NEED HELP PLEASE DOUBLE FIRE .454 SRH (RANGE REPORT)

[stantheman86]

Check Youtube, lots of videos of S&W .500's "doubling", even "tripling".

It's dangerous and it's not cool, as much as some of the idiots in the videos like to think it is with video titles like "revolver machine gun" etc.

 

[sbyrd]

ya it's not cool made me mess my shorts (well allmost) but it did scare the hell out of me I never had that happen before it was a real shock

 

[GP100man]

I suggest 12# hammer & a 10# in the GPs & suggest shimmin hammer/trigger for a more consistent pull weights & hammer strikes.

Triggershimms.com is a good co. besides being a member here Lance offers kits just for DA Rugers !

 

[Heywatchthis]

flatgate showed me the light, so to speak.

My last two Rugers I worked on had either stock or an extra power Wolff spring.
I smoothed and polished other parts and now I know I have a more positive ignition along with the faster lock time. All with a 3# trigger.

 

[bigboredad]

I'd give Ruger a call and tell them some hack was in there and they will probably send one right out and I'm pretty sure it would be real close to the factory weight

 

[sbyrd]

I have a wolf 12# hammer spring and 10# trigger reset spring comeing

 

[RugerForMe]

I did look at a few videos and have to say WOW. Still having a hard time believing this. :?

But this is something I would have to experience first hand. Or see in really slow motion.

And I'm a revolver Nut & I've put 1000's super hot loads down range over the years. Have had primers blow out, bullets only go 1/2 down the barrel, etc etc. But never a double.

There is an awful lot going on to make it fire twice with one pull of the trigger.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

I did look at a few videos and have to say WOW. Still having a hard time believing this. :?

But this is something I would have to experience first hand. Or see in really slow motion.

And I'm a revolver Nut & I've put 1000's super hot loads down range over the years. Have had primers blow out, bullets only go 1/2 down the barrel, etc etc. But never a double.

There is an awful lot going on to make it fire twice with one pull of the trigger.

S&W Engineer and 500 S&W designer shooting one handed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q2joba9pbZw&lr=1

In this case, the trigger almost resets. Watch the recoil carry the trigger away from the trigger finger. The rubber and fat in the palm get compressed. That happens as the tigger finger is continuing to apply pressure. The trigger pulls away from the finger, then the finger catches back up and presses the trigger the rest of the way back. Any weakness in the wrist there and the trigger would have reset.

Also note the safety cord attached to the trigger guard.

 

[sbyrd]

Put 12# hammer spring that s4s4u sent me in. I don't know what # it was when I got it but 12#s feels ALOT heavier :shock: my trigger pull is still a crisp 3#s also put on a peep I got from sixshot it's great i'm going to the range thurs. will let you know how it does i'm only going to load one round at a time until i'm sure it's fixed.

Scott

 

[RugerForMe]

OK I see. So it's actually an unintentional double pull do to the recoil.

That recoil would be the reason I sold my .500 S&W. Even with reduced recoil loads it was a bear. And My hand would ache for days after shooting it.

Do NOT have that problem with the .454C Alaskan

 

[sbyrd]

OK I see. So it's actually an unintentional double pull do to the recoil.

That recoil would be the reason I sold my .500 S&W. Even with reduced recoil loads it was a bear. And My hand would ache for days after shooting it.

Do have that problem with the .454C Alaskan

I have a SRH not the Alaskan but it has the GP style grips I havn't put the houge tamer on yet my 240 gr. loads hurt my 300gr. loads really hurt but i'll never get rid of it it's the target grey 7.5in. and i'm in love with this pistol.

Scott

 

[RugerForMe]

Sorry my proof reading skills are lacking.

"Do NOT have that problem with the .454C Alaskan."

 

[sbyrd]

OK here goes went to the range yesterday I put 12# wolf hammer spring in it as many of you know I was getting alot of double fires the good news is I fired 30 rnds. through it double fired on me on the last shot it was my fault my hand was hurtin me and I had a lose grip on gun. The bad news is I could'nt get a group to save my life I put one of sixshots peep sights on it thinkin I might shoot better with it. I think its my reloads i'm shooting hornady 240 gr. xtp mag. brand new WW cases cci 400 S.R primers 38 gr. H110 max is 38.2 gr. cases trimmed to same length 1.380 O.A.L 1.765 with a stiff roll crimp everything is right on I have hornady electronic scale I trickle it in to 38 gr. these are very uniform loads @ 25 yds. I was all over with some touching then three or four that would make the group 8" sometimes bigger I was shooting off a bench with sand bags nothing touching the barrel just my hands and the trigger gaurd on the bags felt solid. AM I TO HOT?? with that load I have a muzzle velosity of 2000 fps!! do I need to reduce it, do I need a heavier bullet, different bullet, I plan on useing it for short range deer or elk would like to be shooting 100 yrds. comfortable. Any help info anything you can think of I would be very thankfull.

Thank You Scott

 

[David Bradshaw]

I just wrote a detailed reply to your "cylinder float" problem. apparently lost as I tried to save the message before sending it. The confusing directions for "save" made it impossible to send what I wrote. I have no copy. Perhaps the editor can retrieve it.
David Bradshaw

 

[David Bradshaw]

Twice I have written detailed explanations of "cylinder float." Twice they are not posted. To put it country simple: replace 1) mainspring, 2) rebound spring, and 3) cylinder stop spring. Use factory new parts or equal strength replacements. If the revolver is correct, the cylinder stop will keep the fired chamber indexed through recoil, even with a loose hold.

It is dangerous for a magnum revolver to "double," let along "triple," etc. I am surprised that your rocks & dynamite loads don't blank the rifle primer into the firing pin hole. Primer extrusion will seize the cylinder. We had blanking with factory experimental ammo in the prototype .357 Maximums, which had Super Blackhawk mainsprings; Bill Ruger, Jr. made up heavier coils, which stopped the blanking, even with severe pressure experimental ammo from Remington and Federal. But blanking is a whole nother problem than cylinder float, although a light mainspring can cause both.

I would not allow someone to "push test" the hammer on a handgun of mine. The valid test for safe engagement is: 1) cock the unloaded revolver; 2) squeeze trigger like you're taking a baby's pulse; 3) at trigger break, trigger sweeps rearward. If the trigger kicks forward, you have a fugitive trigger/hammer engagement. New springs do not correct fugitive engagement.
David Bradshaw

 

[David Bradshaw]

Start practice by dry firing minimum of ten "shots." Next, .45 Colt loads at a distance you can see your hits. Follow with a few shots of hunting loads, but not necessarily each practice. Heavy loads impose nerve fatigue----and muscle tremor, as cannon shells require a firm grip.

Record elevation clicks for each load and distance. Dry fire does not hurt a Ruger.

David Bradshaw

 

[David Bradshaw]

sbyrd... Reread your problem on doubling with .454 SRH. You correctly identify a light mainspring as responsible for "light primer indent," or misfire. In addition, you note a condition I call "cylinder float," evident when the firing pin strikes two or more times for one pull of the trigger. The revolver must fire and the cylinder stop (or bolt) must drop out of its cylinder notch (stop notch)----thereby unlocking the cylinder----in order for the firing pin to strike adjacent to the first indent.

Three things can cause misfire with a transfer bar Ruger: 1) Misfire due to light hammer fall; 2) Misfire due to a short transfer bar, which prevents full firing pin protrusion; 3) Misfire due to fugitive trigger job, evident when trigger kicks forward at hammer fall. As trigger kicks forward, transfer bar drops, preventing hammer blow to firing pin. (When a gorilla pushes forward on the cocked hammer to "test" engagement, he performs a fugitive trigger job.)

Cylinder float can happen in the Ruger when, despite a light mainspring, the cartridge fires. The light spring fails to hold the hammer down. The hammer bounces back, which unlocks the cylinder. Bullet torque in the right hand twist rotates frame counterclockwise, while inertia holds cylinder where it is. The hammer falls, and the firing pin strikes anywhere to the left of the fired primer. It may strike the adjacent primer and fire the round, in which case the bullet crudely lines up with the bore and exits.
David Bradshaw

 

[sbyrd]

thank you for you info I put a heavier main spring in seems to have fixed it.
Scott

 

[Donaldjr1969]

The doubling can be caused by your grip loosening. If your grip relaxes enough (not much needed in a 454 Casull or 500 S&W), the piece recoils away from your trigger finger, allowing the trigger to reset. Then it bounces off the ball of your hand, driving the trigger into your trigger finger, getting you your bonus round.

You have seen that personally, haven't you, Jeff??

It has happened to me with my 500 S&W...because of my own mistake. I was using a very light grip on it to try to eliminate any trigger slap. I can use a very light grip with my 44 Mag SRH, Jeff's single actions (obviously) as well as his S&W M28. So I got a bit careless. Guess what? BOOM BOOM!!! As if hearing S&W 500 report is not startling enough for the unprepared, 2 rapid reports really gets a WTF look. However, it never happened again as I changed my grip. FWIW, I was shooting with Magtech 325g (full power, not their light loadings) factory rounds. The Hornady 500g loads and the Winchester 400g Platinum Tips did not double on me.

If one's hands are sweaty, this can happen even easier since sweaty palms will allow the grip to slide in the hand.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Donaldjr1969... I would have liked to see your S&W .500 double! Such rapid fire might work to your advantage in a tent with Ole Griz. With cylinder float on a .500 Smith held in one hand, it might empty the gun!

I first experienced cylinder float----with and without doubling----on a Model 29 in the late 1970s. After which I observed it at a couple of IHMSA silhouette matches. The cause differs mechanically from the same problem on the SRH. The Redhawk and SRH have a stiff cylinder stop spring. The S&W M-29 (don't have a .500 handy to check) has a soft stop spring. As the big bore S&W recoils upward, inertia holds the light stop down, unlocking the cylinder. The Smith also has an ocillation feature which probably enables the stop to be kicked be the cylinder notch.

If the X-Frame inherited the traditional S&W cylinder stop, the cure may be difficult.
David Bradshaw