am thinking the same thing...I am using some WLR primers but no problems thus far.

 

[63November]

I expect that's only a single lot of primers. "Winchester' makes good components and has too much at stake to let that ride.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I expect that's only a single lot of primers. "Winchester' makes good components and has too much at stake to let that ride.

I agree and any manufacturer can get a bad batch of brass as we have seen many times with case manufactures. The lot number that showed on those ruptured primers was lot DFL717G. I checked mine and I don't have any. I think if I did have some I would be real careful with shooting them, maybe keeping to low and medium pressure loads with them. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[J Miller]

I'm betting it's just a bad batch of primer cups. I've had this same thing happen before. Here is what I posted over on the other thread:

RJ556,

I had the exact same thing happen with a batch of Fiocchi LP primers some years ago. Several of my .45 Colts, rifle and revolver now wear gas pitted breach faces because of this.
After I discovered the problem I ended up tossing the rest of the primers in a burn barrel.

I do not know if the primer cups are too hard, too soft or what. In normal .45 Colt loads at 14,000 ± PSI they would develop the pin hole leaks.
However if I loaded them in .45 ACP cases at 19,000 ± PSI they wouldn't do it.

Since they were foreign make I didn't want to mess with them any more. In your case I'd call Winchester and see what they have to say.

Joe

Joe

 

[Bucks Owin]

I expect that's only a single lot of primers. "Winchester' makes good components and has too much at stake to let that ride.

10X...

Pretty rare to see Win do a recall, on the other hand, sometimes I've seen 2 or 3 different recalls in the same magazine from "big green". I inadvertently bought a bag of RP nickle .45LC cases awhile back and won't even reload them once I finish shooting them up. The nickleplate is flaking off almost all of them and I'd just as soon not scour my bore with nickle flakes...

My lifelong held view? RP:...take your chances, WW:...the good stuff

JMO :wink: (Same with factory ammo BTW)

 

[dleong]

I had the exact thing happen a couple of weeks ago when I was shooting my 9.5" .480 Ruger SRH with my handloads. It wasn't until I was processing the brass a few days later when I noticed one of the cases had a barely perceptible black ring of soot in the trench surrounding the primer. Closer examination with a magnifying glass revealed that the primer cup had a pinhole-sized rupture at the curve of the 90º bend.

It did not occur to me to check for pitting on the recoil plate until after I came across this thread. There appears to be a single tiny pit in the metal next to the firing pin hole, but I do not know if it was caused by the primer rupture.

My .480 Ruger cartridges are loaded with a 328 gr. Rainier JHP atop 25.2 gr. of W296 at an OAL of 1.64" and ignited with a Winchester large pistol (WLP) primer. This is near the bottom of Hodgdon's recommended powder charge range for this combination of powder and projectile weight and has proven to be exceedingly accurate.

The ruptured primer was from Lot No. DHL774G. I still have nearly a hundred .480 Ruger cartridges loaded with primers from the same lot, and am not looking forward to the prospect of having to disassemble and reload them using different primers.

 

[anachronism]

I posted a reply on the rifle board, but your brass is the likely culprit. It appears to me that you are experiencing some enlarged primer pockets. How old is your brass?

 

[dleong]

I posted a reply on the rifle board, but your brass is the likely culprit. It appears to me that you are experiencing some enlarged primer pockets. How old is your brass?

The brass is Starline that was purchased new earlier this year, and was on its second firing. The primer seated firmly in the primer pocket, so I highly doubt it was due to an enlarged primer pocket.

 

[edfardos]

I can confirm this. I just cracked open a new box of Winchester Large Pistol Primers and made 150 44mag cartridges. I fired 50 of them, and I now have five pits in my Super Redhawk frame, I also found five punctured primers in my brass. So one in ten fail. And I have 100 rounds of ammo to dismantle thanks to Winchester. I also need to dispose of the left over 850 primers since I purchased 1000... any thoughts on how to discard these bad primers?

so having said that, which brand of primer should I switch to? I was thinking CCI possibly? If I switch to CCI are they has hot as the winchester LP primers?

Winchester was a fine company. I hope they're not circling the corporate toilet bowl by cost-cutting. If that's the case, I'm never looking back.

--edfardos

 

[mattsbox99]

I think I'd be calling Winchester, they may have a serious safety issue that needs to be brought to attention. Don't throw them out because Winchester will likely want to examine them.

 

[Bucks Owin]

I think I'd be calling Winchester, they may have a serious safety issue that needs to be brought to attention. Don't throw them out because Winchester will likely want to examine them.

And replace them I would think...A carton ain't cheap! :wink:

 

[edfardos]

So I was doing more research on this, and found at least three more examples of this type of failure. The one thing they all had in common was a WLP primer and an RP (remington) brass! I went and looked at my failed brass, and sure enough, all of them were RP brass. I shoot mixed headstamps, so this is more than a coincidence imho. If you compare the RP brass to, say, winchester brass, you'll notice there's much less support around the failure point.

So my conclusion is that we're looking at two tolerances which added up and caused a failure. New thin/brittle WLP primers combined with RP brass which makes the situation worse. I still assert that the new-to-me WLP primers are part of the cause since I fired 1000 of them with mixed headstamps and never saw the problem until I got a new box of WLP's and 1-in-10 failed, specifically when used with RP brass.

I'm going to dismantle anything with RP brass and these new WLP primers, and shoot the rest. If there are no pits, then I think we have emperical evidence of this theory.

Oh, and I will certainly switch to CCI (magnum) primers (thanks Jimbo), since i have a lot of RP brass.

--edfardos

 

[Bucks Owin]

I had a peek at Winchester.com site and there's no mention of a recall...

You might try toll-free 866-423-5224 and see what develops... :wink:

 

[edfardos]

Talked to Olin (winchester ammunition). They want the failed primers, the brass they were in, and 10-15 live rounds with the suspect primers. They're sending a UPS guy out to pick'm up. The letter in the box reads:

===========================================

Dear Winchester Ammunition / Olin, (per conversation w/ phone tech)

Last year, I loaded and fired 1000 of these:

44mag brass, mixed headstamps, 1-3 reloads each
WLP primer
23.5grains of H110 (23.0 is min, 24.0 is max)
Oregon Trail Bullet Company 240grain lead cast wad cutter

They all functioned perfectly. Having ran out of WLP primers, I purchased a
new lot of 1000 (lot #included). I then made 200 of the same loads (10 live
rounds included), the only difference beeing the new lot of WLP primers.

I fired 50 of these loads and four primers pierced at the primer's
shoulder. I noticed this when i cleaned the firearm, and four pits were
etched into the recoil shield (ruger super redhawk). I recovered the
failed cartridges and deprimed to discover pinholes in four of the of
new WLP primers.

This is getting attention on the internet as I'm not the only one
with an aparent bad lot of WLP primers.

Lot#'s include:
DFL717G
DHL774G
DHL788G (included in this box)

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=129224
http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=129016&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=30

There is also a propensity for this to happen with RP(remington) brass (which
I've provided). You'll notice RP brass has more of a radius at the entrace
to the primer cup, leaving less support where the primer failed. Also, I
made more of a point of fully seating primers in the 50 I fired (of which
four failed), i'm not sure if that helps or not.

I'm disappointed because I've exclusively use Winchester/Olin primers in
all my firearms for years. I just discovered one similar gas-cut pit in my
Remmington model 700 bolt face (WLR primers). So I have two irreperably
damaged firearms, 800 suspect WLP primers, and 1000 WLR primers (all purchased
at the same time).


thank you for your support,


.....

 

[Bucks Owin]

Cool beans... :wink:

 

[dleong]

I called Olin this afternoon and spoke with a tech named Donny. He wants me to send 5 of my .480 Ruger cartridges assembled with the defective primers to them for evaluation, indicating that it would take them about 6 weeks to get back to me with the results. He said the cartridges would be fired and if the primers don't puncture, they won't replace the ones I currently have from the defective lot. He did not want me to send back the defective primers.

I can't say I'm too happy about this. If the five sample cartridges I send him happen by chance to light off without puncturing the primers, I'm stuck with nearly 2000 WLP primers that are still of suspect quality.

 

[edfardos]

I gave'm 10 rounds to "evaluate". Make sure they're in RP brass if you send them samples of their bad primers, they tend to exacerbate the issue. I give the primers a 50/50 chance of staying in tact in RP (remington) brass.

I'm going to junk my entire lot of WLP primers (1000) and switch to CCI.

--edfardos

 

[edfardos]

I confirmed that rp brass is part of the issue. I culled out all the rp brass and fired 80 rounds with the suspect wlp primers.... They all worked perfectly! Somy conclusion is that any rp brass with modern wlp primers is an unsafe combination when used with full power loads (23.5 grains of h110 under a 240grain bullet).

I'll switch to cci primers in any event, and slowly clear out my to brass as it gets old.

edfardos

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I confirmed that rp brass is part of the issue. I culled out all the rp brass and fired 80 rounds with the suspect wlp primers.... They all worked perfectly! Somy conclusion is that any rp brass with modern wlp primers is an unsafe combination when used with full power loads (23.5 grains of h110 under a 240grain bullet).

I'll switch to cci primers in any event, and slowly clear out my to brass as it gets old.

edfardos

Thanks for all the info and suggestions on correcting the problem. :shock: :shock:

...Jimbo

 

[Bucks Owin]

Personally, I would not load the .45LC to +P levels in a RP case. Neither does John Linebaugh. I'd keep the WLPs and load the RP brass to SAAMI levels ...(or toss 'em!) I have nothing but the highest praise for WW components. I can't say the same for "big green" and it seems EVERY MONTH there is a recall of some sort from Remington in the gun rags...(Sometimes more than one!) As I see it, when it comes to QC, Win and Rem aren't even in the same league anymore...

JMO in 45 years of handloading...

 

[WESHOOT2]

I solve this issue this way: I use CCI300, CCI350, or Federal Large Pistol Magnum primers (when indicated), and use WLP for certain 45 ACP loads.

 

[Gunleather]

I just had this problem this weekend. First stage of the state championship SASS match 3rd pistol round fail to fire. I switched to my last box of 100 w/ CCI primers no problems the rest of the day. Day 2 of the match I had no choice but to use the ammo loaded with Winchester large pistol (45 Long Colt) primers. It happened 2 more times through out the day. Of course a fail to fire counts as a miss and adds 5 seconds to the raw time. Now I'm not to sure what I'm going to do with the other 500 rounds of 45 Long colt & the 800 rounds of 45 ACP I have loaded. I guess next time I can't find CCI or Federal primers I'll just do without.

 

[anachronism]

You do understand this is a two year old thread? Have you checked to make certain your primers are fully seated? This is the most common cause of misfires, followed distantly by tumbling media in flash holes. The easy way to tell is to try firing the cartridge a second time. If it fires, you'll want to re-examine your case priming procedures. I have never had an issue with Winchester primers myself, and I've used plenty of them over the years.

 

[Chief 101]

a question for Gunleather...not meant to be critical of you or your reloading practices as I remember doing the same procedure for a match in 1978. Why would you load bulk ammo that had components in it that you had not tested? Like I said I learned my lesson, tho, when I load bulk ammo it usually will only be 200 rounds or less.
.

 

[Gunleather]

Yes I realize this is an old thread but when I did a google search on "Winchester primer problems" I got a huge list of hits. Rugers are the only hand guns in my safe (Blackhawk, Vaquero, SP101 & SR1911) so I thought I post here. Yes I checked my primer seat, I do that when I'm re-loading. I also do a primer check when I load my Vaquero's.

I did a bulk load because after months of not being able to find primers or lead I jumped on the chance to get all the loading for the summer season as soon as I could. I bought 2 bricks of primers the first chance I got. Ammo supplies are extremely hard to come by right now so you take what you get some times. I've been loading sense I was 14 and this is the first time I've ever used Win primers, it won't happen again.

 

[Chief 101]

I have used Winchester primers and still have some, never had or heard of a problem...if I ever had a problem it was with CCI. The pistol primers were more difficult to ignite wtih a tuned revolver so I passed on them. This bizarre hoarding of reloading components has altered a lot of our precautions I guess, use what you can find. good luck

 

[Clovishound]

Well, I had problems with Winchester primers last year when I first started reloading. Had a lot of failure to fire. Many, but not all, would fire when cycled a second time. Checked primer seating on the next batch, and still had problems. All were primed on a buddy's hand primer and failed in both his and my 9mm weapon. Switched to CCI and Federal primers and have not had a single failure since.

Not 100% sure it was the primers, but I have sworn off Winchesters. If I were out and Winchesters were available, I would try them again, but would be keeping a close eye on them.