Just An Old Shotgun

[Wyandot Jim]

Well Guys,

I lied. This isn't just an old Damascus Barreled shotgun. It belonged to my Grandfather who was a poor farmer in Mid. Ohio. No elect or indoor plumbing is the way my Dad grew up during the depression.

Well I don't know the whole story about this old Twice Barrel, but I will tell you what I do know.

I can't tell you the year or the manufacturer because the Manufacturers name leads me to nowhere. I do know it is a CHEAP import from South America from the early 1900s. If you are poor farmer you don't buy Charles Dayley just to put meat on the table. That is what the rich town folks did.

My grandfather hunted with it and my Dad did also.

Now along comes Wywndot Jim ready to go put meat on the table. OK they were only squirrels but they were ferocious Ohio Tree Rats. :lol: This was in 1953 and I was 10 at the time. After lots of fried squirrels, that my Mother hated to cook because they looked just like a RAT DAAAA. The BIG problem began after squirrel season was over and it was time to go hunt Rabbits and Pheasants. Problem being I was to little to carry this heavy twice barrel all day long with my dad and granddad. So Gramps bought me a Iver Johnson 20 ga. single for $15. Now I could go hunt with them and didn't have to be the DOG. Being the Dog is when you go with Gramps and Dad but don't have a gun. I gave the ole 20 to my Grandson wen he turned 10. A whole nother story and it is still in the family as the SxS.

Anyway the SxS went to the closet because Dad and Gramps had those new fangled pumpits and SxS with no hammers and I had my 20. The old gun did come out of the closet around 1979 so Son could shoot some rabbets for stew when he was 10.

So This old twice barrel has been shot and put meat on the table by Gramps, Dad, Me, Son and when Grandson gets hear he will follow the family tradition.

So there you have a little history about the gun.

Now today I took it off the gun rack and decided to take it apart and clean and lube it. No remember it probably hasn't been apart since the 30-s-40s if ever.

Well it brought back quite a few memories and a few tears doing it.

Now that it is all cleaned and oiled, I'm going to take it and shoot it in a CAS match next weekend. Got some black powder and target loads for it.

Anyway that is my story about an old shotgun

Jim
The old Twice Barrel that I wouldn't take anything for. :wink:

Notice that this ole gun was carried so much that it wore off the cheap checkering and into the wood. Carrying it in the field is with the right hand on the forearm.

The other side

 

[Lee Martin]

Old = character. Nice double.

 

[Lefty SRH]

Black powder ONLY loads, very nice piece....

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Black powder ONLY loads, very nice piece....

Just to keep the record straight. Those ole Damascus barrels are a lot tougher than most think. BP only is an OLD WIVES tale. That gun shot smokless for 50-60 years that I know of. I don't know if it ever shot BP. Just not Hi-power loads.
By the way High brass came from HOT BP loads. Brass needed to go up the paper hull more to keep the paper hull from burning up. Not needed in smokless.
Thanks for your comment on that ole shooter
Jim

 

[sceva]

Jim;

I have my Great Grandfathers old belgium double barrel. It accounted for a lot of game in the Mechanicsburg, Ohio area in it's day. I also have my grandfathers Win Mod 97 that I have taken a number of pheasants with myself.

These old guns aren't worth a lot of money but I value them more than my own collection. Everything else would go before these.

 

[Kevin]

Neat gun with nice character and a good history.

 

[deserttrans]

That is a great ole two banger and story.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Thanks for the story, Jim. I'll bet there are a whole lot of us with similar tales to tell.

I, too, have an old "mule ear" double with "twist" barrels. It's a Hopkins & Allen "Forehand" 16-gauge, and isn't even in as nice condition as yours. It's so loose, I have never shot it. It belonged to my great grandfather.

Also have my grandfather's Winchester Model 97 in 16-gauge. Its finish is long gone for the most part, but it's still pretty tight and I have shot it quite a bit.

Both these guns came from rural Missouri and Iowa, and I'd hate to think how much game they have accounted for over the years.

Thanks for the reminder.

:) :) :)

 

[rugnelli]

Legacy gun... very cool.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Jim

Very nice. Just a word of caution about the old Damascus barrels. Yes, some of the high quality Damascus barrels were just as strong or stronger than some of the early fluid steel barrels, when they were first made and first proofed. However there is no way of knowing what hidden pockets of rust may have developed over the decades and been slowly chewing away unseen at the welds.

In addition we are talking about the high quality Damascus barrels, not necessarily the barrels of an inexpensive gun.

Dunno if you have read this, but I offer it as the best essay I have come across regarding composition barrels and their long term strength.

http://www.doublegunshop.com/gunther1.htm

Bottom line for me is, not knowing what rust may have been eating away unseen at any spot on the hundreds of feet of welds in a Damascus gun, I would err on the side of caution and restrict any shooting of them to Black Powder. Unless you actually know what pressure the barrels were proofed to, you really do not know if light target smokeless loads will exceed what the barrels were proofed for when they were brand new and rust free. What pressure they will withstand today is anybody's guess.

Just a word of caution.

 

[Badger Matt]

Nice old gun with plenty of family history. Thanks for the pics. I just love the way guns age; gracefully and slowly...with stories behind every faded finish and nick in the wood.

 

[cellar701]

Nice! Old family guns don't get any sweeter than that.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Hey D J ,
Thanks again.
I had read that article a while back. Yea I will only shoot BP in it. more fun anyway. My Pard loads 55gr 3F Goex and 1oz. shot for me so will try those. A pretty light BP load, but good enough for what we do.
Take care,
Jim

Thanks to all the rest of you for your replies.

 

[doccash]

Jim: CAS is a step back in time and with that old 'twice barrel carbine' it will be a quantum leap. Enjoy. Dr.C

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Kinda in line w/ Driftwood's thoughts, I'd want to keep pressures WAY down. Somewhere a figure of 6-8kpsi sticks in my head as being "about average" for BP. Someone who knows more about it can verify if that's a good or bad figure.

A few months ago I was perusing some of the British double makers' sites, and something came up that I found interesting. Dunno if anyone in the States does this, but several shops over there take old Damascus barrels and reline them w/ modern steel liners. There are a couple of ways they do it, and it's really rather expensive, but allows the owners of old, classic pieces to continue to shoot them safely w/ modern ammo. They have to be reproofed when this mod is done, and the proof house specs what pressure they rate the gun safe for (it appears to vary depending on how it was relined.)

Kinda interesting for someone who wants to keep some history "alive" and has plenty of "toy money" lying about.

Rick C

 

[americal]

AWESOME :!: :!: FAMILY GUN CHANGES EVERYTHING :arrow: Like NOT FOR SALE----------------

 

[T.A. WORKMAN]

Sweet ole Mule Ear!!! :)
Thanks for sharing.
Terry

 

[Mike Armstrong]

Jim, what makes you think this gun is from South America?

My GUESS would be that it is Belgian. You can tell by pulling off the forend and looking on the bottom of the barrels and the top of the reciever (the "inside" or "water table") for proof marks. A Belgian gun of this vintage will have a crown over the letters ELG.

South America wasn't much of a gun exporter in those days like they are today.

Any "makers" name or brand name on this old guy?

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Jim, what makes you think this gun is from South America?

My GUESS would be that it is Belgian. You can tell by pulling off the forend and looking on the bottom of the barrels and the top of the reciever (the "inside" or "water table") for proof marks. A Belgian gun of this vintage will have a crown over the letters ELG.

South America wasn't much of a gun exporter in those days like they are today.
Any "makers" name or brand name on this old guy?[/quo

Thanks so much. It has ELG with an oval aroud the letters.
It is marked W. Richards on the side plates. Along time ago I took it to a gun shop that should have known about it and they said probably from SA
After a little search on the net you are 100% correct. Shame on me for never checking.
Thanks,
Jim

 

[Mike Armstrong]

Jim, the "W. Richards" label was used by several mail order firms for inexpensive shotguns. Some, like yours, were made in Belgium. I think that some were made in the US, with or without Belgian-sourced barrels.

Belgian barrels were probably used for the majority of double shotguns in the late 19th and early 20th centuries, because the Belgians specialized in "laminated" steel barrels, which we usually now call "Damascus." Other names are "laminated," "twist" and others.

MANY double gun makers, big and small, sourced Belgian barrels, including inexpensive "hardware store" guns like yours, and Parker, Remington, L.C. Smith, Ithaca, Winchester, and Colt. Belgian were the best, if you wanted laminated steel. British and German makers often used them as well; it is common to find Birmingham, and occasionally London, made Greeners, Scotts, etc. with Belgian barrels. German makers like J. P. Sauer and Sons used them a great deal as well.

You can find out more about laminated steel and your shotgun by doing searches on www.doublegunshop.com/BBS. The brand name is thought to be an attempt to get buyers to associate the gun with a very respected British maker, but how many American farmers would know anything about British "carriage trade" guns? More likely it just sounded good.

I'll look in my old turn-of-the-century (19th) Wards catalogs and see if it was advertised by them.

We had an old Belgian hammer "Damascus" double when I was a kid. My father always said, "This gun didn't win the West, but it sure made it safe for hens!" And farmers, which is what most folks were.

 

[Mike Armstrong]

In the 1895 Wards Catalog I found a slightly fancier gun of the same brand--same setup with a little engraving and a nickeled receiver. This "deluxe" W. Richards sold for---$9.00. Yours would have been a buck and a half cheaper.

It your is like the one in the catalog, the right barrel would be choked (probably full) and the left would be cylinder bore (no choke) so you could shoot solid ball out of it.

This was a very common arrangement back in the day so you could hunt birds and big game with one gun (slugs were not common yet). My great grandfather's 10 ga. Remington 1889 hammer double is set up this way.

 

[Tensaw]

Great story, Jim. Thanks for sharing!

 

[kentdep]

WJ,

That sure is a cool old scattergun. I like it. Thanks for posting the picture.

Jay

 

[GLASSMAN]

Thanks guys,
I learned a nice bit with these posts.