Old Army Hammer Spring weight

[ROAnutz]

I understand that it's never been thought of as a good idea to reduce the hammer spring pressure on a Ruger Old Army, because it could result in misfires.

Just out of curiosity, has anyone tried lowering the weight of the hammer spring? I understand that the stock spring is #23. Wolf has them all the way down to #15.

 

[flatgate]

I understand that the stock spring is 23#.

Sorry, the ROA mainspring is 25#. PERFECT for larger bore centerfires!!!

The standard Blackhawk/Super Blackhawk/Single-Six springs are 23#.

flatgate

 

[ROAnutz]

I've obtained a bunch of main springs from 15# all the way up to stock. I'm going to change them out, one by one in my ROA and see when it starts to malfunction. I can tell you the 15# doesn't work. It only goes off about half the time.
I can also tell you they are a pain to change.

This is just an experiment.

 

[REP1954]

Light hammer springs and percussion caps? Can you say chainfire?

 

[flatgate]

Soft mainsprings increase "lock time".

"I can also tell you they are a pain to change"......

Huh? Two or three minutes of your time to change one......

flatgate

 

[ROAnutz]

Chainfire...not sure how that comes in. The cap never fires.

Lock time. I can tell you it wasn't really noticeable. I'm sure it was slower but not enough that I went "wow. that was slow".

Pain in the butt to change...man I will give you that in spades! I shot a spring retainer across the room 3 or 4 times, bouncing it off the ceiling or wall. I thought I lost it once when I only heard it bounce once. Which meant it hit the ceiling but nothing else. I found it in the top of one of the curtains.

Anyway. I learned my lessen. There are two spring that work on the hammer. A stock weight spring or one from Lee's Guunsmithing.

 

[REP1954]

Chainfire...not sure how that comes in. The cap never fires

There can be a point where the pressure of the hammer is not sufficent to keep the cap sealed during ignition and at the rear of the cylinder flash can jump to other caps and if those caps are ill fitting you can get a chainfire.

 

[VladTepes]

Chainfire...not sure how that comes in. The cap never fires

There can be a point where the pressure of the hammer is not sufficent to keep the cap sealed during ignition and at the rear of the cylinder flash can jump to other caps and if those caps are ill fitting you can get a chainfire.

And that could ruin your whole day.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

OK For you Guys that don't have a clue what you are talking about :lol: :lol:
Lets see now I only shoot arout 1000 rounds a year in major CAS matches with Old Armys.
Guess what I have #19 springs in mine and they have gone bang for the last 1000 rounds or so.
They work for me
Jim

 

[RaptorIIOwner]

Soft mainsprings increase "lock time".

"I can also tell you they are a pain to change"......

Huh? Two or three minutes of your time to change one......

flatgate

Hi Flatgate,

I am a new - to - me owner of an old model blackhawk, in 44 magnum.

I was cleaning it today, and as I was almost done, I started to put in the hammer strut and mainspring... when... the punch I was using to hold the mainspring tensioned and in place came off, and there went the mainspring.

What is the best way to reinstall the mainspring to the strut?

 

[RaptorIIOwner]

Soft mainsprings increase "lock time".

"I can also tell you they are a pain to change"......

Huh? Two or three minutes of your time to change one......

flatgate

Hi Flatgate,

I am a new - to - me owner of an old model blackhawk, in 44 magnum.

I was cleaning it today, and as I was almost done, I started to put in the hammer strut and mainspring... when... the punch I was using to hold the mainspring tensioned and in place came off, and there went the mainspring.

What is the best way to reinstall the mainspring to the strut?

 

[Flash]

Get a 2x4, drill a 3/8" hole about 1/4" deep to set the strut in. Slide the spring on the strut and place the retainer on a dinner fork and slowly press down. Oh, have a pin handy.
Another way is to plece the retainer in the edge of a drill press vise. Place the strut and spring in the chuck and slowly lower the chuck. Again, have a pin handy

 

[RaptorIIOwner]

Get a 2x4, drill a 3/8" hole about 1/4" deep to set the strut in. Slide the spring on the strut and place the retainer on a dinner fork and slowly press down. Oh, have a pin handy.
Another way is to plece the retainer in the edge of a drill press vise. Place the strut and spring in the chuck and slowly lower the chuck. Again, have a pin handy

Thanks Flash... I'll try this soon as I can.

 

[ROAnutz]

Is there anything else that you've done to your ROA's to help the reliability when using those light springs?

I bought a set of springs ranging from 15 pounds to to stock. I also have a spring from Lee's gunsmithing. He did an action job on my ROA. I had no luck in total reliability from anything but the stock springs or Lee's.

About half the caps would fire....with the 19 pound spring. Is there anything that you did to help? I just couldn't get total reliability with the lighter spring.

OK For you Guys that don't have a clue what you are talking about :lol: :lol:
Lets see now I only shoot arout 1000 rounds a year in major CAS matches with Old Armys.
Guess what I have #19 springs in mine and they have gone bang for the last 1000 rounds or so.
They work for me
Jim

 

[ROAnutz]

That is pure genius. When I was testing different, I fired the retainer all over the living room. It is a really a pain but it sounds like your method will make it much easier.

Get a 2x4, drill a 3/8" hole about 1/4" deep to set the strut in. Slide the spring on the strut and place the retainer on a dinner fork and slowly press down. Oh, have a pin handy.
Another way is to plece the retainer in the edge of a drill press vise. Place the strut and spring in the chuck and slowly lower the chuck. Again, have a pin handy

 

[ROAnutz]

I'm pretty good with wood working, better than than with my ROA. I think I'll make up a bunch of really impressive plaques that say I have come in first place in absolutely nothing. Say things like "32 annual National Broad Side of the Barn Shoot....most misses by a man with two functional eyes.

If I hide them among my Sailboat and college football trophies...I could just pull it off. I could put up an ace of spades with no holes in it what so ever!

The 14th Annual Sucks at Shooting Competition.

1st place in shooting ones own foot competition.

 

[Klondike Mike]

I bought a stainless 5 1/2" Old Army "new in the box". I'm beginning to wonder about that new in the box part? The cylinder takes two trips around to fire all six shots. I tried new caps of both size 10 and 11 standard and magnum with no improvement. I ordered and installed new nipples and that helped a bit. It now takes on average of nine tries to get six shots to fire. I'm beginning to think someone did a kitchen table action job on this one. So, where can I get a 25# hammer spring? Any other suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I don't remember my old blue 7.5" version being this much trouble. I also didn't remember what a PITA it is to clean these things. Smoothbore flintlocks are so easy. Mike

 

[flatgate]

Call Ruger and buy some Old Army mainsprings. The same spring was used in the .357 Maximums back in the 1980's.........

If Ruger is out then try Wolf Gunsprings....... sp?

flatgate

 

[Klondike Mike]

Thanks flatgate. I'll give them a call. Mike

 

[cas6969]

The easiest and fastest way to I stall lightened Ruger main springs is to take them out of the package and throw them right in the trash.

I like to anger people who say that the lighter springs don't effect accuracy...
commenting that they probably can't shoot well enough to notice. :lol:


Any cowboy action shooter worth a hoot, with even the slightest bit of honestly will admit that pure accuracy is one of the least important things in that sports. You don't need a bullseye gun to hit those big targets.

 

[rutcutter]

I also shoot SASS well over 1000 rounds a year. I use stock springs, Butler Creek nipples and CCI #11 caps. Have not had many miss fire.

If someone says they don't have a missfire every now and again with a cap and ball gun, I suspect they are stretching the truth just a tad.

In the past I was told to use Treso nipples with #10 remington caps, I didn't have much luck. I found that Treso nipples have large tolerances in dimensions. Their quality control just isn't there in my opinion.

Your milage may vary.

Mike

 

[Klondike Mike]

Well, I called Ruger and learned that they no longer support the Old Army. So, I asked for a mainspring for a 357 Maximum. No luck there either. I went on Wolff's website and found that they have heavier than stock springs listed. 25, 26 and 28 pounds. I ordered one of each plus a spring kit for my Bearcat and Redhawk. What the heck? I was paying the freight so I might as well get my monies worth. I plan to start with the 25 lb spring and see if that cures the issue. I'll keep youse guys posted and thanks again for the help. Mike

 

[Wyandot Jim]

I'm pretty good with wood working, better than than with my ROA. I think I'll make up a bunch of really impressive plaques that say I have come in first place in absolutely nothing. Say things like "32 annual National Broad Side of the Barn Shoot....most misses by a man with two functional eyes.

If I hide them among my Sailboat and college football trophies...I could just pull it off. I could put up an ace of spades with no holes in it what so ever!

The 14th Annual Sucks at Shooting Competition.

1st place in shooting ones own foot competition.

First off, I thought this Forum was here to help others not to try and be a smart ass and PO others. :wink: You did pretty good on that one. I find that if you talk the talk you better be able to walk the walk. Well I'm running the walk. :lol:
Now to your question. No my OAs have not had anything done to them other than Nickle plating and Treso nipples installed.
All the CAS guys that I know that shoot OAs, which is a couple, use those nipples and well seated Remington #10 caps.
As far as reliability as to what I stated. If you spend $100-300 for a major match. You want the gun to go bang every time. Would be pretty stupid of me to take the chance with a $5.00 spring. I'm fer sure not stupid. I use the 19# spring so I can shoot ONE HANDED FASTER. Try pulling that 1000# spring fast with one hand. 19# works 18# dosn't work, that frigging simple. FWIW 1000 rounds is only about 2 months of shooting for me or ten big matches. Have I had misfires sure but not because of the spring. Think BAD cap

Yea I really don't care how accurate they are until I have to shoot at a 4-6 inch wide falling plate rack at around 7-10 yards :roll: If they need to be any more accurate than that get a rifle. :wink:

FWIW When you have to hit the cap twice it is because you are not seating the cap all the way. GET A PUSH STICK AND USE IT.

To a few That don't think CAS guys can shoot. Come on down and see me. We will have a little oldtime Gunfight Just remember when the buzzer goes off you better be ready. Think Top Shoot for a REAL good example. Great BULLS EYE shootes can't hit a lot under pressure.

 

[ROAnutz]

Well I see how you could take it like that but that was not by intention. It was pure envy that made me write that. I have been very successful at sailing and when I played college ball. My shooting, doesn't measure up to average. I suspect it's my worsening Glaucoma but all my efforts have yielded nothing.

I'm dead serious about trying to get the hammer to drop with less spring weight than whatever Lee's put in on their action job. I bought an array of Wolf springs and ended up back at the Lee I took out. So I'm just curious as can be to find the combination that I could get my ROA down to a 19# hammer spring.

I got this off of Capt Baylor's page
"Resist temptation
Do not replace the hammer spring with a lighter spring. Percussion caps are not primers and normally take a hard hit to fire. Everyone I know who has lightened the hammer spring on a Ruger has returned to the stock one. After shooting my pistols a few months I obtained a Wolff spring kit for 3 screw Rugers from Brownell's with the intention of trying their trigger spring, not the hammer spring. I waited until the guns were thoroughly broken in and installed the trigger springs then, putting both triggers below 4 lb. and quite crisp. That's pretty much all the average non-gunsmith shooter can do to these marvelous pistols."

I'm pretty good with wood working, better than than with my ROA. I think I'll make up a bunch of really impressive plaques that say I have come in first place in absolutely nothing. Say things like "32 annual National Broad Side of the Barn Shoot....most misses by a man with two functional eyes.

If I hide them among my Sailboat and college football trophies...I could just pull it off. I could put up an ace of spades with no holes in it what so ever!

The 14th Annual Sucks at Shooting Competition.

1st place in shooting ones own foot competition.

First off, I thought this Forum was here to help others not to try and be a smart ass and PO others. :wink: You did pretty good on that one. I find that if you talk the talk you better be able to walk the walk. Well I'm running the walk. :lol:
Now to your question. No my OAs have not had anything done to them other than Nickle plating and Treso nipples installed.
All the CAS guys that I know that shoot OAs, which is a couple, use those nipples and well seated Remington #10 caps.
As far as reliability as to what I stated. If you spend $100-300 for a major match. You want the gun to go bang every time. Would be pretty stupid of me to take the chance with a $5.00 spring. I'm fer sure not stupid. I use the 19# spring so I can shoot ONE HANDED FASTER. Try pulling that 1000# spring fast with one hand. 19# works 18# dosn't work, that frigging simple. FWIW 1000 rounds is only about 2 months of shooting for me or ten big matches. Have I had misfires sure but not because of the spring. Think BAD cap

Yea I really don't care how accurate they are until I have to shoot at a 4-6 inch wide falling plate rack at around 7-10 yards :roll: If they need to be any more accurate than that get a rifle. :wink:

FWIW When you have to hit the cap twice it is because you are not seating the cap all the way. GET A PUSH STICK AND USE IT.

To a few That don't think CAS guys can shoot. Come on down and see me. We will have a little oldtime Gunfight Just remember when the buzzer goes off you better be ready. Think Top Shoot for a REAL good example. Great BULLS EYE shootes can't hit a lot under pressure.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Well I see how you could take it like that but that was not by intention. It was pure envy that made me write that. I have been very successful at sailing and when I played college ball. My shooting, doesn't measure up to average. I suspect it's my worsening Glaucoma but all my efforts have yielded nothing.

I'm dead serious about trying to get the hammer to drop with less spring weight than whatever Lee's put in on their action job. I bought an array of Wolf springs and ended up back at the Lee I took out. So I'm just curious as can be to find the combination that I could get my ROA down to a 19# hammer spring.

I got this off of Capt Baylor's page
"Resist temptation
Do not replace the hammer spring with a lighter spring. Percussion caps are not primers and normally take a hard hit to fire. Everyone I know who has lightened the hammer spring on a Ruger has returned to the stock one. After shooting my pistols a few months I obtained a Wolff spring kit for 3 screw Rugers from Brownell's with the intention of trying their trigger spring, not the hammer spring. I waited until the guns were thoroughly broken in and installed the trigger springs then, putting both triggers below 4 lb. and quite crisp. That's pretty much all the average non-gunsmith shooter can do to these marvelous pistols."

I'm pretty good with wood working, better than than with my ROA. I think I'll make up a bunch of really impressive plaques that say I have come in first place in absolutely nothing. Say things like "32 annual National Broad Side of the Barn Shoot....most misses by a man with two functional eyes.

If I hide them among my Sailboat and college football trophies...I could just pull it off. I could put up an ace of spades with no holes in it what so ever!

The 14th Annual Sucks at Shooting Competition.

1st place in shooting ones own foot competition.

First off, I thought this Forum was here to help others not to try and be a smart ass and PO others. :wink: You did pretty good on that one. I find that if you talk the talk you better be able to walk the walk. Well I'm running the walk. :lol:
Now to your question. No my OAs have not had anything done to them other than Nickle plating and Treso nipples installed.
All the CAS guys that I know that shoot OAs, which is a couple, use those nipples and well seated Remington #10 caps.
As far as reliability as to what I stated. If you spend $100-300 for a major match. You want the gun to go bang every time. Would be pretty stupid of me to take the chance with a $5.00 spring. I'm fer sure not stupid. I use the 19# spring so I can shoot ONE HANDED FASTER. Try pulling that 1000# spring fast with one hand. 19# works 18# dosn't work, that frigging simple. FWIW 1000 rounds is only about 2 months of shooting for me or ten big matches. Have I had misfires sure but not because of the spring. Think BAD cap

Yea I really don't care how accurate they are until I have to shoot at a 4-6 inch wide falling plate rack at around 7-10 yards :roll: If they need to be any more accurate than that get a rifle. :wink:

FWIW When you have to hit the cap twice it is because you are not seating the cap all the way. GET A PUSH STICK AND USE IT.

To a few That don't think CAS guys can shoot. Come on down and see me. We will have a little oldtime Gunfight Just remember when the buzzer goes off you better be ready. Think Top Shoot for a REAL good example. Great BULLS EYE shootes can't hit a lot under pressure.

If that is the case. I'm SO SORRY that I took it the wrong way. You know that I have tried to help you and several others on this Forum.
At times stuff just comes across wrong on the computer.
When some of the Guys bad mouth CAS on here. It just Pisses me off. Most can not believe how hard it really is to do good at it. Yea I have shot a bunch of other stuff also. Ya ever wonder why they don't get CAS shooters on Top Shot. Those Mounted Shooters that can't hit crap with real bullets don't count :wink:
I have shot with Geo Baylor for around 10 years. A lot NOT ALL he says is true.
Bottom line is if you are not trying to shoot one handed FAST springs really don't mean much. Now don't take me wrong on this. All the Fast Guys like Joe Bowman and Bob Munden have light springs along with the fast draw Guys. They really don't care about Lock Time.
Now for the 19# spring to work just make sure the hammer is not binding/rubbing on the frame.
If I could get a #5 spring to work I would use it. When you have an old thumb you need all the help you can get

Really I'm sorry to have taken your post wrong. I'm here to help everyone I can and some real good friends are on this Forum

Jim

 

[Klondike Mike]

Well the post rider delivered a box from Wolff Springs today and I installed the 25# mainspring. It is about a third longer than the stock spring I took out. I won't get a chance to try it out until the weekend though the hammer does seem heavier but somehow smoother. But not too much heavier considering the additional length. I'm no stranger to black powder shooting and I'm certainly not trying to set any speed records, I just want this thing to go bang when I pull the trigger. Jim, can you shed some more light on the "push stick"? I've been seating the caps with some serious thumb pressure but was always taught to not use any type of tool to push a cap onto a loaded cylinder. My last Old Army wasn't this finicky. Thanks again for the help; Mike

 

[ROAnutz]

I ordered the entire range of hammer springs from wolf, trying to find the "magic" combo.

I have shot the retainer all over the place, trying to get the new spring in. I'm likely now more accurate with firing the retainer than the pistol.

I saw a tip here which came a across as a "D, Oh!" moment. The post said to get a piece of wood, drill a 1/4" hole in it, to hold the base of the strut so it couldn't slide. Then compress the retainer on the spring using a FORK! This makes it easy to put the nail back in the retaining hole. Pull the fork out and it's ready to pop back into the grip frame.

I wish I had thought of that. I changed the spring in my ROA about 10 times looking for one that worked and I liked. I kid you not, that spring will fire the retainer into orbit if it gets loose.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Well the post rider delivered a box from Wolff Springs today and I installed the 25# mainspring. It is about a third longer than the stock spring I took out. I won't get a chance to try it out until the weekend though the hammer does seem heavier but somehow smoother. But not too much heavier considering the additional length. I'm no stranger to black powder shooting and I'm certainly not trying to set any speed records, I just want this thing to go bang when I pull the trigger. Jim, can you shed some more light on the "push stick"? I've been seating the caps with some serious thumb pressure but was always taught to not use any type of tool to push a cap onto a loaded cylinder. My last Old Army wasn't this finicky. Thanks again for the help; Mike

bought a stainless 5 1/2" Old Army "new in the box". I'm beginning to wonder about that new in the box part? The cylinder takes two trips around to fire all six shots. I tried new caps of both size 10 and 11 standard and magnum with no improvement. I ordered and installed new nipples and that helped a bit. It now takes on average of nine tries to get six shots to fire.

Mike,

Most of the time when the cap doesn't go off until the second hammer strike it means you are not seating the cap. The hammer seated it on the first strike then fired it on the second. This isn't the caps fault, nipples fault or the springs fault, your fault :wink:
I don't know how you install your caps, but if you use a straight line or a snail caper they will not seat a cap all the time. They are made to put the cap on the nipple. So use a wood dowel to push the cap on to seat it. No it will not go bang. Everybody I know does this without any scary things taking place :lol: Just a firm push is enough. Most of the time you can see the cap move forward. Now it is properly seated.
The way I do mine is. I put them on with my finger. Since I load with a press the cylinder is out of the gun. I have tried the capers and for me this is the easiest way. After the cylinder is back in the gun I seat them with my push stick. My push stick is a wood short starter that I have had for years.
Give this a try and let me know how it turns out. By the way you can pop the caps in the house, garage, or outside. Ya don't need to load the OA.
I do this a lot for practicing a fast reload or just to make sure everything is running OK before a match.
I will also not use any cap but Remmeinton #10s The ones with the green inside not the older gold inside ones

Now the reason many others and I use the Treso nipples is the flash hole is much smaller than the Ruger Nipple. This allows a couple of things to happen. When the cap ignites it shoots a smaller and longer jet of flame to powder. Upon powder ignition the pressure from the powder has a harder time blowing back and blowing off the spent cap. A lot of times a spent cap will even jam up an OA. Not good. It can also land on top or between your hand and grip. REALLY NOT good when trying to shoot fast. Trust me all of this has happened and will happen to you.

 

[Klondike Mike]

Jim; I finally got to the range today after last weekend's hurricane. I tried the OA with the new mainspring and got four out of six to fire with the first hammer strike. Then I tried your push stick method with an old wooden short starter. I was a little apprehensive so didn't push as hard as I should have and got five out of six to fire first try. I then tried to set off the caps on the EMPTY cylinder with the push stick and could not get one to pop. Not that I didn't trust you . So, I then loaded her up and seated the caps with the push stick for all I was worth. Six for six Baby! Thanks for the advice. I really am developing an admiration for you guys that compete with these things. I'm still kind of thinking that black powder revolvers are the Devil's own handiwork. Thanks again; Mike

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Jim; I finally got to the range today after last weekend's hurricane. I tried the OA with the new mainspring and got four out of six to fire with the first hammer strike. Then I tried your push stick method with an old wooden short starter. I was a little apprehensive so didn't push as hard as I should have and got five out of six to fire first try. I then tried to set off the caps on the EMPTY cylinder with the push stick and could not get one to pop. Not that I didn't trust you . So, I then loaded her up and seated the caps with the push stick for all I was worth. Six for six Baby! Thanks for the advice. I really am developing an admiration for you guys that compete with these things. I'm still kind of thinking that black powder revolvers are the Devil's own handiwork. Thanks again; Mike

Mike,
Good for you. Glad it is working for you.
Let me ask are you useing Remington #10 caps on stock Ruger nipples. The reason I ask is that you shouldn't have to push for all your worth. When I'm just messing around/popping caps, I just push them on with my fingers. Probably 95% of the time they go off without useing the push stick.
Anyway now ya know what the pain in the arsh it is to get these to go bang everytime when it counts.
Hang in there.
Jim