Need help w/ "flyer"

[deadwooddick]

Three shot groups (100Y)… 2 in sub 1/2", third is ~1" away (verticallly)… specifically, the 1st at POA, then the 2nd away and the 3rd… back w/ the first shot. Occasionally the 2nd is >1" distant. The first shot is not always at POA (up to 1" off POA)… the #1 & #3 shots are ALWAYS < 1/2 inch.

#1B, 6mm Remington, w/ 16X Weaver in OEM mounts. MMRT, no difference. Sling studs removed. Load: Hornady 95 SST, 37gr/4064, CCI 200, chronographed M.V. = 2855 f.p.s., ES 24, SD 8. Same/same… new brass (BR processed) or 1X fired, necksized only. Occurs with barrel warm(ish), pretty warm and sequenced w/ cooled barrel. Full clean or fouled… no difference. I am careful w/ positioning on front rest & rear sandbag (neither are "hard") Conditions: 70ºF, 2-5 mph from 2 o'clock clear sky. :?: :?:

Richard

 

[Sam Johnson]

Richard, Sounds like you have covered most causes. One thing that gave me fits with my .243 was my powder measure. I was checking every 10 cases with the scale and found some were lite. After a good cleaning the powder measure was back on accurate.
For my best loads I measure each charge on the scale.
Also go back and re check all scope mounts and stock screws.
Sam

 

[picketpin]

Dick: What other loads have you tried?? Often, #1s can be VERY finicky and the biggest single biggest problem over the last 40 years for me has been barrel harmonics and the fact that #1s are VERY sensitive about it and a load that may work perfectly well in on 6mm "B" may not shoot worh a damn in another.

I have 5 #1 "B" 257 Roberts. NONE shoot the same preferred load. It's taken quite a few years to find "A" load that my 5 plus 3 or 4 other owned by other family members will shoot "WELL"

Same thing with the four 6mm Rem #1s I have. A non prefix, Douglas barrel "B", very early 130 with a Douglas barrel "B", a 132 Wilson barreled "B" and a 132 Wilson barreled "V". There are a few loads all shoot okay but not a one of them has the same BEST load for accuracy.

I think I've tried nearly all the tricks, speed/target hammer and spring, after market triggers, Hicks no Hicks MMRT no MMRT seating depths, multiple powders and a WIDE variety of bullets, including weights, design and manufacturer. I found good loads and then tried every primer available and sometime it's as simple as that with a specific powder.

Try to keep somethings constant and only change one thing at a time. Have you tried it without the forearm attached/installed? Varied the forearm pressure?

It took me a year to get my 22PPC sub MOA. It took another year to get it sub 1/2" in the last three years I've managed to get two loads with two seperate bullets, powders etc down into the mid .4s Every once in a while it'll go into the high .3s if I do everything right. The can be .....finicky.

Ross

 

[Sagebrush Burns]

You might try another scope that you know is accurate on the rifle. Also make sure all mount screws are tight. Often a "back and forth" group like you describe is an indicator of scope or mount issues. Could be loose mounts or something loose in the scope moving back and forth.

 

[Ruger # 1 Guy]

I am careful w/ positioning on front rest & rear sandbag (neither are "hard") Conditions: 70ºF, 2-5 mph from 2 o'clock clear sky. :?: :?:
Richard

Richard,
For high end accurcy off a bench you may want to use "heavy sand" and pack it hard, not soft. Also make sure that your gun slides easy on the bags. Sometimes this will make a big difference in accurcy, I know it does for me.
Ruger # 1 Guy

 

[deadwooddick]

Many thanks to all the respondants, very much appreciated. My apologies for the long-windedness of the following —

Additional info:
New R-P cases, BR case prep… deburred flash hole, weight checked the cases to 2 grains, deburred case necks.

Loads… dropped from a BR tuned powder measure and then trickled to desired weight. "Good" first loads were then varied by .5 grains for range of ± 2 grain from “starting load(s). The IMR 4350 flat out didn’t shoot, so thinking maybe Varget, H4831, etc.

Seating depths varied from at lands to - 0.100 off. The “bigger” jumps… definitely, positively… the poorest performer(s) of the three shot sequence, each one was separated by 1 1/2 inches (vis-a-vis, large triangle).

Buttstock fit is snug and the bolt is (very) tight. F/E is pretty darn snug, as well. The F/E has zero contact w/ the barrel.

IIRC… there “could be” an issue w/ scope rail being too tight to receiver… checked when I first got the rifle, yup (relieved it .080”). Now considering the F/E to receiver face fit re: relieving it by similar amount.

I’m a “bag squeezer” i.e., not using a Farley (joystick) front rest.

Ross, not having BR dies for this ctg, I load at home, then make a range trip. To tell the truth, I ran out of ammo before I got a chance to try the no F/E technique. Can I assume bag/barrel contact would be forward of the hagner assembly ? FWIW, I did vary the F/E screw tension/tightness.

RE: no F/E… brings up a question— if it “does shoot” w/o the F/E, what needs to be “fixed” so it will perform as well with the F/E in place ? Finally, is the Wilson bbl on the 130- series a “good” barrel ? FWIW, I’ve borescoped the barrel and see no obvious defect(s). Working up loads is tedious, as we all know. I have several manuals to work from, but does anyone have other powder suggestions beyond 4064 and H4831 ?

Cleaning… I use Boretech Eliminator… patch out the carbon, 2 wet, soak for 5 min. dry patch, then brush w/ Eliminator. Sets for 10 min, the dry patch. Follow w/2 wet (they come out blue) soak 5 then dry. Third set of wet AGAIN show blue stripes (from lands).

Decided to soak overnite. Finger cot over muzzle, filled bore. Drained Boretech was bright blue. First patch after draining was blue, the second showed little blue, the third was lightly “steel grey.” A wet patch follwed by a dry one… no blue. Then 10 strokes of JB on a wrapped brush (to polish). Dry patch showed slight grey, JB residue IMO. Lubed w/ Rin=mfire Blend as rust preventative. Wiped dry before firing.

Regarding bags… conflicting opinions on this…

Boyd Allen (over @ BRC) regarding a hard front bag… “After adding more sand it tracked better, and shot worse. There was an immediate, and significant increase in vertical.”

Greg Walley at Kelbly’s Inc. (again, over @ BRC) “We’ve fixed a lot of bad guns-barrels-scopes-actions over the years by simply removing a bit of sand from both sandbags.”

Tony Boyer points out in his book that hard front bags opens group. (Tony is the world’s winningest BR shooter.)

I can use my heavy sand filled rearbag (for BR comps) as a front. Will try, but as w/ “no F/E” how do I get similar accuracy via the hard front bag… if shooting from a field position (i.e., hunting) ? My "hope" was to use this #1 in the field at 250 - 350Y so sub-moa groups are "necessary."

I could fit a Leupold 3.5-10X that I know is good, but dang that means either re-sighting in my 330 Dakota… or buying ANOTHER scope, with the cost being about about equal, considering the cost of the Dakota ammo ! :shock:

Again, my heartfelt thanks,
Richard

 

[Ruger # 1 Guy]

Well,
Here's something else you may want to try, do you index your brass ?. I've always had better accurcy with hard bags but I'm not useing a rounded fore end so there's no twist when shot.

Tony Boyer is da man, but don't forget, a # 1 is not a bolt gun so some bolt gun ideas may not work.
Ruger # 1 Guy

 

[Silent Sam]

Perhaps your flyers aren't flyers at all. They may just be indicative of the actual group size. If you save your targets, overlay them and look at the overall shot dispersion. Three shots at a time is a very small sample size to draw any meaningful conclusions.

 

[picketpin]

Richard: Information/ideas are NOT generic but VERY specific to #1s.

By removing the forearm entirely and shooting the rifle off the ACTION bottom, you have removed the forearm and any forearm hanger issues from the equation. If the groups improve without the forearm, tighter without the flyers, even if the first three aren't touching then I generally eliminate the forearm as a major issue.

Reinstall the forearm. Then shoot a groups without much forearm pressure at all and then increase tension. There will be some point that the rifle prefers. Either record it in inch pounds so you can repeat it or at least count the turns on the screw.

Have the groups EVER been larger in overall size but MORE uniform?

Personally I think at LOT of the recommendations for #1s are grossly over rated. I don't own a single #1 out of 50 or so that has the barrel rib cut in half. I have never done many/most of the mods I see posted.

Joe Miller our fearless leader and #1 guru on the # Group has held many/most of the accuracy records for our annual shoots.

He replaces the hammer/spring with a Moulds hammer either the speed or target version and replaces the trigger with a Keplinger. He's the father of the MMRT.

He currently holds the 6mm record with his factory barreled 6mm PPC. Prior to that he was shooting a 6mm Remington that held the record. I bought the 6mm Remington from him when he got the PPC. It came with over 400 cases, prepped and sorted by weight, exactly 20 of which had been fired.

MY experience is that the loads and finding EXACTLY what powder/bullet/velocity/primer/case etc is more important in a #1 than almost anything else , UNLESS there is an issue with the scope/bases, forearm bearing unevenly, or some other issue. If those have been eliminated then it's almost always a load or shooting technique issue.

The BEST #1s will shoot as well as MOST bolt guns. The BEST #1 will NEVER out shoot the BEST bolt guns. It's simply the nature of the beast and the fact that closing the action is pushing things apart NOT camming them together like a bolt gun.

AS for barrels. There is nothing wrong with most Wilson barrels. Some of the early barrels had issues with throating but that was more an issue about what cartridge it was chambered in than anything else. Is it as "GOOD" as a high dollar after market barrel?? Probably. It would be damned hard to prove by me that ANY brand of barrel is "better" than the factory #1 barrels.. I know there are guys the immediately remove the factory barrel and put on something else. I'll just mention that Joe Millers rifles with the exception of one, are shooting the barrel they left the factory with.

The two most accurate #1s I own are a 22BR "B" and a 257 Roberts "V".

The 257 Roberts was the first serious #1 I had built. It started life as a 1970 22-250 "V" with a factory Douglas barrel. I sent it to Doug Shilen and had it rebarreled with a Match Grade Shilen barrel on the same contour with a slightly different crown. Doug breached it up as tight as any #1 I've ever seen. It was built around the best varmint load for 257 Roberts I had at the time. So it was built around a tight necked case, shooting a 75 grain Sierra at a specific length and loaded to very specific OAL. It is very accurate and was the single most accurate #1 I owned for years.

In the next twenty years or so I made a LOT of wildcats and varmint #1s with barrels from Douglas, Shilen, Hart, LLija, Kreiger and lord knows who else. NONE were any more accurate than that first Shilen tube.

In the early 90s I bought a 218 Bee "S". After a while I decided it was a damned heavy rifle to pack around in 218 Bee. I had my local smith turn it back two threads and re chamber it to 22BR so it removed all of the Bee chamber including the rim. It is a factory "B" weight, WILSON barrel. It seemed accurate right from the start. I went ahead and replaced the hammer/spring and trigger and started playing with loads. Yes it has the MMRT and I played with forearm pressure but the vast majority of what I did was load work.

It routinely out shoots everything but the 257 Roberts. SO NO I don't think the barrel is the problem out of hand nor do I think replacing a factory barrel that shoots well with a high dollar barrel from ANYBODY will appreacibly improve accuracy over what a well tuned #1 will do with a decent factory barrel.

Two piece stock, falling block action, forearm hanger .............................. there are enough design issues that can't be overcome by all the KNOWN/recommended mods unless there are actually "issues"

The MMRT essentually replaces the factory pressure pad. Being slightly resilient it allows the barrel to settle back into "battery" more evenly. Or at least that's been my experience.

Why do I continue to tinker with #1s? I have a LOT of very accurate bolt guns including a bunch that are essentualy full blown BR rifles. The reason I shoot #1s is that it IS harder to get them to shoot really well and that allows me to spend uncounted hours in the reloading room and at the range/in the field.

I suspect that in the end unless there is actually an issue causing the point of impact to shift it'll turn out to be barrel harmonics and finding THE load that your rifle prefers. That's why I NEVER recommend a load. What shoots in MY rifle well, may be the worst load in the world for yours.

Some years ago Cousin Wayne and I built IDENTICAL 17 Mach IVs. They are essentualy factory "AH" The barrels are Shilen and Shilen did all the work. When they got home I started working with mine and finally found a load it likes, a lot. Then I started on Cousin Wayne's using my load as a starting point. Talk about crummy "Groups". patterns would be more accurate. Best that Wayne's rifle would do with MY load was 6"!!! His now shoots as well as mine. Mine shoots 20 grain Bergers with IMR 4227, a CCI BR4 primer. Waynes shoots H335, a 25 grain factory Remington bullet and uses a Rem 7 1/2 primer. Doug Shilen assures me that the two rifles are "As identical as I could make them"

Barring "problems it's almost always a load issue.

Ross

 

[Ruger # 1 Guy]

I don't know what else to say, your doing about what has to be done to get high end accurcy out of a # 1. I used to shoot one in 6 MM Rem and found a photo of the average group it would shoot. It was set up with a Speed Hammer, K Trigger, MMRT, R-P sorted and indexed brass, Fed Match primers, etc.

Being I shoot in matches I never shoot less than five shot groups, three may be ok for hunting but for score you need five. If I did this right you should see a photo of an average group that my old gun shot.

Only sold it because I found a factory 6 PPC that shot better than the 6 MM Rem
Ruger # 1 Guy

 

[deadwooddick]

Ross, Thank You… for hints re: how to shoot w/o F/E. And for suggesting load development. And Sagebrush… for the suggestion to CHECK THE SCOPE. Not forgetting the other posts… that keep me focused..

My first range session w/ new brass, gave me a single flyer out by an inch on many of the groups shot. The second, w/ new brass gave groups that were triangles up to 3 inches on a side. The third w/ 1X fired brass, likewise… but big(ger) triangles.

Have 24 1X fired cases remaining from the lot… will reload some w/ the one load that performed best in first session a second bunch w/ same powder charge but 1) try w/o the F/E and 2) swap the Weaver for a Leupold (found sitting in the back of the safe).

In the past I have found (w/ bolt guns (and I know it's Apples and Oranges)) that a load that "wants to shoot" can be made better by 1) changing COAL, 2) by primer change(s) 3) load adjustment 4) powder change(s). IMHO, if at the edge of great performance, adjusting COAL is most productive. I can say, in this case, the CCI-200s are way better than F210 or F210M and Rem 9 1/2 and that 4064 is better than 4350.

When first acquired, I did put in a Moulds hammer, have a Kepplinger trigger but holding off on installation… definitely need to confirm this #1 "can shoot" reasonable groups before fitting the K in what will be a hunting rifle. i do like small groups and a K helps w/ that as it did on a 7 Mag I sold to a young man (as his first rifle) some 12 years back. FWIW, getting IT to shoot wasn't near the trouble this 6mm is giving me.

FWIW, my first hunting rifle was a 4 digit .308W. That started my 40 year interest in #1s (and single shots, in general). More than 30 S/S reside in my safe, currently only one #1 but that can change, depending on what #1 is at the next gunshow. :roll:

Many thanks to all who posted, w/ your help and suggestions/hints……I will lick this. :!:

Richard

P.S. I gotta be nuts, really… I can use this #1, a SINGLESHOT… that repeatedly places the 1st shot to POA but am chasing where the second shot goes… when if done right… I'll not need a 2nd. :wink:

 

[picketpin]

It sure looks like I should drag that ratty ole 6mm "V", that shot the above target, out of the safe and shoot it once in a while.

Richard: just keep tinkering and you "find" it. Honest it's sometimes taken me YEARS to really get them TIGHT. Thankfully I can live with MOA for "Hunting" rifles and .5 or so for "Varmint" rifles in #1s. It's just this obsession to get the "Target" ones into the .3s ;-( If I was smart I'd sell them all and buy/build some more Stolles and other BR rifles. Naw, that would be too easy.

Ross

 

[Ruger # 1 Guy]

It sure looks like I should drag that ratty ole 6mm "V", that shot the above target, out of the safe and shoot it once in a while.

Ross,
Whay makes you think that your gun shot the above target ? :twisted:
Ruger # 1 Guy

 

[roofinspector]

I was wondering if the 0.329" target pictured was shot with a 6mm?

Maybe just the camera, but looks more than 3 bullets wide.

 

[picketpin]

I could be wrong and if I am and you are offended then I applogize. The 6mm "V" I have was purchased from a friend and fellow #1 GRoup member in 2007 or 2008. He had used it to set the groups size in the 2005 and 2006 #1 Group Postal Shoot. He sold it after he found a factory 6mm PPC to replace it.

When it was shipped it arrived with over 400 new cases . Out of that the previous owner had segregated 20 that weighed exactly the same and were marked with a black felt marker to index in the chamber when firing groups.

I may have jumped to a unwarranted conclusion but it sure seems coincidental that the histories are so close to the same. I I "claimed" a rifle I don't own then I appologize.

I have never fired the 6mm "V" since purchasing it. There are just too many #1s around here to get around to shooting them all. I looked in my factory "Letters" but don't seem to have lettered it. (No real reason to given serial number range and just how common 6mm "V" is) I could check in the safe and find the serial number of the one I have, if it really matters.

Ross

 

[Ruger # 1 Guy]

I was wondering if the 0.329" target pictured was shot with a 6mm?
Maybe just the camera, but looks more than 3 bullets wide.

roofinspector,
You have to read the post, not just look at the photo. Yes it was shot with a 6 MM Rem, and yes it is more than 3 bullets, it a five shot group, like I've said, I never shoot three shot groups because when shooting in an event you have to shoot five shots on each target, it's the only way you can shoot a 50, if you only shot three shots in a five shot match the best you would do would be a 30, and that won't win a 50 point event even if you keep all three in the 10 ring
Ruger # 1 Guy

 

[Ruger # 1 Guy]

I could be wrong and if I am and you are offended then I applogize. The 6mm "V" I have was purchased from a friend and fellow #1 GRoup member in 2007 or 2008. He had used it to set the groups size in the 2005 and 2006 #1 Group Postal Shoot. He sold it after he found a factory 6mm PPC to replace it.

When it was shipped it arrived with over 400 new cases . Out of that the previous owner had segregated 20 that weighed exactly the same and were marked with a black felt marker to index in the chamber when firing groups.

I may have jumped to a unwarranted conclusion but it sure seems coincidental that the histories are so close to the same. I I "claimed" a rifle I don't own then I appologize.

I have never fired the 6mm "V" since purchasing it. There are just too many #1s around here to get around to shooting them all. I looked in my factory "Letters" but don't seem to have lettered it. (No real reason to given serial number range and just how common 6mm "V" is) I could check in the safe and find the serial number of the one I have, if it really matters.
Ross

Ross, I'm not offended at all, no need to applogize for anything. If you were the one that bought the Joe Miller # 1 it probably will shoot better than the one I sold.

It's just a coincidence that we I did the same thing, but I didn't have 400 rounds of brass for mine, only had about 200 rds.

By the way, I've shot with him in two events, all I can say is he's a scary good shooter.
Ruger # 1 Guy

 

[roofinspector]

I thought it was a 5 shot group. Appears to be more than three shots, just what I saw from the picture.

I was curious about the measurement, it appears that there could be three bullet holes down the diagonal. That would be more than the measurement if center to center spacing was used.

I notice a lot of groups being shown on the various internet sites. I once saw a group being posted as a 30 caliber world? record(not sure whose sanctioning body), that was a fine group surely, a 0.218" but with the holes not touching, I could not reason how it was measured.

I suspect that a 6mm Remington going against a 6PPC or 6BR might have a hard time in short range group matches; all things being otherwise equal.

I too believe in 5 shot groups, it shows relative system stability to me. I used to shoot competitively as well, not a big deal to anyone in these times, but enjoyed it while there. Everyone tries competition once or so in their tenure.

 

[Ruger # 1 Guy]

roofinspector,
I agree, It does look larger than .329 but it measured edge to edge at .572, - .243 = .329. Once in awhile it would shoot in the high 2's and of course once in a while in the high 3's.

A .218" in a 30 caliber # 1 is something really great. But with the holes not touching it seems about imposable. The Joe Miller that Ross has mentioned shoots a 30 BR in a # 1 and I think he said the best groups he ever got with it were in the low to high 1's but only once in awhile, and never in a match. I think he holds the Ruger # 1 record with it but don't remember what the group size is.

Do you shoot in the Ruger # 1 shoot that's held every year, it's a fun Postal Match and can be interesting.
Ruger # 1 Guy

 

[picketpin]

Yes, I have Joe's rifle. I'm still waiting for MY 6mm PPC. ;-)

I took a look and he won the group size with his 30BR in the 2011 shoot. 2 five shot groups averaged. Group one was .218 and the second was .378 for a two group average of .298.

Yes, he's a scary old fart. ;-) Did you beat him for score?

The best

Ross

 

[Ruger # 1 Guy]

Yes, but not by much, only got him by two X's, don't know how things will turn out this year other than I didn't shoot as well as I did last year, won't know the results of the shoot till Oct. 30th. when the Match is over.
Ruger # 1 Guy