Guadalupe River flooding

Contender,
Both of these disasters are devastating both in the lives lost and the aftermath for the survivors. As an outsider watching the reports I believe that the NC flood was much worse for the survivors. Getting relief supplies to those in need was much harder in your area due to the destroyed roads and the mountainous area.
Both are horrible and it will take a long time to recover.
As I stated in another post Wife and I both loved the area that was destroyed in the flood, and we will never see it as it was when we spent so much time on the river and lake.
We took our last drive on the beautiful River Road in our Vette with the top-down last Oct.
 
People not familiar with weather in that part of Texas cannot comprehend how quickly water can build up and flood an area. Living in San Antonio years ago I remember being amazed, at first, at the concrete culverts built to handle the volume of water during heavy thunderstorms. These structures were huge, and at first I thought that they had to be massively overbuilt since it seemed incomprehensible that these dry channels could ever fill with water. Then I observed them full to almost the top during a heavy but brief storm and it made a believer out of me. That first year we lost a cat who drowned while apparently hunting in one of these structures where the water rose so quickly that she was unable to scramble up the sloped side to escape in time.
So this is a well known phenomenon in Texas and natives should have been aware?
 
I will take NOTHING away from the tragedy in Texas & the huge loss of life and the still very large number of the missing.
But it pizzed me off watching the ABC news last night with David Muir,, and he claimed it was "history's biggest flood loss in decades." And he's said this two nights in a row,, well before the Texas loss was near 100.
How short is his memory?
Helene in my area took 108 lives less than a year ago.
Sadly,, the flood in Texas will surpass that number,, (hopefully not by much,) but still, once again,, we here in WNC have been forgotten by many.

Locally, we have groups that despite our own needs here,, haven't forgotten how we were helped out by people from all over,,including Texans. Many of our non-profits & churches are sending relief supplies to Texas because we KNOW how it is there.

Yes,, yes,, I know it's ABC & all, and especially the media. But even they should realize what a stupid remark that was.

Having witnessed the huge loss here,, the damage, & all, allows me a good window into what they have had happen. Plus,, I was stationed at Ft. Hood, and know that area,, along with it's history of floods.

It's heartbreaking. This hillbilly has spent a lot of time talking to the Lord about all this. Let's hope the death toll stops soon & more are alive & accounted for.
The families of all those lost deserve our prayers.
The last babbling from the news this morning was the flood which is an annual event was caused by "Global Warming" related by the two Trump administrations FEMA who withheld funds for warning sirens. In my recollection, the whole country used to have Nuclear Warning Sirens that were tested quarterly. Where did they go?
 
Jim, you assessment of things is pretty good. Our infrastructure of roads, bridges, & homes lost has been tremendous. By some estimates,, a couple of the roads in my area,, will not be back to normal 2-lane blacktops until 2027,,, maybe. There are still many places that work has not even started on these roads. One of which is actually a Federal highway,, US 64.
And yes,, the way things were here, the terrain, made access to thousands of people very laborious, along with the loss of basic services like power, water & sewer. In fact,, a major river in Buncombe County,, the French Broad,, still has dangerous levels of toxins in it to where swimming, wading etc are not advised. They think it's due to many small septic systems that have been damaged or such to where raw sewage is seeping in in many places.
Getting relief supplies to many places required helicopters, That was the only way to get stuff to people.

But I fully agree that BOTH of these events were truly horrible, and devastating to thousands of people. The lives lost, the lives altered, and the loss of so many homes.

I just heard another story about here & Helene I had not heard before.
A cemetery had part of it washed away. Apparently 14 buried caskets & remains were washed away. I think 7 or 9 have been found,, and only (2) of the deceased have been identified. They are working on the identification of the other remains/caskets they have found. But several are still missing. One gentleman has video of a casket floating down the river,, and by all appearances it was his mothers casket with her remains inside. They haven't found that one yet. And of course,, the headstones & such are also damaged or gone.

My heart goes out to those in Texas suffering. Because I have witnessed such devastation here, and how it affects so much.
People want to "Blame" somebody. From Trump to the local officials. They want to know why an early warning system wasn't in place or used or whatever. They want immediate alerts & such to their phones etc.

My response to much of this is that God is still in control, and no matter what us mere humans try,, things can & will happen beyond our imagination. Yes,, maybe an early warning system would have helped some people. But how many people turn off their phones at night? How many don't have signal in many places? How many will IGNORE warning sirens? And lest we forget,, how many would complain or try to SUE if an early warning system had been in place, used, and they evacuated? Only to find it was unnecessary, and stuff got looted or whatever? Kinda the "cry wolf" attitude.

I look around here and see the destruction, the lives lost, the total alteration of the topography, and know that I've witnessed history. Growing up here,, I could look at the area,, and see places,, that in the past looked differently. I could see where boulders larger than 1 or 2 houses USED to sit,, and were moved by an earthquake or a flood long before I was born. And I see the mountains here carved out by water,, knowing that at one time,, this place looked very differently.

Sadly,, us mere humans are just a small part of the very big picture we call the world. And we can all study history & see the terrible destruction by hurricanes, floods, winds, etc over the centuries, that altered life in so many places around the globe.
As a caring & compassionate human,, it's heartbreaking to see such events happen. Here & elsewhere. But I can't blame anybody or entity for what God decides to cause.
No matter what we humans try,, God is still a lot more powerful.
 
Jim, you assessment of things is pretty good. Our infrastructure of roads, bridges, & homes lost has been tremendous. By some estimates,, a couple of the roads in my area,, will not be back to normal 2-lane blacktops until 2027,,, maybe. There are still many places that work has not even started on these roads. One of which is actually a Federal highway,, US 64.
When things happen, some curse a god ("who hears every sparrow fall") that can allow such a thing to happen. Others remember their readings of job, and say, okay, i did what i could, thanks for your help, what have i learned from this and what can i do, moving forward, to help better?
 
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I never curse God. A human has no understanding of what God thinks of why things happen.
Garth Brooks has a song; "Unanswered Prayers" and it sorta relates to this attitude.

When I lost a baby,, I didn't curse God. I prayed, and a thought came to mind.
God had a new mother in Heaven who wasn't able to raise her child on earth. He chose to take my son & allow the new angel enjoy my son. It gave me a lot of peace in my heart.
 
So this is a well known phenomenon in Texas and natives should have been aware?
Yes, anyone living or staying near a river in Texas should have been aware of the risk. This is not blaming the people who died, just stating the obvious. That the girls' camp did not have a weather radio to keep them advised in the event of something like this massive storm was grossly incompetent for those who owned and operated that camp.

Where I live now there are siren warnings for tornado alerts, but not for other weather related emergencies. We had 6.5 inches of rain last night within about 16 hours, but because of my inexpensive weather radio, as well as warnings on my smart phone, I knew what was coming and prepared accordingly. The flash flood risk along the Guadalupe River in Texas is nothing new, and I find it almost incomprehensible that so many people were caught unaware.
 
It will be especially hard for families who never find the remains of their missing relative. And worse for those families when the remains show up years later emerging from the earth and mud. Every home should have a weather emergency radio.
 
I cannot see why any rivers like that don't have automatic warning devices installed. A pole in the river with sensors at various heights that if the water hits a sensor it sends a signal to the office that is supposed to do the warning. Then if it hits the next sensor in X number of seconds or minutes another signal is sent. If that is a short amount of time, the system could be programmed to automatically send out the alerts to the population by several means to include the sirens. All of that can be automated, sensors and transmitters powered by long lasting batteries with solar recharging. I do realize that the sirens would have to be installed but after this horrific incident, whoever is in charge should get it done as quickly as possible. IIRC, there are people who have said they will come up with/authorize the funding to get it done.

Personally I could live with some false alarms rather than have no alarms at all.
 
Somebody or something is monitoring it, else they couldnt report the height of the surge. Its getting that message out to people ignorant, or uncaring, of the warning system. The "cheap" cost of lifesaving weatheralert radios, in no-cell-service areas, has bern repeatedly mentioned here and on the news sources. I havent one, i dont live in floodable area, but may get one since sometimes i not only drive my rig thru such zones, i have parked overnight in them. I am, however, nearly ocd about paying attention to the local weather via several sources. i am responsible for nobody else outside the cab, so am not paranoid about it.

Adit; One county, iirc kerr or tomgreen, has vowed to have sirens by next year; that is hundreds of square miles of coverage needed.
 
Just read in The Guardian where the camp owner (who died rescuing some of the 700 girls who survived) got the alert call at 01:15 but dident do anything until 02:30, which blows up the story that cell coverage would have saved the 20+ girls lost at that site.
I have always detested incompleat (incompetent) reportage without sufficient definition of the reporter's speculations.
 
I cannot see why any rivers like that don't have automatic warning devices installed. A pole in the river with sensors at various heights that if the water hits a sensor it sends a signal to the office that is supposed to do the warning. Then if it hits the next sensor in X number of seconds or minutes another signal is sent. If that is a short amount of time, the system could be programmed to automatically send out the alerts to the population by several means to include the sirens.
I think you are very confused on what actually happened.
 
I am not decrying or anything else about what did or did not happen in the flood or what precautions are/were in place. You all are correct I was not there so I have to go by what I read, hear or watch on a lot of different medias (print, TV, internet, radio, etc.) and the gist of it, to me, was that either there were adequate warnings given or that warnings were given but people did not receive them or warnings were given and people disregarded them or the warnings were inadequate.

I was just speculating that if areas are known to have dangerous conditions fairly regularly, that some system should be put in place that could/would warn people at any time of day or night of an impending problem. That's why I thought of rising river sensors that could trigger an alarm without human involvement if needed. Where I grew up, we had fire sirens to alert the volunteer fire dept firemen that they were needed (or that some other emergency or danger (storms, etc.) were impending). The sirens were all over the place to the point where anyone in a 3 square mile area could clearly hear them and react to them. Even in these circumstances, it still had to be triggered by a human, it was not automatic.

Granted, in my example, the 3 sq mile probably would not have been enough in this circumstance but I hope you can realize what I was trying to convey.

I you all conclude that what I posted was so far off base as to be laughable, let me know and I will complete delete my posts and offer my apologies for being so nearsighted.
 
I am not decrying or anything else about what did or did not happen in the flood or what precautions are/were in place. You all are correct I was not there so I have to go by what I read, hear or watch on a lot of different medias (print, TV, internet, radio, etc.) and the gist of it, to me, was that either there were adequate warnings given or that warnings were given but people did not receive them or warnings were given and people disregarded them or the warnings were inadequate.
"All i know is what i read in the papers"
Will rogers on why he dident trust/believe rumour (except for it's comedy value)
 
"All i know is what i read in the papers"
Will rogers on why he dident trust/believe rumour (except for it's comedy value)
I understand that, that's why I read/watch/listen to different sources of information to see what slant any particular source is using in their reports. Doing that enough can/will/should give a person enough information to know what NOT to accept and to glean enough information from the other sources to try to make an informed decision.
 
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I understand that, that's why I read/watch/listen to different sources of information to see what slant any particular source is using in their reports. Doing that enough can/will/should give a person enough information to know what NOT to accept and to glean enough information from the other sources to try to make an informed decision.
Unfortunately, compilating data from many sources confuses a lot of people, thus their sycophantic super-glued allegiance to one news source.
 
The area was warned of potential flooding hours before. Warnings as such are not uncommon. The water rose 30' in a matter of minutes and there was a wall of water traveling 20-30 MPH. The camp flooded at 4 AM. What bureaucracy what have saved those kids?
 
I find it almost beyond belief that the children's camp did not have a simple weather alert radio that would have awakened the staff when the NOAA weather warnings were issued several hours before the flooding. I have one of these radios which cost only a few dollars, has built in battery backup so that even in a power failure can still receive the signal, and when it goes off it is loud enough to wake the dead. I live in the Midwest and have this radio primarily for tornado warnings which well might be issued while I am asleep. Yes it is a PITA to be awoken by a "tornado watch" alert for areas a few counties away from me, but better to tolerate that and not be at risk for hearing the warnings that affect me. Every home should have one of these radios in the bedroom of the adults.
 
I felt the same when the news first hit. How could "they" not have a radio on at all times, especially during stormy conditions. Now that the combined toll of dead and missing is approaching 300 or more, I wonder how all those people also could be caught so seemingly unaware. If there is a severe thunderstorm in the area the AM and FM radio stations here alert to it's location and path, several times over and over, until it is out of the area. Having driven through southern TX to Mexico, I know that there are some remote areas with nothing more than a road and scrub brush where you can't get much at all on a radio, but this river area isn't that far from civilization. It just doesn't add up 🤷‍♂️
 
We can all "Monday morning quarterback" this tragedy to death. We can say this might have helped, or why didn't they have XYZ etc all we want.

And I speak from a very similar tragedy experience here,, with Helene destroying so much here and in the same manner. Just a few minutes.

I have no doubt that many things might have assisted in the reduction of lives lost.

But I also know how hard it is to get PEOPLE to react to any sort of warning, no matter how well it's stressed or whatever.

Just a few days ago,, a 29 yr old woman fell to her death at Bradley Falls in Polk County NC. She had IGNORED the warning signs posted everywhere. She was in a RESTRICTED area. Basically she, like so many people think it can't happen to them.

We can build a safety bubble all around us & never do anything, have any active lives, or whatever. Yet,,I guarantee tragedy can & will find a way to get past whatever safety stuff we mere humans TRY & create.

Sirens may have warned folks,, but how many would have immediately reacted in a manner to avoid what happened? Especially if the sirens went off every time it rained a little & the waters rose some but w/o any real effect? People become complacent, and get the "Cry Wolf" attitude. Then disaster strikes.

Locally,, we've had a very similar flood happen to what Helene did to us. It happened in 1916. In 2016,, there was a documentary done for the 100 yr anniversary of it. Very eye opening, and spot on about what COULD happen again. It did with Helene. PBS broadcast that documentary recently, and we watched it. It was like watching what happened recently. EXCEPT for the fact that a lot of stuff got rebuilt a whole lot quicker because we didn't have the government or FEMA or whatever else to deal with. PEOPLE got off their butts & went to work fixing things.
But the same type flooding happened here all over again. We lost 107 people to the flooding of Helene and it's mudslides. And to be honest,, they don't want to admit it,, but the number may be a little higher,, due to the vagrant, unknown homeless people camped along the rivers who's bodies got beat into pieces by the huge trees & boulders & debris. I've had a few LEO's discuss it with me, off the record with stuff they have personally seen.
Tragedy? ABSOLUTELY!!!
Preventable? Some of it. But people fail to heed warnings, and people ignore things all the time.

My point to this post is that we can try & point fingers or make accusations, or whatever. But it will not prevent other tragedies because people fail to learn from history.

So stop trying to place blame. Have compassion for those families who lost so much. And try & make sure we all LEARN from the past.
 
If payment is demanded, the owner who died saving 700 girls but was too late to save 20, will not have paid for it sufficiently, in too many small minds. He made a mistake, and some will never light a candle for him. Under him, of a surety.
 
I find it almost beyond belief that the children's camp did not have a simple weather alert radio that would have awakened the staff when the NOAA weather warnings were issued several hours before the flooding. I have one of these radios which cost only a few dollars, has built in battery backup so that even in a power failure can still receive the signal, and when it goes off it is loud enough to wake the dead. I live in the Midwest and have this radio primarily for tornado warnings which well might be issued while I am asleep. Yes it is a PITA to be awoken by a "tornado watch" alert for areas a few counties away from me, but better to tolerate that and not be at risk for hearing the warnings that affect me. Every home should have one of these radios in the bedroom of the adults.
It's my understanding the camp owner was warned 45 minutes prior.
 
I have seen more than one picture of a vehicle nearly completely buried.
Not only that, they are packed full of mud! Somebody's gotta dig that out to see if a body inside. A sad task I'm sure.
 

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