Old Model flattops...beginning and end

[Heliman]

I only own 2 Old Model 357 Flattops. One is a Type 1 and the other a Type 4. I was looking through Chad's reference guide and discovered the Type 4 SN is higher than the highest number reported. Serial numbers 2234 and 42519 is quite a spread and kinda shows the beginning and end of the Old Flattop production...... Just a curiousity. :D

Dave :wink:

 

[flatgate]

Nice ol' Rugers, Dave! I've got a couple of "late issue" .44 Flattops. The most obvious changes are the XR3-RED grip frames. One's pretty nice and one's a "shooter grade" but the S/N's are kinda neat...... :roll:

flatgate

PS I believe the higher numbered example has the wrong grip medallions. They shouldn't have
the skinny neck style.

 

[mike722]

neat 357s!!

FG, the skinny neck is correct for that vintage..those thicker-necks came along around '65, IIRC...

 

[rugerguy]

I think it makes for a "nice SET", the first & the last,hhhmmmm even a display theme...........

 

[contender]

Careful Dan,,, you'll have RR thinking and buying,,,!

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Thanks for sharing, Dave.

PM sent.

:mrgreen:

 

[tommygun]

FYI, John Dougan list the last flat-top as 42689. 42691 was first protected sight gun.

 

[Heliman]

FYI, John Dougan list the last flat-top as 42689. 42691 was first protected sight gun.

I think that one has the XR3-Red grip frame as opposed to the XR3 grip frame.....don't know the number of the last XR3 gun..........yet :D I'm sure someone will enlighten us.......

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Last known XR3 Flattop is 42686, shipped 10/62 . . . and we know who has it.

;)

 

[tommygun]

You think 42689 is XR3-red?

 

[tommygun]

This is interesting. Dougan lists serial number range for type 4's as 29000 to 42689. The type 5 is a flat-top with XR3-red frame. He mentions that you rarely see them before 42400. I'm confused!

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Don't know about 42689, other than it is apparently the last Flattop built. 42690 was apparently not built.

Bob's List shows three XR3RED guns before 42690, and we know one of those was "retrofitted". It's totally possible there are many earlier XR3RED guns, but it's very unlikely many of them were original.

RENE acknowledges the XR3RED Flattops, but does not assign them a "Type 5" designation, nor does Bob's List.

Similarly, it's quite possible there are XR3 "protected sight" guns, but these could have been original if some of the older grip frames found their way to the assembly room.

Ya just never know.

And with Ruger, "never say never (or always)".

;)

 

[flatgate]

FWIW, I certainly believe that at least "a few" .44 cal. Flattops were assembled with the "NEW" design, XR3-RED grip frame. Of course some "screwdriver" variations exist, esp. after a few shots of "full power ammo" with the XR-3 grip................

Me? I cannot shoot a .44 mag. with XR-3 grips. I MUST change them over to something else....

Steel XR3-RED and wide and smooth trigger.

flatgate

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I've likely missed it, but is there a data base similar to Bob's List that addresses the .44 Flattops in similar depth? We're getting close to 3000 guns there.

RENE acknowleged here . . . just wondering if anybody is following the .44's indpendently.

Probably should be in a separate thread so as not to corrupt this one.

:)

 

[tommygun]

So Ale, 42686 is an XR3 fattop? As you probably know Dougan's book, The Vintage Years 1948-1973 lists a variation 5 that is an XR3- RED Flattop. The one that I am aware of is serial number 42658. Begs the question! Why would the factory have installed the newer frame if it were not the end of the XR3 frames. Like many Ruger isues, just does not make logical sense. It is no wonder it is difficult to know what was original and what was tinkered with.

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Will possibly depend on when those last Flattop 357s were actually asembled and shipped. If late, then the possibility of having an XR3RED frame is reasonable. What is also, perhaps greatly reasonable, is that a buyer owner decided he did not enjoy the brutality of the fit on the original XR3 frame and his bruised index and middle fingers' knuckles..Thus a grip frame change..........Lots of stuff happens over a 50 year period and as we note, RugerGuy and yours truely, originality is only one (the next) owner away.......I can assure TommyGun that the three digit earred model 357 he received from me, was never monkeyed with...........But, that is an early earred model and not a last Flattop 357.........Other theories abound, so who is next to the pulpit? MIKE

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Yes, 42658 is on Bob's List, reported as having an XR3RED grip frame.

The point is, who can say that the gun originally shipped with that grip arrangement?

I'm not claiming one way or the other here. We just record what we see or are told by those we assume aren't fibbing to us.

I don't believe anybody knows for sure when the first XR3RED frame and grip panels showed up at the assembly area. That's why I said above it's totally possible for there to be XR3RED Flattops -- just as there may be XR3 "protected sight" guns -- that came straight from The Factory . . . but we'll likely never be able to document these one way or another. I'm comfortable with the fact that Mr. Ruger likely didn't give a darn which type grip frames were installed as long al they all got mounted and sold.

It's awfully easy to overthink some of this stuff. I don't have the answers to some of these questions, and I'm actually pretty sure we'll never know all the answers.

And never say never . . .

;)

 

[Heliman]

All I know is there are 40,285 guns between my Type 1 and Type 4........still quite a spread for these early and late Flattops....... Be interesting to see who has the biggest spread 8), and I'm not talkin' butt size. :shock: ......kinda the opposite of consecutive serial numbers..... :D

Dave :wink:

 

[Ellwood]

Wow!!! those are SO SWEET!!

 

[flattop44]

Interesting thread. I agree with Flatgate, I do believe some .44 Flattops as well as some .357 Flattops were fitted with XR3-RED grip frames toward the end of Flattop production. I have probably seen and handled 8 - 10 in all my years. As we all know, Bill Ruger did not throw anything away and when engineering/parts changes were made I believe the new and old were mixed and overlapped. The small serial numbered Supers with a mixture of Micro sight, steel ERH, Alloy sight, alloy ERH during the transition is a perfect example. Never a certain exact time this part was ended and that was part began....just like serial numbers are not done in sequence. While there is normally no way to validate a particular grip frame from the factory I have seen a few and bought some that I really felt was "right". Two main factors that help validate in my mind that they certainly can be correct is the later ship date and the uniform graying color of the anodizing on the grip frame....then just the look of the gun in general. At least every one that I felt was "right" met those standards.

I bought a boxed .44 FT with XR3-RED from an elderly man at a small gun show who said he bought it new. I asked him if he had ever done anything to it, changed anything, etc., nope, that was just the way it came....he never mentioned anything about the GF. I believe him, said he bought it in 1963, he had no reason to lie and sold me the gun for only about $400. Turns out that it lettered as being shipped June 1963 and of course it had that uniform graying GF. I also own #42658, the .357 FT with XR3-RED discussed here and it is the only one that I have ever seen that I felt was correct as soon as I picked it up. It meets the characteristics I mentioned above, shipped November 1962 and has the uniform gray anodizing, so I do feel that it is original and correct....can I prove it from the factory, no, but I like it, treasure it and really don't care much beyond that.

It is sad that folks will change things on guns but that is just a fact of life. As a collector who wants 100% original I hate it but its their gun and they can do what they want with it. Like Mike said for a comfort thing or maybe to make a buck. Its up to me to do my homework and make a decision as to a gun's validity.

All of this is just my opinion after many years of studying, chasing and handling a whole bunch of these old Rugers.....and I have had a whole lot more fun doing it!!

FT44/aka Bill

 

[Ale-8(1)]

My Single-Six convert was shipped in November of 1962, and it has developed the grey coloration on the XR3RED grip frame over the years. I know it's original because my dad's buddy was a "home dealer" and he ordered it for my Christmas present that year. It's just as it was received from Ruger, albiet with several thouand rounds down its tube.

The transitional stuff is always interesting.

:)

PS Thanks for the ship date on 42658 . . . I've updated Bob's List.

;)

 

[chet15]

The ship date is the all important factor for an XR3-RED flattop, but cannot of course be the sole determinate on how it left the factory.
XR3-RED grip frames began showing up on Single-Sixes at the very end of July 1962. Those late shipped .44 flattops (October/November 1962 and later) are also the best candidates to have been shipped with RED grip frames, or even Super Blackhawk cylinders since the .44 Blackhawk frame "cleanup" was nearly complete.
But doing research on .357 Blackhawks, I found that there was a short lapse in production between the highest known true XR3 .357's and the handful of XR3-RED flattops that are known, so ship dates with a high percentage of relative accuracy will help to confirm one way or the other.
Another point...when Ruger began advertising the new protected sight .357, these were also advertised with new XR3-RED shape grip frames. So it is mmy belief that Ruger did their best to make sure if somebody got a new protected sight flattop, it also had the new RED grip frame on it (the same reason 99.9%+ of the all blue Lightweights have round loading gates on them...because they were advertised that way). So would not surprise me if Ruger made sure most of their .357 flattop production was out of the house before assembling the new protected sight guns. This would also explain the shortage of known XR3-RED .357 flattops as compared to known .44 Flattops with RED frames.
Lastly, if somebody has an XR3-RED .357 flattop, the look of those early RED frames would also be a big factor in whether the grip frame could be original to the gun or not. Not only did the RED grip frames have an "ALCOA G" founders mark (used to at least October 1966), but the earliest XR3-RED grip frames also had a terrible anodized finish which appears very thin, and even differently colored.
Chet15

 

[tommygun]

Chet, great stuff. If you have seen Bill's 42658, it does have a very grey frame and fits all the criteria mentioned. It shipped in Nov. 1962. According to your research, when was the lapse in Blackhawk production? December 1962???????

 

[contender]

It's discussions like this that have caused MANY long hours of spirited speculations as to "who what where, how & why?" True answers will probably never be known. However,, having followed this thread,, seeing who has responded with their decades of knowledge & experience,, it is hopefull that this knowledge will be saved & recorded for future collectors to study as well. But,, as noted,, we'll most likely never have totally irreputable proof of the details we seek. We can only add our own thoughts & experience.
I think Bill says it best here;

"It is sad that folks will change things on guns but that is just a fact of life. As a collector who wants 100% original I hate it but its their gun and they can do what they want with it. Like Mike said for a comfort thing or maybe to make a buck. Its up to me to do my homework and make a decision as to a gun's validity.

All of this is just my opinion after many years of studying, chasing and handling a whole bunch of these old Rugers.....and I have had a whole lot more fun doing it!!"

JMO!

 

[tommygun]

Contender I agree! Problem is the narrow community of collectors desire / drives value/price! Supply versus demand. The supply of rare guns and the desire of a handful of collectors creates value. I have tried to to sell hard to find transition 357 blackhawks (which is what I collect) and it is hard to get what I paid for them. Couple that with the fact that it is often hard to verify authenticily and fraud frustrates me to no end. My concern and I am a newbie to this is that documention and all may not mean squat to young people who could care less. I really enjoy this but question the sanity of investing the money in these guns that when all of us old guys are gone these guns may not be worth much to our heirs. It is what it is!!!! May be openong a can of worms here eh?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Tommy, if you're gonna be a major player in Rugerdom, youre gonna win some and lose some. I'm pretty sure any of the Big Dawgs will tell you that. They got where they are by learning everything they could from "the books" as well as their ongoing communication with each other and lifelong experiences at the shows and on the 'net. There's no sure, certain way to jump in and be on top of it all right away. It's a learning game, and there are no sure things. Nobody knows it all, but there are a few who sure do know a whole bunch. Pay attention. I try to, even though I'm not a "player" in the Big Game.

Hang in there. It's all fun, even if it isn't all profitable.

:) :) :)

 

[rugerguy]

you got it Tommy, as you noted and found out at the OGCA and again recently we have been seeing flatop 357 guns, some boxed and some not, sitting on tables and NOT selling.seen two at show recently that sold for under $500 ( I know a guy from the forum here ,bought the one at Medina for $475 and a NICE gun..we've had one for another guy here , 4 digit 44 flatop and it sold for $750..........NEW models are selling for MORE......................
So Dave your "spread" from the early one and the later type 4 is a good point, and a nice try,and as long as YOU are happy with this fact, thats what makes collecting just what it is, the values are just very subjective and whatever the market brings/bears :wink:
you guys don't get out the vote, it may not matter anyway :roll:

 

[Heliman]

Wow, this thread has really morphed into something unplanned......but fun! Let's face it, I am not a true "collector". I DO have collectible guns, but my interest is to have representative samples of desrirable guns, not just Rugers.

I have had a 4 digit Type 1 flattop for a long time and opportunity presented itself on the Type 4 and I bought it. The serial number deal didn't dawn on me until I looked it up in Chad's refence guide. I thought it to be interesting and posted here.

I have learned a lot just by following this thread and am happy that my curiosity spawned a meaningful discussion. Thanks to all you knowledgeable folks for the schooling.........

Dave

 

[radicalrod]

Well it appears it is a GOOD TIME to BUY :lol: :lol: :lol: then cost average out the ones you paid a little TOO MUCH for :roll: :roll: :roll:

TommyG, all collectors have the same thoughts.....the problem is that as a serious collector you are willing to spend the $$$ it takes to get what you desire.....information is a double edged sword....in the beginning we are all happy to find a nice example of each caliber, then we find out they make 3 barrel lengths :lol: , then a little more research tells us they have different ejector rod housings :lol: and on and on for the RUGER MANIAC trapped inside us......for some of us it gets a little out of control :shock: :shock: :shock: there was a time I might have resembled that statement but thanks to the current economics I have been somewhat CURED :!: :!: :!:

Now as for the financial aspect.....I don't worry a whole lot about that as I got wiped out in the market once and figured I was happier with a safe full of guns that I can see and hold anytime I want than letting some fast talking salesmen tell me the market went down and if you just keep doing it you will get your money back..... someday.......and when I am dead and the wife sells them it won't bother me much if she doesn't make a profit on them :lol: :lol: :lol: I wouldn't want her NEW GUY to live too "HIGH ON THE HOG" :roll: :roll: :roll: we all wonder if we are doing the smart thing.....ask the guys that collected "BEENIE BABIES" or "CABBAGE PATCH KIDS" how that worked out :?: :?: :?: if we all knew what we were doing we would sell before the market crashes and buy the day before it skyrockets :shock: :shock: :shock: don't worry there are a lot of us in the same boat :wink: :wink: :wink: JMO....YMMV....RR.

 

[flatgate]

So Ale, 42686 is an XR3 flattop? Why would the factory have installed the newer frame if it were not the end of the XR3 frames? Like many Ruger isues, just does not make logical sense. It is no wonder it is difficult to know what was original and what was tinkered with.

Classic example of the "parts bin theory"...... 8) The assembler's bin of XR3-RED grip frames was getting low. He walks over to the big bins and grabs a handful of grip frames to finish out his day. Lo and behold they were XR-3's.

Just a thought........

flatgate