Our Wednesday night service....

[Bob Wright]

We had a guestspeaker at our church last night. He is the pastor of that church on China that was raided a few weeks ago. He was questioned for thirteen hours, offered preprinted statements for him to sign admitting guilt to various charges. He refused each. His main fear was that he would be kept confined until his visa espired, at whch time he would be either kicked out of the country or sent to prison as an illegal alien. However he was released two days prior to the expiration dated. So they are out of the country for now, but will be able to renew his visa.
Interesting note: Both he and his brother asked that we not post theirr appearance on Facebook or Youtube as there are informants that monitor such webcasts and report them back to the Chinese Religious Bureau.

My pastor, introducing him, commented he and his brother are twind, born four years apart. They resemble each other that much!

As I understand it, the raid was by the Chinese Religious Bureau, not the local of federal police.

Bob Wright

 

[4896worker]

Bob I’m always amazed at the courage of Christian in places like China and the Middle East. Areas where they take their life in hand for expressing their faith.
I’m thankful that for now we can practice our faith here

 

[Jeepnik]

This will probably raise some hackles.

Their country, their rules. Regardless of your nationality when in someone else's country you are subject to their rules. If you run afoul of those rules you should be on your own. The US government should not raise a finger, or spend a penny to help.

Many here condemned the actions resulting in the freeing of a sports star on drug charges. But most of the same ones will condemn the arrest of a missionary.

Having lived in a country that was basically a semi benevolent dictatorship I quickly learned "their country, their rules". If you break their rules expect their punishment and quit whining about it.

Many years ago a tourist tried to smuggle drugs out of Turkey. Got caught and was given a severe sentence by our standards. Prison conditions could be described as savage.

The US government protested. Why? Their country, their rules.

By the way, the drug smuggler escaped by killing a guard. If that happened here we would expect the escapee to be returned to face prosecution. The US government refused because he would likely be executed.

The return should have been automatic. Their country, their rules.

 

[eveled]

You won’t ever get me to leave this country.

 

[Bob Wright]

This will probably raise some hackles.

Their country, their rules. Regardless of your nationality when in someone else's country you are subject to their rules. If you run afoul of those rules you should be on your own. The US government should not raise a finger, or spend a penny to help.

Many here condemned the actions resulting in the freeing of a sports star on drug charges. But most of the same ones will condemn the arrest of a missionary.

Having lived in a country that was basically a semi benevolent dictatorship I quickly learned "their country, their rules". If you break their rules expect their punishment and quit whining about it.

Many years ago a tourist tried to smuggle drugs out of Turkey. Got caught and was given a severe sentence by our standards. Prison conditions could be described as savage.

The US government protested. Why? Their country, their rules.

By the way, the drug smuggler escaped by killing a guard. If that happened here we would expect the escapee to be returned to face prosecution. The US government refused because he would likely be executed.

The return should have been automatic. Their country, their rules.

The Scriptures do say, "Man ought to obey God's laws rather than man's."

And, you're saying we ought to be living like the Indian tribes who were here?

Bob Wright

 

[Fox Mike]

The Scriptures do say, "Man ought to obey God's laws rather than man's."

And, you're saying we ought to be living like the Indian tribes who were here?

Bob Wright

They were doing OK till we came along and tried to "civilize" them. They were living and following their Gods directions. Many today should follow their example.

 

[gnappi]

I've traveled a lot, and saying "their country, their rules" is very, VERY sound advice.

Once I rented a car and some foreign nationals were passengers and I was stopped by a police officer. As I stopped I asked my passengers what I did wrong, they said nothing he wanted a bribe. One fellow got out of the car and discretely handed the officer a bill, got back in the car and said we could leave.

The discussion from there was unreal. The guy who bribed the cop told me...

It's a BAD idea for an alien (me) to try to bribe a cop, even though I was in a western friendly country they LOVE to toss westerners in jail, but said it was common for locals to bribe officials.

However I still loved traveling and Mark Twain was known to say...

"Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry, and narrow-mindedness" Pretty well sums up my opinion of traveling BUT EVERYONE SHOULD read the following article to get a glimpse where OUR laws fall short.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caning_of_Michael_Fay

 

[Jeepnik]

Bob, I respect all who feel the need to do missionary work. But expecting to be free from both persecution and prosecution in countries with a history of both is naive.

Expecting our government to intercede is, frankly, a bit foolish. And our government should not interfere with the processes of another country. Countries are called sovereign states and just as we would object to outsiders interfering with our sovereignty we must do the same for others.

Like I stated, this will raise some hackles. But seeing how a dictatorship operates, even one that was extremely benevolent to US servicemen opens one's eyes

Also, seeing the actions of American tourists who thought themselves above both the laws of the country and civility further enforced my understanding.

Go where you will, but accept you have no special status because you are a US citizen.

 

[Bob Wright]

They were doing OK till we came along and tried to "civilize" them. They were living and following their Gods directions. Many today should follow their example.

You are advocating that we should live like savages?

Bob Wright

 

[Bob Wright]

"We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creaotr with certain unalienable rights......."

Humanity dictates that wrongs against a people be identified and spoken out against and even action taken to corect that. Otherwise aparthied, slavery, even the Holocast, were right within a country's borders.

Bob Wright

 

[Watertender]

You are advocating that we should live like savages?

Bob Wright

Bob I don't think that people are advocating living like savages so much as they are saying that you have to be aware of where you are.

I have a friend who regularly talks to a Christian family in China. They have to secretly practice their faith and are in fear of persecution. We pray for them but we know they may suffer because of the government stand on their religion.

 

[gnappi]

There's a large difference between practicing religion and proselytizing. China and other countries in the middle east are not tolerant of proselytizing (trying to convert people) who are not Christians.

 

[MaxMan]

You are advocating that we should live like savages?

Bob Wright

In India the influence of the British and their Christan based beliefs largely (I know they did a lot wrong too) stopped Sati and the sacrifice of children in the Ganges.

 

[MaxMan]

I think the disagreement in this thread is between a Christian world view and a secular world view. The benefits of Christianity are so intrenched in our society that people don't even realize where they came from, even though they may be Atheist or whatever they still benefit. I don't think missionaries expect to be free from persecution but when it happens is is very difficult for them if they survive.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Speaking of bribes.
When I first went to Jakarta in 1985, I stopped in our Singapore office to get a Indonesian Visa. I was told to put $10.00-20.00 in my passport, that would allow me to get thru customs without a hassle. When I was going thru customs on my way out of Jakarta the Customs guy found a problem with my papers, which was BS, and told me I could not leave the country. Well after I gave him $20.00 all of the problems went away.

In the past when you entered Nigeria you were required to exchange $100.00 into Nigerian dollars. Since no bank would exchange Nigerian dollars for U.S. that meant you had to spend the Nigerian dollars in country, and the Government got U.S. dollars.

I have been in quite a few Sh!t Hole Countries on work assignments including China.
The last thing, for whatever reason you want to do is to try and change their way of life or break their rules. There are a lot of countries that make life hard on their population. Don't be part of it, going to their jail isn't worth it. IMHO

I was told by those that knew. If you get in trouble or things go bad, go to the British Embassy do not waste your time at the U.S. Embassy.

 

[Fox Mike]

You are advocating that we should live like savages?

Bob Wright

Were they 'savages' or perceived by the 'white man' as savages? Their lifestyle was different from the European perception of how one should live; but that's only an opinion. Being different is not a stigma. Incorrect perception is the problem.

 

[JackBull]

Bob I'm always amazed at the courage of Christian in places like China and the Middle East. Areas where they take their life in hand for expressing their faith.
I'm thankful that for now we can practice our faith here

Dont forget Canada is also an oppressor of religious freedom:

https://www.foxnews.com/world/canad...vid-protocols-to-face-final-trial-crazy-stuff

A Canadian pastor is facing his final trial after three years of repeated fines, arrests and imprisonment for keeping his church open during the COVID-19 pandemic.

Artur Pawlowski, pastor of the Cave of Adullam congregation in Calgary, said he is accused of causing $400 million worth of damages for officiating a church service during the trucker blockade at the U.S.-Canada border last year.

"This is the final culmination of over 40 tickets for the COVID tyranny, the house arrest, the prison, all of that stuff," Pawlowski told Fox News Digital ahead of his trial, set to begin Thursday, Feb. 2, in Lethbridge, Alberta.

 

[Bob Wright]

Were they 'savages' or perceived by the 'white man' as savages? Their lifestyle was different from the European perception of how one should live; but that's only an opinion. Being different is not a stigma. Incorrect perception is the problem.

Any culture that embraces human sacrifice, drinking blood of slain animals, eating the organs of human victims is savage living, no matter which way one looks at it.

The mark of civilization is the constant striving to improve life of fellow man. The idea of the "Noble Redman" is purely a myth. The civilized society is responsible for the building of orphanages to provide for orphans, care homes for the elderly and/or disabled, hospitals for the sick or injured. Compassion for those less fortunate. Recently, teams left Memphis, and other cities, to help those who have lost so much to the recent hurricanes, these volunters whose desire is to help those so afflicted. Food, water, and technical expertise has been sent to foreign nations suffering from poverty or the ravages of war.

Organizations have been formed to raise money to find a cure for diseases such as Tuberlosis, cancer, polio, heart disease, blindness and more. St. Jude Hospital here in Memphis, The Shrine Hospitals, Le Bonher are examples of charity work.

We, as civilized folk, have not perfected our lifestyle, but we are miles ahead of whatever is in second place. While you may prefer to sit in front of your tipi on a buffalo robe, I'll kick back in my recliner.

Bob Wright

 

[gnappi]

"Organizations have been formed to raise money to find a cure for diseases such as Tuberlosis, cancer, polio, heart disease, blindness and more."

Yes and the movers and shakers there have made themselves filthy rich, so noble of them to be on TV begging to get more support for them.

 

[Ride1949]

A little thread drift here. All this talk of savages brought an old tune to mind. It's long, but an interesting ballad. Maybe a little history lesson for some too.

 

[KIR]

Hey, China is o.k. Just ask DJT. That's where he gets all his "Made in America" bibles from!

 

[peachhead]

Hey, China is o.k. Just ask DJT. That's where he gets all his "Made in America" bibles from!

 

[KIR]

You can read??? One point for you!

 

[Fox Mike]

Human sacrifice? Bob, I do believe you can find that in the Bible too. At least being ready to. I assume that you don't eat any meat, fish, or fowl as they all have blood. You may not drink it but you do consume it. You have no idea what the human race did prior to written history.

 

[JackBull]

Hey, China is o.k. Just ask DJT. That's where he gets all his "Made in America" bibles from!

You do realize that most Bibles are printed in China now right?

https://www.christianitytoday.com/2014/10/bible-made-in-china/

"Chances are good that your favorite Bible was printed in China. The overwhelming majority of Bibles sold at Christian bookstores or Barnes & Noble were printed there, said Mark Bertrand of Bible Design Blog. And more publishers are joining in."

 

[Redington Slim]

When the Lord Jesus calls you to minister and preach His Word, there is no dictator in the world that will shut you up. Even if it means death.

" For since I spake, I cried out, I cried violence and spoil; because the word of the LORD was made a reproach unto me, and a derision, daily.

Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his word was in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.

For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him.

But the LORD is with me as a mighty terrible one: therefore my persecutors shall stumble, and they shall not prevail: they shall be greatly ashamed; for they shall not prosper: their everlasting confusion shall never be forgotten.

Jeremiah 20:8-10