Old Army Loads

[Tslepebull]

Moderator this might be better in the reloading section but technically it is not reloading so here goes.

I picked up a nice blued Old Army (1973 production) at a gun show over the weekend. I have already purchased a Lee conical mould (456-220-1R) and want to develop a load with that bullet that is suitable for hunting wild hogs in the 50-120 lb range. My priorities in order are power followed by precision with economy a distant third. I have some experience with Colt and Remington replica BP revolvers but always used round ball projectiles at target pressures in defference to the brass frames.

What do the OA guru's suggest?

 

[NorEaster]

Will you be sizing the bullet down at all?
I shoot conicals out of mine for SASS loads and found that a .453-.454 bullet seat best for me. I use American Pioneer Powder FFF which loads by volume not weight. APP does not need special lube as does true black powder. Given this, I am able to use bullets lubed with standard smokeless wax lube. I do still use a wad between load and bullet though.

Those who use Triple Seven report it to be a hotter powder and you may want to consider it for your hunting load. It too loads by volume.

I arrived at my load by using the following process.
Take a dowel and slide it into the chamber of the ROA. I then made a mark on the dowel with a sharp pencil that indicated the opening of the chamber. I then subtracted 1/8" as that is where I expected the nose of my seated bullet to be. From that mark I subtracted the length of my projectile and thickness of wad. At that point a mark was made on the dowel. The space from the mark to the end of my dowel indicated the measurement for my load.
Using a Thompson Center clear plastic powder measure. I slid the top to one side and pushed the dowel into the measure to the point of my final mark. Looking at the measurement on the powder measure I was able to determine approximately how many grains it would be for a load. The I went to my set of LEE powder dippers and using it's chart compare my reading on the TC measure to that on the Lee Dipper Conversion Chart.
After selecting my dipper, I filled it with APP and poured it into the TC measure. My selected dipper full of powder matched the TC measure perfectly.
I then headed to the range and using my combination of bullets, wad and charge worked out the load best for me.

When loading, bear in mind that the depth you seat the bullet with the loading lever equals to the amount of compression you would place on the powder charge. Triple Seven and APP should not be heavily compressed.

Your mileage may vary

 

[Tslepebull]

Thanks NorEaster that gives me a place to start.

 

[lovesrugers]

I have been playing with my Old Army and 777 with various bullets for a few years now. 777 powder turns the Old Army into a powerhouse of a cap and ball revolver. Here is a brief summary of the chrony data I have accumulated over the years. For most of my loads I am now using a cci #11 magnum percussion cap. I am using 3f 777.

147 grain Round ball
35 grains 777 Average velocity: 952 fps
40 grains 777 Average velocity: 1,111 fps
45 grains 777 Average velocity: 1,193 fps

Lee 220 grain conical:456-220-1R
25 grains 777 Average velocity: 767 fps
30 grains 777 Average velocity: 919 fps
35 grains 777 Average velocity: 1,028 fps

Lee 250 grain REAL bullet
30 grains 777 Average velocity: 880 fps

As you can see the 220 grain conical with 35 grains of 777 would be the power king of the bunch. However it is not my favorite load. The reason I don't like that bullet or load is that in order to get the best accuracy from that bullet you need to ensure that you seat it as straight as possible. Up close, ie under 25 yards I don't see to many problems with accuracy with a slightly off seated bullet. At 50 yards however it creates major problems.

My favorite load and the one I would recommend for your purposes would be the Lee 25o grain REAL bullet over 30 grains of 777. They are very easy to load and they give me great accuracy out to 50 yards or more. In fact I was just out today with my Old Army shooting that exact load off hand at 50 yards. As long as I did my part the bullets hit the target every time.

Here is a video of me shooting my Old Army with the above load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQVu3d3NpxU
Jerry

 

[NorEaster]

LovesRugers, that is awesome!
TSLepebull,
Note the external cylinder loader LovesRugers has.
These are a must have if you want to seriously shoot conicals from an ROA.
I have contemplated buying one but at SASS distances it doesn't matter.
777 does kick these babies into overdrive though and in my opinion is the powder you want to base a hunting load on

 

[lovesrugers]

NorEaster brings up a good point I forgot to address.

In order to load the longer 250 grain bullet you will need some type of external cylinder loader. I just went and verified this on my Old Army and found no way to get that long of a bullet into the cylinder frame for seating with the Old Armies supplied ram rod.

The 220 grain conical will fit in just fine, but is a real pain in the butt to get started totally straight using the ram rod on the Old Army.

Oh yeah, to make my Old Army hit correctly with the heavier slugs I ended up changing out the front site to a taller one. This is easy to do on a stainless steel Old Army, but not so easy on a blued model.

Here are some pictures of the cylinder loader I am using and of the taller front site I installed.
Jerry

 

[lovesrugers]

Here is where you can get the cylinder loader I pictured above:
http://www.blackdawgecartridge.com/cgi-bin/bdstore/perlshop.cgi?ACTION=thispage&thispage=bd_cyl_loader.html&ORDER_ID=233359385
Jerry

 

[xtratoy]

Lovesrugers, Is that taller sight one you can get from Ruger? Do you have a part # for it?

 

[lovesrugers]

xtratoy, I ordered the sight from Brownells a few years ago. I don't remember which sight I went with so I went ahead and measured the one I put on. Apparently it should be this one:
http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=16751/Product/SIGHT_BLADE__FRONT__PLAIN__BLACK
The Ruger number for this sight blade is MR03611. This sight is the one that comes standard on the stainless steel Blackhawk 7.5 inch chambered in 45 Colt. Once again I thank Flatgate for helping me find and install this sight blade on my Old Army.

Jerry

 

[Boge]

TRIPLE 7???!!! OP, get some REAL blackpowder and leave the faux stuff for the In Line crowd!! Real men don't shoot faux BP subs. :lol: :wink:

 

[NorEaster]

Boge,
Real blackpowder is fun, I like it's smoke and smell more than subs; but for me subs are more readily available.
Where Tslepebull was interested in a huntng load my first thought went to Triple 7 because it is more powerful than holy black.

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven.html

 

[JNewell]

Great data. I've never tried the REAL bullet. I'll have to give it a shot!

I have been playing with my Old Army and 777 with various bullets for a few years now. 777 powder turns the Old Army into a powerhouse of a cap and ball revolver. Here is a brief summary of the chrony data I have accumulated over the years. For most of my loads I am now using a cci #11 magnum percussion cap. I am using 3f 777.

147 grain Round ball
35 grains 777 Average velocity: 952 fps
40 grains 777 Average velocity: 1,111 fps
45 grains 777 Average velocity: 1,193 fps

Lee 220 grain conical:456-220-1R
25 grains 777 Average velocity: 767 fps
30 grains 777 Average velocity: 919 fps
35 grains 777 Average velocity: 1,028 fps

Lee 250 grain REAL bullet
30 grains 777 Average velocity: 880 fps

As you can see the 220 grain conical with 35 grains of 777 would be the power king of the bunch. However it is not my favorite load. The reason I don't like that bullet or load is that in order to get the best accuracy from that bullet you need to ensure that you seat it as straight as possible. Up close, ie under 25 yards I don't see to many problems with accuracy with a slightly off seated bullet. At 50 yards however it creates major problems.

My favorite load and the one I would recommend for your purposes would be the Lee 25o grain REAL bullet over 30 grains of 777. They are very easy to load and they give me great accuracy out to 50 yards or more. In fact I was just out today with my Old Army shooting that exact load off hand at 50 yards. As long as I did my part the bullets hit the target every time.

Here is a video of me shooting my Old Army with the above load.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQVu3d3NpxU
Jerry

 

[CW4USARET]

lovesrugers

The load data that you provided is that volumetric or actual weight?

jrf

 

[don44]

A REAL bullet is very accurate.... at least for me.

 

[xtratoy]

What is the easiest way to clean the ROA. I have a 7.5" Stainless. I have heard some people say that they just remove the grips and soak in soapy water to neutralize the blackpowder fouling. What kind of soapy water to use? Then what? Rinse with water and spray WD40 inside?? How do you who shoot yours often, clean them?

 

[lovesrugers]

CW4,
The load data I provided is all volumetric.

Xtratoy, I see you are south of me a little bit.
In cleaning my Old Army I usually just remove the grips, field strip it and then place the entire gun in my kitchen sink. From there I put hot water all over and put lots of regular old dishsoap, Kirkland brand at the moment. I then use a tooth brush and scrub the frame, hammer and cylinder, basically the entire gun very well. From there I rinse the gun with very hot water and then place it on some towels to dry. At this point I will remove the nipples from the cylinder and usually give the cylinder a second trip through the hot water and dish soap cycle to clean out the nipple holes followed by some pipe cleaner. The nipples I will hand clean so I don't risk loosing them down the drain.

At this point I will usually clean the barrel, it usually isn't very dirty at all so just a pass or two with a brush and then clean patch is all it takes. Sometimes I just use a bore snake to do this. At this point I will sometimes use a can of brake cleaner and spray it into the action to remove any final carbon build up or contamination. I think brake cleaner also has a drying agent in it so it will remove any remaining water in the action.

Next I oil up the gun and reassemble.

Usually this is all it takes but I will occasionally strip the entire gun down removing the action and grip frame for a thorough cleaning. I usually know it is time to do this when I I either start getting mis fires very early on in my shooting session or when doing the brake cleaner bit I keep getting black gunk out of the action after repeated sprays.

I know this cleaning may seem to be a bit extreme to some but I figure I love this gun and Ruger isn't making it any more so I better take really good care of it.

Jerry

 

[NorEaster]

For a basic cleaning I use next to boiling hot water and simple green or dish soap. I remove the cylinder and then the nipples from the cylinder. Those along with the cylinder pin assembly go into the hot water mixture to soak.
I use a bucket or bowl that allows my ROAs to rest at an angle. I place the ROA muzzle down into the container and pour the hot water mixture into the container until just the barrel is submerged. I return to my previous parts and scrub with an old toothbrush and bore brush in the chambers. I scrub the nipples and cylinder pin assembley. Once scrubbed they are removed and set on a paper towel. The hot water evaporates quickly, so they dry quickly by just sitting there.
Back to the remainder of the ROA. I scrub the barrel and cylinder frame; but do so while holding the gun inverted. This allows me to scrub the inside of the cylinder frame without soapy water running into the inside of the gun. Cocking the hammer back and still inverted, I scrub the hammer area.
Once scrubbed and rinsed, I dry and run a patch with bore butter through the barrel. I take a Q-tip and work it into the crevices around the hammer.
I take another Q-tip covered in bore butter and swab it into the crevices in and around the hammer. The gun being warm melts the bore butter and it flows into the gun.
For a thorough cleaning I strip the whole gun down and use the above methods.

 

[MMichaelAK]

NorEaster, this is pretty much the exact same way I do mine. Saved me typing it out by allowing me to go, "DITTO".

For a basic cleaning I use next to boiling hot water and simple green or dish soap. I remove the cylinder and then the nipples from the cylinder. Those along with the cylinder pin assembly go into the hot water mixture to soak.
I use a bucket or bowl that allows my ROAs to rest at an angle. I place the ROA muzzle down into the container and pour the hot water mixture into the container until just the barrel is submerged. I return to my previous parts and scrub with an old toothbrush and bore brush in the chambers. I scrub the nipples and cylinder pin assembley. Once scrubbed they are removed and set on a paper towel. The hot water evaporates quickly, so they dry quickly by just sitting there.
Back to the remainder of the ROA. I scrub the barrel and cylinder frame; but do so while holding the gun inverted. This allows me to scrub the inside of the cylinder frame without soapy water running into the inside of the gun. Cocking the hammer back and still inverted, I scrub the hammer area.
Once scrubbed and rinsed, I dry and run a patch with bore butter through the barrel. I take a Q-tip and work it into the crevices around the hammer.
I take another Q-tip covered in bore butter and swab it into the crevices in and around the hammer. The gun being warm melts the bore butter and it flows into the gun.
For a thorough cleaning I strip the whole gun down and use the above methods.

 

[ClemBert]

lovesrugers,

How is it that you are able to get 45 grains of 777 into your factory cylinder? Did you have it reamed deeper?

 

[lovesrugers]

Clembet, I haven't had the cylinder reamed deeper, but I am the second owner of this gun. I picked it up back in the early 90's so I don't know if cylinder reaming was in at that time or not.

In fitting 45 grains you do have to compress the powder a bit more than I think Hodgdon really recommends with 777. Also I don't use any wad under my bullets, I just lube over the top of the cylinder. If I remember right the bullet just barely fits...

Jerry

 

[Boge]

Boge,
Real blackpowder is fun, I like it's smoke and smell more than subs; but for me subs are more readily available.
Where Tslepebull was interested in a huntng load my first thought went to Triple 7 because it is more powerful than holy black.

http://www.hodgdon.com/tripleseven.html

No matter what state you live in you can order 5 lbs. of real BP and have it delivered to your door via UPS legally. Believe me, you do not need the extra "oomph" of Triple 7. 35 gr. of FFFg BP will shoot clear through a deer with a conical. :wink:

http://www.powderinc.com/

 

[NorEaster]

Boge,
I don't get much time to do that much shooting to justify ordering 5,10,25 or 50lb lots of it. For the amount of shooting I get to do a pound of APP fills my needs. Such is life for me at this point of the journey.

 

[ClemBert]

Clembet, I haven't had the cylinder reamed deeper, but I am the second owner of this gun. I picked it up back in the early 90's so I don't know if cylinder reaming was in at that time or not.

In fitting 45 grains you do have to compress the powder a bit more than I think Hodgdon really recommends with 777. Also I don't use any wad under my bullets, I just lube over the top of the cylinder. If I remember right the bullet just barely fits...

Jerry

I'm thinking the first owner must have bored the chambers deeper, which some folks do, in order to get an extra 5-7 grains in there. It's common that 40-41 grains to go into an unmodified ROA but with good compression.

BTW, you are right about compression of 777. Hodgdon does not recommend compression at all as it causes the powder to burn inconsistently and effects accuracy. The ball should just barely push up against the powder...may 1/16".

 

[JNewell]

Aww heck, I figgered he was loadin' from the muzzle!

 

[lovesrugers]

Clembert, Since you brought it up I just had to double check and make sure my 45 grain measurement was correct. I used two different volumetric measures to verify that I am putting in 45 grains of 777 by volume. I than seated the ball onto the charge. Since I don't use this load very often I was surprised at how easy it was to seat the ball and it seemed like I really didn't use a lot of compression on the powder. To verify this I pulled out my caliper and did some measurements. From the top of the cylinder to the top of the settled powder charge I got a rough measurement of .212 inches. With the ball seated I get a measurement of .055 inches from the face of the cylinder to the top of the ball. Doing some quick math shows that I am compressing the powder about .3 inch or just over a 1/4 inch. This may sound like a bunch but I don't think it is as bad as it seems due to the round ball allowing the powder to move partially up the sides of the ball. With my flat based conicals this is not possible and the seating force/compression force is much greater the deeper I try to seat them compared to the round balls. Of course this is all relative to me since I try to seat all my projectiles to the same felt level of compression no matter what type of bullet I am using. Here is a picture I snapped of my cylinder loaded with a Speer .457 round ball over 45 grains 777 and two cylinders full of the same charge. Oh yeah I still have no idea if my gun was bored deeper or not, but I swear I have seen others mentioning that they can fit 45 grains of powder into their Old Army with no problems. If it makes any difference I just checked and my gun was made/shipped in 1985. I acquired the gun roughly nine or so years later so maybe someone fiddled with it, no idea.
Jerry

 

[lovesrugers]

Wow I just got curious on how much powder the round balls would allow up the sides compared to a flat based bullet. I did some quick math to figure out the volume of the area between the cylinder wall and the radius of the ball and then used the density of Black powder(1.7 g/cm^3) to find out how much powder could be accommodated in that space. Now keep in mind the density assumes pretty much more than 100% compression, so the actual figure may be slightly less. If I did all the math correctly I got a figure of 5.2 grains by volume of powder could be potentially stored in that area!

Jerry

 

[indyartisan]

I love Ruger Forum, it is a wealth of knowledge plus it makes me want to get the Old Army out.

 

[Mohillbilly]

I have a 200 year SS that is unmodified . The biggest charge would be when I fill the cylinder with fff pyrodex and strike it off with a card , then I seat a Ox Yoke Wonder (lubed) Wad with my thumb , and ram the wad home. I then seat a .457 ball and ram it as hard as I can . Shoots as hard as my 45 Colt Blkhwk it seems . Don't do this with black as it don't hardly compress .