Old Model Unconverted Blackhawk Carry Up Problem

[K1500]

I have an all stock old model made in 1972 chambered in .357 magnum. I have what I would call a carry up problem (I am not sure I am using the right term as that is a S&W term).

When cocked normally, the cylinder rotates and locks into place just fine, even when placing slight drag on the cylinder. However, if the revolver is put in half cock and the cylinder is spun as if loading, it can land at a certain spot where the pawl fails to pickup the cylinder and revolve the cylinder to fully locked when the hammer is fully cocked. This leads to a fully cocked revolver with the chamber not aligned with the barrel. I can duplicate the condition by staging the cylinder at the appropriate spot, and it happens on all 6 chambers.

When this happens, the cylinder is close to locking if it would revolve clockwise (viewing from the rear) but I believe the pawl prevents it from revolving that way. It will lock if it is revolved counter clockwise.

What do you think is wrong with the gun? I am guessing a worn pawl, as I see some wear on the nose. It acts as if the pawl fails to pick up the cylinder when it is at that one, specific orientation. If this is it, how difficult is it to fit a new pawl. I would rather not send it to Ruger as I prefer it to be unconverted. Thanks for the help.

 

[NitroAcres]

Weak Pawl Spring??

 

[K1500]

The pawl protrudes out nicely when the hammer is cocked, but I don't really know how to test that. I did flush the action out with Rem Oil to see if there was debris in the action. The problem persisted. I suppose if I replace the pawl I should do the pawl spring and plunger as cheap insurance. Any more ideas?

 

[rugerguy]

is the pawl spring and plunger in the "correct" way? the spring NOT bent , binding.............
then its a question of the pawl itself if the pressure is "right" proper and consistent, any chips or wear on the tips of the pawls "tips",,,,same goes for the back of the cylinder, the ratchets "clean" no burrs or chips or wear.................
are these the original parts, not a replacement set bought secondary?? 8) :roll: :wink:

 

[K1500]

The ratchet on the back of the cylinder looks clean. Pawl wear is present. I have owned the gun since the late 80's and have not replaced any parts. I am assuming the parts are stock. I have never opened the gun up. Given that it just started and it happens on all 6 chambers, I am thinking pawl wear is the issue, but I don't have any experience working on revolvers.

 

[K1500]

In looking closer, I believe it is likely some fairly heavy wear on the pawl that is causing the issue. I ordered a pawl and pawl spring and plunger. Any tips or tricks on how to install/what to watch out for when I get them? Thanks.

 

[Hondo44]

My first advice is never buy parts until the problem is diagnosed.

A worn part doesn't usually stop working all of a sudden, broken parts do.
The pawl has the teeth on it. The bottom tooth is the one that completes the carry-up (correct term).
Check the bottom tooth.

Remove cyl, cock the hammer. The pawl should move forward even farther when you pull the hammer farther back than the cock notch. Push it in by hand to check for even spring tension.

With cyl out, as you cycle the hammer thru it's full range of travel, watch the cyl stop bolt. Does it snap back up with authority at the end of the hammer cycle just as the hammer reached full cock?

Take apart and check for broken parts especially the pin in the bottom of the hammer for sticking or bent pin. The pin operates the cyl stop bolt and is the most common problem on old models. In fact, just about the only problem we find on OMs.

This may help if you've never taken apart an OM:

Ruger doesn't have an OM single action video; click the link below, scroll down on the right side of this video window, and click on "Tech Tips-Old Army Disassembly" which has the same lock work:
https://ruger.com/videos.html?vid=131271707&cat=3769277

 

[K1500]

Thank you for your detailed post, I really appreciate it. I will try to address your points.

I had read that the top tooth picks the cylinder up and hands it off to the bottom tooth. They both have wear but the top has more wear. I may be able to post a pic tonight. Compared to a new model (not sure if they use the same pawl shape) I would say it is substantially worn, with the right side of the tooth rounded off. It almost looks like pictures of the 'free spin pawl' modification, but. Know that has not been done to the gun. It is all wear.

The pawl moves forward and moves past the cock notch when the hammer is pulled past full cock, and has even spring tension.

The cylinder stop notch snaps up with authority, but I believe it snaps up on the third click of the hammer, which is quite a bit before full cock. Is this a problem?

I have not taken it apart yet. I will when the parts get here in case I need to replace them.

I have another theory. I don't know how much of the tooth on the pawl engages the ratchet. I would assume by looking at it that perhaps the pawl engagement decreases the closer to full lock the cylinder is. If the right edge of the pawl is worn, as the cylinder approaches lock, the left side of the pawl tooth is disengaging the ratchet (as it spins away from the pawl). Perhaps the right side of the pawl is worn enough that it doesn't do the job if the cylinder is nearly locked? This all may be wrong, as I just don't have a good idea of how much of the tooth engages the ratchet and how that engagement changes as then cylinder rotates.

Thanks again to all who have (and continue) to help. It is appreciated.

 

[Hondo44]

The rounded corner on the top right side of the top tooth of the pawl is proper, not wear. All old models will have this corner 'de-horned' at the factory for correct and smooth operation.

This extra fitting step has been deleted from the current revolvers and is a very common reason for New Models not working correctly, right out of the box. Can't tell you how many cocking problems I've cured by de-horning that corner of the pawl on new guns. And yes, if the corner is removed excessively the cyl will free spin (spin in reverse) with hammer at half cock.

Remember, the top tooth is no longer in contact with the cyl for final carry up, only the 2nd (lower) tooth.

The entire front edge of the pawl contacts the ratchet tooth on the cyl for the first instant of cyl movement when the ratchet tooth is at the 9:00 o'clock position and horizontal. Immediately as the cyl begins to turn and the tooth is no longer horizontal, all the contact transfers to the upper right corner of the top pawl tooth. That's why a sharp corner will dig into the ratchet tooth (especially on stainless guns) and cause hard cocking or hammer lock-up, and also excessive wear of the ratchet teeth.

 

[K1500]

https://flic.kr/p/JQMh2V

Hopefully this pic works. Please let me know if it does not show up.

 

[Hondo44]

The picture showed up. But the pawl looks fine!

 

[K1500]

I am assuming that the behavior I describe above is not normal. I certainly don't remember the revolver doing it before, but maybe it never lands in just the right spot. I am pretty certain it just started.

In any event, I guess it's time to take it apart. I'll wait until the parts get here just in case I need a pawl spring or plunger or something. I'm only out $12.35 for the pawl, pawl spring, and plunger, so it's no big loss if they turn out to be unneeded. I will keep everyone updated. Thanks for all the guidance.

 

[NitroAcres]

Spare parts kits are always good to have...

 

[K1500]

Ok, I had a chance to 'play' with it a bit more. The gun *will* come to full cock before the cylinder locks. It has to be cocked very slowly, as any travel of the hammer past full cock will rotate the cylinder enough to lock.

It feels like the handoff from the top pawl tooth to the bottom pawl tooth has a point where the the cylinder is free and not in contact with either pawl. Shortly after the cylinder stop snaps up on the third click, the cylinder slightly jumps forward and is not in contact with the pawl (nor is it locked). The pawl then picks up the cylinder again just before full cock. I'm not sure if any of this is normal , as I haven't paid close enough attention to the gun to tell when it was working right, but there is a distinct jump or shove, which I believe coincides with the top pawl disengaging the ratchet after the third click.

I believe some smith revolvers achieve full cock before lock when operated slowly. In the back of my mind I seem to remember a discussion about peening either the hand or the ratchet in a smith to fix the problem. I will see what the new parts look like compared to the existing part. I should get them next week.

 

[PriseDeFer]

"It feels like the handoff from the top pawl tooth to the bottom pawl tooth has a point where the the cylinder is free and not in contact with either pawl. Shortly after the cylinder stop snaps up on the third click, the cylinder slightly jumps forward and is not in contact with the pawl (nor is it locked). The pawl then picks up the cylinder again just before full cock."

Are you operating the gun very slowly or at "normal" speed?

 

[K1500]

I am working it very slowly. All feels fine when worked normally. I don't remember it feeling this way before, and I have had the gun since the late 80's.

I got the pawl today (used out of an old model .357. It looks quite a bit less worn than mine. When I get a chance, I will take it apart and see what's going on. If I see no other damage, I will swap in the pawl and see if it helps.

My plan is to clean the 'guts' with Hoppes #9 and lightly lube with CLP. Is there anything in there that would be better off with some super lube grease?

 

[K1500]

Ok, I gave it a try. Everything went together but the gun would not come to full cock. If the hammer was down, the gun wouldn't even come to the safety notch. The new pawl has longer 'hooks' by about 0.045" to 0.050". Is it possible this is a pawl for another caliber? I would assume they are all the same within a given frame size (this was sold to me as a .357 old model pawl).

How much fitting is typically necessary on the pawl? Removing 0.045" is certainly doable, but it is quite a bit of material. The part was cheap and I don't mind to give it a try. If anyone has any advice on how to proceed, I'll take it.

 

[K1500]

Hondo44,

You said "Take apart and check for broken parts especially the pin in the bottom of the hammer for sticking or bent pin. The pin operates the cyl stop bolt and is the most common problem on old models. In fact, just about the only problem we find on OMs."

Are you referring to the spring loaded hammer plunger? Also, I assume in fitting the paw I would start with the top tooth first, right?

 

[Hondo44]

Yes, the spring loaded hammer plunger. But with you further clarification of the problem, I don't suspect it any longer but still inspect once your inside the action.

I would install the pawl (hand) just as it is and see how it works.

If the hammer won't cock, the top step is too long and tries to turn the cyl before the cyl stop clears the notch.

If it solves your initial problem, the 2nd step is long enough, but:
If the cyl locks before the hammer cocks, it's a bit too long.

 

[K1500]

Thanks for the advice, that is exactaly what the new pawl is doing. I will work on the pawl and go slow.