NEED HELP PLEASE DOUBLE FIRE .454 SRH (RANGE REPORT)

[David Bradshaw]

sbyrd... treating the Hornady .452 240 XTP Mag to 37-38 grains/H110 sounds beau coups hot.

I load same 240 XTP Mag over 32/H110 for a Freedom Arms 4-3/4", which, according to the Oehler 35P, produces 1550 fps. That's about as much earthquake as I need from a pistol hanging on my hip.

If you are able to shoot your loads into snow this winter, and recover the bullets, you will have the bullet as it exited the muzzle. You will then see any irregularities of engraving (rifling deeper on one side; rifling engraved deep on one shoulder then deep in the opposite heel; and obturation (deformity). Culprits include deep or eccentric forcing cone, oversize chamber exits, oversize groove diameter and, to a lesser extent, chamber-to-bore misalignment. Cylinder gap and muzzle crown did not come to this party.

For a lighter load, one which will drop a deer (and there are many): .45 Colt case, mag primer, Sierra 240 JHC, 27 gr./H110.
David Bradshaw

 

[Donaldjr1969]

The doubling can be caused by your grip loosening. If your grip relaxes enough (not much needed in a 454 Casull or 500 S&W), the piece recoils away from your trigger finger, allowing the trigger to reset. Then it bounces off the ball of your hand, driving the trigger into your trigger finger, getting you your bonus round.

You have seen that personally, haven't you, Jeff??

It has happened to me with my 500 S&W...because of my own mistake. I was using a very light grip on it to try to eliminate any trigger slap. I can use a very light grip with my 44 Mag SRH, Jeff's single actions (obviously) as well as his S&W M28. So I got a bit careless. Guess what? BOOM BOOM!!! As if hearing S&W 500 report is not startling enough for the unprepared, 2 rapid reports really gets a WTF look. However, it never happened again as I changed my grip. FWIW, I was shooting with Magtech 325g (full power, not their light loadings) factory rounds. The Hornady 500g loads and the Winchester 400g Platinum Tips did not double on me.

If one's hands are sweaty, this can happen even easier since sweaty palms will allow the grip to slide in the hand.

Jeff is one heckuva good guy, eh? Good folk.

For sure. He helped get me started in reloading. Gave me 100 primers and 100 240g JSPs to get me started with my 44Mag. He also gave me some 44Mag brass to supplement my 300pcs I collected.

Man, that had to be one hell of an experience.

Makes me glad I shoot a 500 in SA Honestly, I am sure if one of the present loads did that I'd probably have a coronary. I did have a round go off unexpectedly as I was just moving the gun toward downrange with one hand. I touched one off that sailed into the woods. Thought I had Satan by the tail. Hell, my loadings are about like unleashing Satan, as it is. . .

It surprised the <snot> out of me because prior to that, I had several outings with my 500 and nothing of the sort occurred. However, I changed things around one day and this happened. At least I shoot with locked elbows so while there was the unintended second shot, it went into the extreme upper edge of the trap.

After that, I did different grips with one shot at a time. I also saw a youtube video with the 2tap that showed the position of the shooter's thumbs during a double. So now I shoot with a crush grip and the thumb of my support hand wraps around the base of the shooting hand thumb to help pin it against the grip. To date, no more double taps.

So yes, it was a bit of a problem but a very easy one to correct.

 

[Donaldjr1969]

Donaldjr1969... I would have liked to see your S&W .500 double! Such rapid fire might work to your advantage in a tent with Ole Griz. With cylinder float on a .500 Smith held in one hand, it might empty the gun!

Your eyes probably would have got wide. I know Jeff had a WTF look on his face.

I first experienced cylinder float----with and without doubling----on a Model 29 in the late 1970s. After which I observed it at a couple of IHMSA silhouette matches. The cause differs mechanically from the same problem on the SRH. The Redhawk and SRH have a stiff cylinder stop spring. The S&W M-29 (don't have a .500 handy to check) has a soft stop spring. As the big bore S&W recoils upward, inertia holds the light stop down, unlocking the cylinder. The Smith also has an ocillation feature which probably enables the stop to be kicked be the cylinder notch.

If the X-Frame inherited the traditional S&W cylinder stop, the cure may be difficult.
David Bradshaw

From what I can tell Dave, the X-frame's stop is indeed beefed up over the N-Frame. Although later on, I can do a simple "touch test" by pressing down on both stops.

 

[Donaldjr1969]

OK I see. So it's actually an unintentional double pull do to the recoil.

That recoil would be the reason I sold my .500 S&W. Even with reduced recoil loads it was a bear. And My hand would ache for days after shooting it.

When I first shot the 500 as a range rental, I had the same sensation in my hand at the base of the thumb. As time went on and I modified my grip, I came to experience no pain even after shooting 40 full house loads. My grip I mentioned above where I use my support hand to help crush the shooting hand against the handgrip seems to keep that from happening. After all, when shooting some 12g 3" or 3.5" magnum loads, if you keep the butt firmly against your shoulder, the heaviest loads can be shot all day with no ill effects. Have the stock loose and, recoil pad or not, you will get thumped and even a small bruise. Keeping my hand tight on the grip prevents the grip from slapping my palm.

Of course, I am just a masochistic recoil junkie. The 500 is not for everybody.

 

[Donaldjr1969]

OK here goes went to the range yesterday I put 12# wolf hammer spring in it as many of you know I was getting alot of double fires the good news is I fired 30 rnds. through it double fired on me on the last shot it was my fault my hand was hurtin me and I had a lose grip on gun.

Given the fact your SRH weighs about 19oz less than my 500, I suspect the recoil would be snappier due to the reduced weight. Indeed, one of our members (was it Revhigh??) said the 454 SRH has recoil that is far snappier than the 500's hard shove.

The bad news is I could'nt get a group to save my life I put one of sixshots peep sights on it thinkin I might shoot better with it. I think its my reloads i'm shooting hornady 240 gr. xtp mag. brand new WW cases cci 400 S.R primers 38 gr. H110 max is 38.2 gr. cases trimmed to same length 1.380 O.A.L 1.765 with a stiff roll crimp everything is right on I have hornady electronic scale I trickle it in to 38 gr. these are very uniform loads @ 25 yds. I was all over with some touching then three or four that would make the group 8" sometimes bigger I was shooting off a bench with sand bags nothing touching the barrel just my hands and the trigger gaurd on the bags felt solid. AM I TO HOT?? with that load I have a muzzle velosity of 2000 fps!! do I need to reduce it, do I need a heavier bullet, different bullet, I plan on useing it for short range deer or elk would like to be shooting 100 yrds. comfortable. Any help info anything you can think of I would be very thankfull.

Thank You Scott

Scott, speaking from my doubling experience with my 500, I think your mind is probably getting you to tighten up unnecessarily and/or flinch because you are concerned about a double tap. I was the same way in that I squeezed the trigger so hard as to send the bullet down and to the right. But that soon disappeared so now I have to just be careful not to let the barrel droop when shooting. I suspect when your confidence gets back up, your groups will improve.

As for your load, that's pretty much a max charge for a 240g 454 load according to Hodgdon data. So it is not as if you are hot-rodding anything.

 

[feets]

Scott, I hope you've found a way to control that revolver.
You're beating yourself up for no good reason. I, too, have a 7-1/2" SRH in 454. I typically run loads on the bottom end of the scale with H110. If you were to do that with your loads it would save a little powder, reduce the recoil noticeably, and you'll only lose around 100 fps. The reduced battering on your body and mind will show in your control over the gun as well as better groups.
Many people have proven than a 45 Colt launching a 250 grain cast bullet at 1200 fps will plow end to end through a large deer.
Stepping that up to 1900 fps is pointless at typical handgun ranges.
Drop down to 36.5 grains of H110 under those 240s. Do not go below minimum with H110. I had a couple squibs that were a few grains under minimum by mistake. One of those loads made a pop followed by a hissing sound. The bullet was stuck in the barrel and the powder was packed in behind it.

I must confess that I went hypersonic with my 460 S&W because I thought it was cool. You see, instead of a revolver I bought a 15" Encore pistol barrel. The factory 200 grain Hornady loads averaged 2697 fps out of that tube. The recoil beat me so badly that I could not hit a 20 oz bottle at 25 yards on the third shot. I had to add a muzzle brake to give me any sense of control over the gun.
Then, I thought it would be amusing to drop a 335 grain hunk of lead over 39 grains of H110. That load averaged 2030 fps and stopped all action on the range. The first round was impressive. The second round had firm recoil. The third round took the smile off my face. It became work rather quickly.
I did a few other silly things like launch 230 grain FMJ over 2400 fps just to see if the bullet would stay together.
Eventually, I found myself loading it down, trying to find a way to lob 300 gr silhouette bullets at 1400 fps. At that level the recoil was fairly low and it would be something I could use for IHMSA. The problem was that I couldn't slow it down safely without dropping to Trail Boss and 1200 fps loads.
That's when I decided to sell the barrel and buy the 454.
You see, hot rodding heavy bullets in a handgun will wear most people down. You can only put a few rounds down range before the pounding alters your accuracy. That's why big boomers are the last guns of the day. After a good dose of 454 you'll be hard pressed to make a 22 shoot straight.

 

[Donaldjr1969]

If the X-Frame inherited the traditional S&W cylinder stop, the cure may be difficult.
David Bradshaw

I gave a basic push test to my 500's cylinder stop and it feels to have the same tension as my Super Redhawk. It is a bit shorter (the blade of the stop) than my SRH because it is in the center of the frame while the SRH's is slightly offset to the right.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Donaldjr1969... Thank you for the update. Good to hear cylinder stop on S&W X-Frame .500 has a stout spring----approximating press test for the Redhawk and Super Redhawk. However, if the cylinder stop of the X-Frame utilizes the same oscillation geometry as classic S&Ws, the Smith stop still may be weaker at locking the cylinder under recoil.

I find the X-Frame .500 S&W more pleasurable to shoot than John Linebaugh's great Rugers in .500 Linebaugh, in no small part thanks to much greater weight, the big Dan Wesson grip-to-bore-axis conformation, and the muzzle brake. If I lived in griz country, I would consider the .500 S&W in 4 or 5 inch, with big meatball downloaded. As I tend to prefer my own leather, I would think hard on holstering this field piece, so as to not throw my back out of joint.

Feets... Your "squib" load with Super Redhawk .454 Casull, 36 or whatever grains of H110 behind a 240, fizzling to a stop in the bore... You are to be commended for acting immediately to sleuth the cause. Versus firing another round on top of the stuck slug.

Time to take a few measurements, I think. Clean the chambers and measure the exit holes with a dial or digital caliper. If you don't have a caliper, wiggle a bullet in the exit holes----the bearing surface of a .451"-.452" bullet should be a slip fit; bullet should not wiggle.

Next, close the cylinder and measure the cylinder/barrel gap with feeler gauges. Gap should not exceed .003-inch. If cylinder gap measures .006" or more, you have gaposis for the high pressure .454 round, which Dick Casull designed with a tight gap for proper burn and velocity. Particularly if your revolver combines loose chamber exits with excessive cylinder gap----and an excessive forcing cone----pressure leakage could stall ignition of the slow ball powder, sticking a bullet in the bore.

If these conditions exist, and you don't seek remedy from Ruger, load book and shoot full house with .454 brass. Then load .45 Colt brass with manual-listed loads for "Ruger or T/C only."
David Bradshaw

 

[David Bradshaw]

Strangely, despite having heard much praise, I have not fired a BFR. Does it use the Pachmayr grip made for the Super Blackhawk? And, chambered for artillery shells, is the BFR popular in Alaska?
David Bradshaw

 

[David Bradshaw]

gibson... On the BFR, can't imagine apologizing for a good gun. I've heard some 'smiths I know speak respectfully of the BFR. Perhaps because it looks like a Ruger and borrows the transfer bar, folks thought, Why not have the Ruger? Or, perhaps folk associate the BFR with the big, goofy Desert Eagle automatic by the same manufacturer, which gained more ground in Hollywood than hunters would ever accord it on the trail.

Sig Himmelmann brought his Seville and El Dorado single actions to IHMSA silhouette, where they worked on the firing line. When he split the sheets with a partner on Long Island, the partner kept the Abilene, which then was purchased by Mossberg. Himmelmann had a shadowy business model and, among other things, did not pay agreed royalties for the transfer bar to Sturm, Ruger. It's hard to pitch a machine shop like a tent. I got the impression Sig had x-ray eyes and a blueprint mind, could walk into a plant and absorb process in detail. Then walk out and do it. Himmelmann's Seville got him publicity on the firing line. He got his notoriety doing the border shift. Word I got----and I have no verification----Himmelmann's service in WW II was clandestine, and made him untouchable.
David Bradshaw

 

[David Bradshaw]

Wonder who casts the 17-4 BFR frame? The alleged bulged chamber caused by an overdose of fast powder, to which you refer, could indeed happen inconsequence to a severe pressure spike. Like the Karate Kid attacking a stack of boards, or Muhammad Ali visiting his opponent's chin with a left jab. Or, how a .22-250 punches through steel, while the .45-70 bounces off. (And yet the .22-250 blows up on meat, while the .45-70 plows through.) Sounds like BFR quietly goes about building strong revolvers.

Does, or did, Taurus make a Raging Rhino .500 S&W. And is every kid with a paper route shooting one?

Do I correctly presume that the BFR .454 Casull and .500 S&W have 5-shot cylinders?
David Bradshaw

 

[Donaldjr1969]

Does, or did, Taurus make a Raging Rhino .500 S&W.

David Bradshaw

They did make the Raging Bull 500 for a short while. However, it had a SAAMI length cylinder if I recall and many of those heavy bullets such as the 700g hardcast were simply too long to be used in the shorter cylinder. So it was discontinued some years ago.

One of my cousin's had one and even with that so-called recoil reducing grip, it tore some skin off the web of his hands. Of course, how was his hold on it? Oh well, I told him we have to get together and shoot my Smith. I bet he will find the grip far more pleasant.

 

[sbyrd]

Thanks for al the input guys I just got a burris 2x7 posi-lock scope and am going to try some factory .45 colt and .454 cusull loads and see how they shoot. After backing the load down i've had no double fires just have to get this thing to shoot a good group at 25yds. would be happy with a 2'' group but I ca'nt even get it to stay on the paper going to try some .45 colt cowboy loads and see if it will group wit them.

Scott

 

[sbyrd]

Any thoughts?
Scott

 

[David Bradshaw]

sbyrd... as the SRH CYLINDER FLOAT problem has been solved, the challenge remains to discern whether inaccuracy is due to revolver, or shooter. To that end, this topic merges with "A Good Gunsmith."

Since you already shoot other handguns well, apply the same technique to your Super Redhawk. Relax grip, load revolver----as you said----with .45 Colt. Sight and squeeze as you would a .22 handgun. Your Burris 2-7x should help, not hinder, good grouping.

Ruger's indoor 100 yard range (NH) was dug up years ago to make room for the deep sand moat, concrete island, hammer-forging machines. "Testing" at 15 yards, or thereabouts, does not tell you much about the accuracy potential of a magnum revolver. That you are happy with 2" groups @ 25 yds., puts you in the perfectly reasonable category of customers. That still translates by straightedge to 8" @ 100 yards----not especially tight.

The ram silhouette is shot at 220 yards, and measures 12-inches back-to-belly. I have shot many Redhawks which group 4-5" @ 100 yds. Yesterday, in a very light rain, my early-production Redhawk 5-1/2" put five Hornady 240 grain .44 magnums into 12" at 200 yards. (Elevation=38-clicks.) That group could not be fired by choking the gun to death.

Shoot your .22 LR handgun from a rest; then shoot your SRH with the same grip, the same rest, not fighting the gun at all. If, indeed, your SRH .454 cannot print 2" groups @ 25 yds., there is a mechanical explanation... and time to call customer service.
David Bradshaw

 

[sbyrd]

Thank you Mr. Bradshaw that is something I would never of thought of and don't get me wrong I plan on gettin a one hole group at 50yrds in the near future :lol: