How about a Mini-1 (Mini M-1 Garand)? (Mini-Johnson?)

[Terry T]

We have a Mini-14, how about a Mini-1 (M1 Garand)?
Sad to say but here in Ca., we are about to all but outlaw removable box mag. semi-auto center fire rifles. We can keep them if we register them as 'assault' rifles.
Fixed box mag rifles holding up to 10 rounds will be permitted so the M-1 Garand and the SKS (with normal stocks) will get a pass.

So....my proposal is a mini M-1 Garand in .223. Would need a 10 round fixed box magazine loaded with either en-block clips like the Garand or, more likely, with the easily available .223 stripper clips like the SKS. Might need an easy way to limit the box magazine to 5 rounds for hunting with some kind of 'plug' or block.
Receiver would have to be redesigned to take the stripper clips but beyond that, I'm not sure it would require much in the way of changes.

Now, I'm not trying to start a political discussion here - we all know the arguments - but trying to suggest some creative solutions. :shock:
Terry T

 

[Stump Buster]

"We" are not about to outlaw semi-autos with detachable magazines, the liberal leftists are (Sorry but it is hard to keep this from getting political). I would not want a manufacturer to have to tool up for a new gun just to appease *$&^#%@! gun grabbing legislators. I hate the idea of a single citizen bowing down to the ridiculous legislation that might be heading our way and trying to come up with feel good "alternatives", but...

The idea in and of itself of a miniature M1 sounds like a fun little concept rifle though!!!

 

[Terry T]

We could even call it the California Model!

No, it's not "we" - 37M folks in Ca. and we really don't all think the same but enough 'city folks' are scared and the politicians think they 'have to do something'. Unfortunately, laws don't change evil hearts. Some days, I wish it were that easy (to change hearts).
Terry T

 

[96/44]

Politics aside, a 2/3 scale M1 would be pretty neat. I can't see it being a big enough seller to warrant a mfg designing and building one, but you never know.

 

[TBear77]

Terry T,

I'd been thinking along the same lines; except using the mini-30 with a retuned gas system. Had photoshopped an example using a 20-round magazine. Here's that example.



Even though I don't live in California, I'd still be interestedin this idea; even without the removable magazine.

Ted

 

[JohnFLand]

Add this guide (looks like it will be available early next year): http://www.perfectunion.com/vb/ruger-mini-14-mini-30/96512-any-interest-mini-14-stripper-guide.html

Pin a 10 rd mag in from inside the receiver (so that the receiver must be disassembled to remove the mag).

Should work for both Mini-14 and Mini-30.

 

[Snake45]

I have a vague recollection of Mas Ayoob telling us (circa 1989) during the "first wave" of calls for an "assault weapon" ban, it was rumored that Ruger had in development an internal magazine version of the Mini-14. I recall this being mentioned in conjunction with Bill Ruger's support for a ban on hi-cap magazines. Wish I could remember more details--perhaps Ayoob wrote about this too at the time but I don't feel like going back to the late '80s magazines to see. :?

Back to the topic: A scaled-down .223 M1 wouldn't appeal to me, but might to some. But I can see a market for a Mini-14 with an internal 10-round magazine and a stripper clip guide built into the receiver a la M14. One glitch in that plan is that optics are now so popular (red dots and so forth), and a conventionally mounted optic would preclude the use of stipper clips, so you'd have to finagle the rounds into the mag one at a time. Or go to forward-mounted "scout"-style optics.

Interesting concept, though. :? :? :?

 

[DGW1949]

My thoughts;
It would take too much money and too many skills to duplicate the "Garand" gas system these days.
The Mini-14 gas system has accuracy draw backs....but...it is fairly cheap to produce, and has proven to be very reliable. So I suspect that that is what we'll continue to see on all variations of the the "Mini" from here on out.
As for an en-bloc clip, it would take even more money and skill to make that work.....so naw, we aint ever going to see that particular design being resurected again either....by anyone.
Assuming it had the ability to be loaded via stipper-clip, I'd much rather have an internal magazine than a conventional (replaceable) mag. That said though....from looking at how far a 10 Rd mag hangs out of the bottom of my own Mini, I don't believe that 10-Rds would be doable within the present sizing of it's receiver 'n stock. Just guessing, I'd reckon that it'd be more like 6 or 8...which would mean even less in a Mini-30.
Snake brought up another point....meaning, where's the scope-guys gonna mount their scope?....I'd reckon one could use a rail like the new "tactical" models has (which perty-much ruins the idea of a scaled-down "Garand")...perhaps off to the side like the M1D (which has it's own draw backs)...or?....dunno.

And besides all that.... with high-cap mags and tactical stuff being all the rage, who but me (and a few others) would buy the thing these days?.....I suspect, not many.

DGW

 

[Terry T]

Thanks for all the interest guys - I guess what I'm really asking for is a fixed box Mini-14, just sounded more 'romantic' to call it a Mini-1 for an M-1 Garand.

I don't think it would be all that hard to cast a new receiver with stripper clip guides. I could be wrong on that - Yes, I know, I've been wrong once or twice before.
Yes, a 10 rd. box mag. on a Mini-14 could hang down a bit.

Wonder about a rotary magazine with a side loading port for the stripper clips like the WW II Johnson? In other words, a Mini-Johnson? Would solve a couple of the mentioned issues like scope mount and larger but unhandy magazine. :shock: Ruger is big on rotary magazines.

Just dream'n. But then, that's how solutions are developed - folks sitting around tossing ideas around.

Yes, all the market rage right now is "black" rifles with large cap. detachable mags. Problem that I tried to explain is that they are not only fast becoming 'politically IN-correct" but in some states, becoming illegal for the ordinary citizen to own. So....besides 'throw the bums out (of office - way to go Colorado!) - we need some creative solutions to keep going.
Terry T

 

[DGW1949]

In the mean time, an add-on, receiver-mounted, stripper clip guide is certrainly workable for the existing Mini-14 platform. In fact, it's been done before. As I recall, Mansen sold one for a while....and even more recently, there has been a guy on the "perfectunion forum" that has been working on prototypes for another. Both took (or takes) the common M-16 stripper.

Edited to add video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oyiX8QaPu54

DGW

 

[dfletcher]

Thanks for all the interest guys - I guess what I'm really asking for is a fixed box Mini-14, just sounded more 'romantic' to call it a Mini-1 for an M-1 Garand.

Terry T

I've no doubt someone in CA will come up with a workaround if the bill is signed into law. The "Bullet Button" and "Radlock" are present ways around the law, of course they'll be gone or changed too.

I have an FN 49 that as a practical matter has a fixed magazine and top load using stripper clips. I also have a DSA FAL and with a fixed mag side loading is OK. No one in a "free state" would tolerate it, but we're stuck with it.

 

[Snake45]

Wonder about a rotary magazine with a side loading port for the stripper clips like the WW II Johnson?
Terry T

What a shame that Johnsons are now rare, megabuck collector items. And to think, before GCA '68 they could be bought mail-order for less than a C-note.

 

[pisgah]

Wonder about a rotary magazine with a side loading port for the stripper clips like the WW II Johnson?
Terry T

What a shame that Johnsons are now rare, megabuck collector items. And to think, before GCA '68 they could be bought mail-order for less than a C-note.

I wouldn't mind a "mini-Garand", but I don't know how much I'd brag over having a "mini-Johnson". :lol:

 

[toysoldier]

I've been pondering the feasibility of a pistol-caliber carbine, on a pump action. This would also be "California-friendly".

I'd like to see a Browning BPS action shrunk down to an appropriate size for .45acp, .357SIG, and 9mm. 16" barrel, full-length tubular magazine. This would be a light, slim carbine at home in a saddle scabbard, patrol car, or at bedside. And it would look a whole lot better than the ugly .357 Timberwolf.

 

[DGW1949]

I've been pondering the feasibility of a pistol-caliber carbine, on a pump action. This would also be "California-friendly".

I'd like to see a Browning BPS action shrunk down to an appropriate size for .45acp, .357SIG, and 9mm. 16" barrel, full-length tubular magazine. This would be a light, slim carbine at home in a saddle scabbard, patrol car, or at bedside. And it would look a whole lot better than the ugly .357 Timberwolf.

Somebody (Taurus maybe?) was marketing a pump carbine for the CAS crowd for a while (and might still do). As I recall, it was loosely based on an old Colt design and kinda-sorta looked like a scaled-down Win '97 pump SG.

DGW

 

[toysoldier]

Somebody (Taurus maybe?) was marketing a pump carbine for the CAS crowd for a while (and might still do). As I recall, it was loosely based on an old Colt design and kinda-sorta looked like a scaled-down Win '97 pump SG.

DGW

Reproductions of the less-than-successful Colt design have been available for some years, but they have all the flaws of the original, especially feeding problems. It's a heavy, complex, expensive gun, with a rifle-length barrel chambered for revolver cartridges.

 

[RJ556]

It sure would be nice if Ruger picked up the "Timber Wolf" carbine, in stainless, and in 357 Maximum! I can't imagine a better light carbine for deer and hogs. RJ

 

[Terry T]

I've seen pump action (and lever action) tube magazine rifles in revolver cartridges but not (yet) in automatic pistol cartridges.
The engineers on this forum would have to chime in about any inherent design problems using the rimless cartridges in a tube magazine.

Folks have been marketing reproductions of the old Colt Lighting design for the Cowboy Action shooters but that design would have a few issues for today's serious home defense. (Not that it's not useable - just takes another level of expertise). Brother in law has one of Beretta's version. Kept jamming it until we got the hang of loading (and read and re-read the manual ).

By the way, I like my Timberwolf in .357 mag.

I'll guess too that Remington might bring back their very nice 7615. :shock:
Terry T

 

[Snake45]

The engineers on this forum would have to chime in about any inherent design problems using the rimless cartridges in a tube magazine.

Terry T

I'm no engineer but having tuned and timed a couple pump shotguns, I'd think it would be way more difficult to run a tube magazine using rimless cases. Maybe some kind of pawl or detent or gizmo involving the extractor groove, I dunno. But I'd think that solving the problem would be more complicated and expensive than the marketplace would justify. :? :? :?

 

[DGW1949]

The engineers on this forum would have to chime in about any inherent design problems using the rimless cartridges in a tube magazine.

Terry T

I'm no engineer but having tuned and timed a couple pump shotguns, I'd think it would be way more difficult to run a tube magazine using rimless cases. Maybe some kind of pawl or detent or gizmo involving the extractor groove, I dunno. But I'd think that solving the problem would be more complicated and expensive than the marketplace would justify. :? :? :?

I saw an old levergun in 45ACP one time, but I don't remember who made it.....coulda been Italian or Brazillian (maybe?).
At any rate, the one I saw had so many feed/eject problems that I was left to wonder "why bother?".....meaning that;
I have an older (Interarms) Rossi-'92 Carbine in 45LC that runs like a Swiss watch, and had a newer version from EMF (in .357) that did the same.
And what's a 45ACP, .357 Sig, or 10MM gonna do that a 45LC, .357, or .41 Mag can't do better?.....the answer is....nothing, except allow for more rounds in X-amount of space.
Well heck....my old .45LC Rossi holds 11 rds of 255Grn ammo in the mag and one in the chamber. Try as I might, I can't visualize a single task which I'd put a pistol-caliber carbine to that could be better handled "if the gun would just hold a couple of more rounds".
There's also plenty of Marlins and Winchesters to pick from....in several proven (handgun) calibers, different barrel lengths, configurations, etc. etc.....and if ya just gotta have a Ruger, they made one at one time too...some are a bit pricier than others, but all are available if one looks.

Yeah, yeah....I know, a levergun aint a pump gun.....but still, I think you are right....meaning that there won't ever be enough market to justify the cost of developing a tube-fed, pistol-caliber rifle...be it a pump, levergun, or whatever.
And as far as that goes, Ruger has already tried 4 different handgun-caliber rifles and all 4 died due to lack of sales.

It don't take no engineer to know all that...just sayin'.

DGW