Inferior firearms vs function and reliability

[Heliman]

Let me say upfront that I am a Ruger firearms fan, otherwise why would I be signed up on the website?
That being said, I am getting confused regarding the actual quality and reliability of supposed inferior firearms. In this case, I am speaking of Rock Island Armory 1911 handguns. First of all,
they are much less expensive then our Rugers, S&Ws, Kimbers, Springfields, etc. Secondly they shoot and function every bit as well as our favorite "superior" brands. My eyes have been opened to this fact just recently with the recent purchase of 2 RIA 1911 pistols. Both have exceeded my expectations to the point of rethinking future purchases. One is a Mil-spec 1911A1 45 auto. The second is a 1911A1 Rock Ultra FS in 10mm.
I reviewed and posted remarks about the 45 elsewhere in this forum. The 10mm is a recent purchase which has been shot by me and others the last couple of days.

The positives:
100% reliable with mild to +P ammo including FMJ, Lead, and JHP. A little over 100 rounds fired.
Accuracy is very good. Shoots to point of aim consistently. Very comfortable to shoot. I really like the sights, especially the fiber optic front sight.

The only negative to me was getting hit in the forehead by ejected brass a couple of times.

Yesterday, I was shooting at about 10 yards off hand, both braced and free hand. Results of some shots on the target below.


My conclusion is that the RIA performed better for me than the same configuration in my previously owned SR1911, Kimber, Colt Delta Elite, and other 1911 platforms I have owned or shot. Not only is the RIA a bargain, but in my opinion equal to or superior to those mentioned.

This of course is just my opinion. :wink:

Dave

 

[Snake45]

I'm not surprised. RIAs are made by Armscor in the Philippines, and they might be the largest producer of 1911s in the world at this time (under various brand names). They have a very good reputation.

As to 1911 accuracy, you never know how one's gonna shoot until you shoot it. When I started shooting them almost 50 years ago, 2" groups at 25 yards were considered pretty darn accurate for everything except NRA Bullseye guns; most shot more in the 3-4" range. Today just about 1911 writeup you see in the mags has 2" and sub-2" groups, regardless of barrel length or price point.

The most accurate 1911 I've ever shot is one I put together from a (investment cast) Fed Ord frame, a WWII Ithaca slide, and a used WWII surplus barrel a neighbor gave me. I fitted it with an oversize barrel bushing and finished it with a bunch of leftover and "junk" parts and damned if that stupid gun won't shoot cloverleafs or near cloverleafs all day long! :shock:

 

[jgt]

It is the luck of the draw today for any firearm you buy. I have a lightweight commander SR1911 and ATI subcompact officers. Both .45 acp. The ATI locked up tight as a drum the first time I tried to cycle a round through it. I was using ball Winchester white box ammo. I didn't know if it is the magazine, slide lock or a combination of things. I decided to try to educate myself on what is going on and have learned a lot since that day. One thing I believe is Armscore parts may be a mix of well fitting and not so well fitting parts. Once one knows what they are doing it is sometimes just a matter of fluff and buff, fine tune, and replacement of parts as the softer ones wear. To someone depending on a gunsmith, it may be to their advantage to buy the Ruger. If you are someone that can buy the correct tools and use them, there is something to be said for the Armscor line of guns available. I decided to keep mine and use it as a learning experience. The Ruger, to me, was worth what I paid for it. I believe I can rely on it to shoot when I need it to.
By the way, change the angle on the face of the ejector and it will stop the brass in the face problem. Good luck.

 

[hittman]

I must be the only person on the planet who had bad luck with the RIA 1911s.

Luckily they were cheap enough I didn’t take a beating on them.

 

[dakota1911]

Maybe Biden will let Norinco sell in the USA again and you will see nicely made 1911s cheaper than RIAs.

 

[Heliman]

Just want to make it clear, my experience is based on the 10mm in the 1911 platform. The comparison is based on MY experience. I have owned or shot about every moderate priced 1911 produced in 10mm. Every one operated fine until you start shooting +P ammo through them. The Ruger would fail to eject or feed and the safety would engage along with the slide stop. Now, my friends SR1911 that he currently owns runs really well with all manner of ammo. However, this is his second one, the first being a lemon. I owned several different Kimbers and every one of them had failure to feed or eject issues. Worst of all was the Colt Delta Elite. The Colt doesn't have a fully supported chamber and I experienced case head separation with +P SAAMI ammunition. The point is, that the RIA had no issues out of the box no matter what ammo was used. That has to mean something..... I am just saying that from my limited experience, :roll: , I was pleased and surprised. Now, it could be said that mine is the exception to the rule, but that was my experience. As a side note, I have experience with many 10mm chambered pistols. The only other platform that has been pretty flawless has be my Sig P220 SAO Elite. Again, this is just my opinion and I fully understand others opinions as well.

Dave

 

[Mike J]

When I bought my SR 1911 8 or 9 years ago I wanted to learn more about 1911's in general so I started looking around reading up on different offerings. At that time I saw many people disparaging the Armscor guns. The past few years most of what I have seen online & what I have been told by people that own them is positive. A guy at work that prefers 1911's for carry likes them very much. I prefer to buy American but that is because of my own preference. Not because I believe foreign manufactured goods are defective.

 

[LAH]

I had one, no complaints.

 

[buckeyeshooter]

Maybe Biden will let Norinco sell in the USA again and you will see nicely made 1911s cheaper than RIAs.

I have a Norinco 1911, I bought it new for $249.99 and the thing feeds and shoots as well as any of my Colts including my Gold Cup National Match, I have a fried who bought a Rock Island for Wild Bunch and he has been very happy with it.

 

[DGW1949]

Owner of two RIA 1911A1-FS .45ACP pistols here. Both worked first time-every time and both shot to POA right out of the box...Given some of the issues that I've had with genuine Colts over the years, I'm going to agree with Heliman on this....I mean really, what actually constitutes an "inferior gun" anyway?

DGW

 

[the_leper_colony]

Owner of two RIA 1911A1-FS .45ACP pistols here. Both worked first time-every time and both shot to POA right out of the box...Given some of the issues that I've had with genuine Colts over the years, I'm going to agree with Heliman on this....I mean really, what actually constitutes an "inferior gun" anyway?

DGW

I've had a similar experience with a Taurus PT-99 (Beretta 92 variant, produced in Brazil). Some folks prefer Beretta 92s; I actually prefer the Taurus, because of the frame-mounted safety. Is the Taurus an "inferior gun"? I've read that the fit & finish on the Beretta 92s is noticeably better... but I've never heard of a Taurus slide breaking (which reportedly occurred with at least one factory Beretta, during US military trials).

Might just be that "inferior" depends on what your personal priorities are!

 

[GunnyGene]

The 1911 platform fits in the category of "mature technology". That means that unless a manufacturer departs from that for some reason - make it (subjectively) 'better', cut's corners on materials, poor QA, etc. - there is no reason why one brand should be any better (or worse) than another.

 

[Hvymax]

Maybe Biden will let Norinco sell in the USA again and you will see nicely made 1911s cheaper than RIAs.

I wish they would bring back Bolo Mausers.

 

[rugerguy]

the wording of "inferior " is used wrongly here, just cause they are cheaper, most I have seen, Armscor, and including the aforementioned "Norinco" were "inexpensive" BUT NOT inferior, by any means, except price/cost.............

 

[Mike J]

I wish this thread hadn't popped back up. PSA had Taylors & co. (Armscor) 10 mm 1911's on sale shortly before Christmas for under $400 & then a week or so later they were $430. I didn't bite because I am trying to be a responsible adult & I really don't need one. Seeing this just makes me think I might have made the wrong decision letting the deal go by.

 

[Fox Mike]

My Charles Daly, that I purchased long ago, was an Armscor build and I have shot many many rounds through it without a hic-up.

 

[dhains1963]

There are some guns that don't have longevity and poor quality control, yet inexpensive guns in the right hands can be more effective than expensive guns in an inferior shooters hand.

I used to buy the less expensive guns and ended up buying the one I really wanted in the first place later. This ended up costing me extra dollars. I liked the sp101 and kimber k6s, but I ended up buying a taurus 605. Well....I now have the sp101 and lost about $150-$200 dollars on the deal.

It wasn't that much, but that could have gone toward ammo. Live and learn. I agree that if your happy with your gun, don't worry about what others say. Save your money and enjoy your purchase.

 

[Paul B]

Any experience I have had with an RIA 1911 is very very thin, like one gun for maybe a bit over an hour. The experience was not good. I'll get back to this in a moment.

I've carried a 1911 of one sort or another for more years that I care to count. Evene where it was literally impossible to get a perming (San Francisco) there was a 1911 tucked into my swaistband. My current carry gun is an almost strictly stock Colt Combat Commander. I say almost because I throated the feed ramp and barrel entry for more reliable feeding with SWV and WC cast bullets I use for practice. I also replaced the grip safety with one for a beavertail tang as the original literally dug holes in the web of my hand.

On the deal with the RIA, fist it was not my gun. I was packing up at the range when a group od japanese business men and a coiuple of Americans showed up. Apparently they were going to allow the Japanese men to shoot real guns, something they can't do at home. I kindd of stuck around to watch a bit and while the short session with .22s went by quickly, they men wanted to shoot the "big stuff". Biggest they had was that RIA 1911 and that's when the trouble started. That was the jammingest 1911 I've ever seen. Well I decided to ask if I could help and when I shot the gun it would jam after two or three rounds. Magazine bad? I don't know. The action was pretty rough and I'm thinking it would that 2 to 3 hundred rounds if not more to loosen that gun up a bit. I even tried a magazine for my Commander and it jammed. I'm thinking the feed ramp and throat were rougher that a cob as other that that the gun seemed OK. We finished the shoot with the .45 using my Commander, his magazines and ammo. No jams. There some very wide grins after we were through shooting from those gentlemen. I gave the two guys who were doing this my phone number and told them that if they ever wanted to do this again to give me a shout. Told them I could add a few .44 mags to the fun.
Paul B,

 

[noahmercy]

My past experience says that often the inexpensive imports are simply not as durable as domestically-produced high quality firearms. Often the tolerances aren't held as tight, and I have seen issues with uneven heat treating. An example is some of the imported 1911s from the 1990s. Most were fine, but I ran across a couple that wouldn't group for doodly. Install beavertail safeties, more than one had very shallow heat treating, and some had voids and inclusions in the frame steel. As a range officer, I saw two go "full auto" because the sear wore excessively due to the metal being soft. Also seen manual safeties that wouldn't stay engaged due to the same lack of proper hardening. I never encountered those issues working on 1911s made by other American armories, even wartime production guns. I always felt that if I just wanted a range gun, the affordable imports would be fine, but I would carry a "better" or "best" quality domestic gun for personal protection.

That is not to say that today's reasonably-priced import firearms will suffer from any of the same issues, and I am not bashing on any of them....just relaying my past experience.

Strangely, reliability and accuracy don't seem to know a price point. There are $100 Phoenix Arms rimfires that function 100% even when filthy, and shoot well enough to knock down bowling pins at 25 yards. There are also $1,000 1911s that must be fed a very particular diet and kept immaculate and properly lubed to get through one magazine without jamming, and might hit that same pin three out of five times.

 

[H Richard]

I have had a couple of the RIA's, a 9mm and a 45, both the "Compact" model's. (Think Colt Officers Mod size). The 45 was the first, acquired in 2006, and at that time was a basic model. I had to add the beavertail grip safety, and better sights., as well as a trigger job. It was a great carry pistol, and accuracy was near equal to my Springfield Armory , but not quite as accurate as my Colt Gold Cup (custom accuracy enhanced). It was solid, and shot many hundreds of rounds without any problems.


The 9mm, acquired in 2013, came fully equipped with good sights, beavertail, and trigger. I did only a light touch up to the trigger. I used this gun to develop my 9mm loads, and it digested everything well, but around about 1500+ rounds some battering showed up in the full length guide rod, and the reverse plug it rides in. It only took a little stoning to fix. My opinion is the frames are cast, and the metal is somewhat softer than either my Colt or Springfield.

Both guns shot very well, and if you plan on just routine use would serve you well. If you plan to heavy use you might want to consider another brand with a little higher grade of "forged" steel.

 

[MikeJinVT]

https://www.classicfirearms.com/sds-duty-1911-45-stainless-w-enhanced-features/
I just picked up one of these Turkish 1911’s. The Turks are turning out an awful lot of firearms of all descriptions lately and the price point makes them very interesting. I would have preferred a Ruger 1911 but this will do.

My initial impression of the fit and finish was that it rivals any of the better American brands. Everything was very tight and stiff. Due to the weather, I was only able to get it out and put a few magazines through it. Function was great except for one style of older handload that won’t reliably function in my Sig 1911 either. I cannot comment on accuracy since it was 30 degrees and I was just banging at the steel plate. I think that this will be a great pistol.

 

[arcticruger]

I bought this RIA 1911 new in 2008. Was totally blown away how well it shot and handled, not one hiccup. After all these years, and thousands of rounds, it's still one of my all around favorites. BTW, Colt is still my 1911 of choice.

 

[Ride1949]

I bought my RIA 1911-A1 FS in 2013. Never a hiccup, eats everything I feed it, and accuracy was everything you'd expect from one of the more expensive offerings. I made two changes on it. Replaced the ful length guide rod with a GI guide rod and Wolf spring (I got tired of crawling around on the shop floor looking for the plug I just launched.) And switched out the ambi safety for a GI safety. I'd definitely buy another one if I get the itch for another 1911.

 

[Springer2]

Most of the 1911s I had were good. Strangely the worst one was a Colt 1980s series Gold Cup that I bought new. No reflection on Colt but that just seemed to be a "built on Monday" gun.

 

[The Preacher]

I had an Auto Ordinance 1911 after Kahr began making them. It was a "GI" Government model with parkerized finish. Had about $380 into it. Fit and finish were "okay". Worked like a trooper, never a hitch. Factory loads/lead reloads. Really liked it but It disappeared a few years ago when I fell to the siren call of a Colt new series 70 in Stainless. I wanted a real Colt 1911. And yep, I paid for the real deal and the horsey... But I love it, great fit and finish, it's a real work of art. Shoots great without a hitch... But is it really that much better than my old AO? Not really...But I have my Colt 1911.....

The Preacher

 

[pogomo]

Let me say upfront that I am a Ruger firearms fan, otherwise why would I be signed up on the website?
That being said, I am getting confused regarding the actual quality and reliability of supposed inferior firearms. In this case, I am speaking of Rock Island Armory 1911 handguns. First of all,
they are much less expensive then our Rugers, S&Ws, Kimbers, Springfields, etc. Secondly they shoot and function every bit as well as our favorite "superior" brands. My eyes have been opened to this fact just recently with the recent purchase of 2 RIA 1911 pistols. Both have exceeded my expectations to the point of rethinking future purchases. One is a Mil-spec 1911A1 45 auto. The second is a 1911A1 Rock Ultra FS in 10mm.
I reviewed and posted remarks about the 45 elsewhere in this forum. The 10mm is a recent purchase which has been shot by me and others the last couple of days.

The positives:
100% reliable with mild to +P ammo including FMJ, Lead, and JHP. A little over 100 rounds fired.
Accuracy is very good. Shoots to point of aim consistently. Very comfortable to shoot. I really like the sights, especially the fiber optic front sight.

The only negative to me was getting hit in the forehead by ejected brass a couple of times.

Yesterday, I was shooting at about 10 yards off hand, both braced and free hand. Results of some shots on the target below.


My conclusion is that the RIA performed better for me than the same configuration in my previously owned SR1911, Kimber, Colt Delta Elite, and other 1911 platforms I have owned or shot. Not only is the RIA a bargain, but in my opinion equal to or superior to those mentioned.

This of course is just my opinion.

Dave

I have stopped to look more and more at various listings and auctions for RIA 1911's. Mostly due to the price. I own several colts, kimbers, in 45 and a couple of springfields in 9mm. All of mine are older purchases. At new cost it would really put a dent in my goody bag to buy one. I have lusted after a colt in 38super for several years. But current prices have me at least wanting to try the cheaper offerings. I can't find one from the big 3 for less than a 2k asking price for a plain jane. I hope anyone else who's purchased a Rock Island will comment.

 

[BBarn]

My RIA in 45 Auto with a few thousand rounds through it has been very good so far, better than several more expensive 1911s I've owned.

 

[DGW1949]

I presently own two of the newer RIA 1911A1-FS pistols in .45ACP Caliber (no billboard on the slide). Both have fired in excess of 500 Rds of 230-FMJ ammo without a single mishap....Disclaimer: I've yet to even load either of the 8-Rd (ACT) Mags that they came with. All of the firing I've done has been with USGI Military, SA Inc, or surplus M1927 Argentine mags. Not saying that there's anything wrong with ACT Mags, it's just that I'm not a fan of 8-Rd 1911 mags in general.

 

[rugerguy]

When we had our fist shop back in the 1970s, I had a 'Norinco' 1911 and it shot as well , and better at times than ANY 1911 we had, or shot or others shot and had....and it cost $300 with tax, transfer and shipping...it fed and shot anything you put in it.....don;t knock "simplicity" ( yes them darn chinese copied everything, and still do)

 

[Buckeye Bill]

I have the RIA 1911 SF in 40S&w and I am completely satisfied. Very accurate and has not failed in over 1000 rounds of factory rounds and reloads. Cleanup has become a familiar process and I keep the required paper clips in a bag on my bench. I want a 9mm and 45. I have one Colt an a couple of Springfields that are very nice as well. I also have a Dan Wesson Vigil 9mm Commander that is perfect but I can’t see dropping that much coin for two more. Also, in December purchased a Girsan commander in 45 motivated by price. After some minor tinkering, and magazine testing, it is completely dependable. I have owned two SR 1911’s and was generally satisfied. Front sight broke on one and the sect was fine. Sold it foolishly. I prefer blued guns so the SR line is limited.

Bill