Form 4473

[blume357]

I'm going to ask this question here in the lounge because I think some of you stay away from the political section (rightly so) and I really don't think it is political and not really about gun control... but of course if the moderators want to move it...

So, I've bought a number of guns over the past couple of years from some of you and others on the internet all from out of state and then shipped to my local FFL where I have to fill out the 4473 form and pay them a small amount for their troubles.... But it seems because of how S.C. does their back ground check to have a concealed weapons permit there is no call in back ground check.. I just show them my S.C. Drivers License and CWP and they write all that on the form and we are done.

My question is as I understand it that form is just filed away at the FFL's unless they close down... but is any of the information, mine or just the gun's transfer, given to BATFE? Something like.... old fat white guy bought semi-auto pistol in 9mm?

 

[krw]

No

 

[one bullet]

I know these forms are reviewed by the ATF when they audit the FFL dealer. I'm not sure how often they are audited but I think it's done every few years or so.

 

[bobski]

10 years on file at local shop, then boxed. all closed ffl's files are transfered to the batf archives in n.y state....and lost for the most part.

 

[Mobuck]

I was out of the FFL business before the acceptance of a CCW permit rather than an actual call in was allowed. MO doesn't use that "loophole" either so everything I buy gets a called in 4473.
If there's no call in, your info stays with the transferring dealer's files until that dealer turns his records in unless there's a "search" conducted on that particular firearm at which time, the info will go to BATFE. This is the way I've been told it works by out of state dealers.
AS THE PROPAGANDA PLAINLY STATES, BATFE DOES NOT RETAIN ANY OF THE INFO ON THE 4473. If you believe this, I have some lake frontage in eastern Colorado to sell.

 

[Dan in MI]

I was a dealer many years ago. Unless there was a change, the 4473 is never seen by ATF unless the dealer closes. On inspections they are just making sure the dealer isn't doing it wrong.


Michigan had the CPL/CCW/CWP loophole UNTIL they made marijuana legal. At that point ATF determined being a CPL no longer qualified for bypassing the NICS check. The theory is the marijuana/drug question on the Fed form versus having a state issued marijuana card.

 

[contender]

As noted above,, the FFL keeps the 4473's in his possession unless he closes his business. However,, any time there is an audit,, the "inspectors" can & will look at any forms they choose. Quite often,, they find minor mistakes in filled out 4473's & fine the FFL for failure to get the forms properly filled out.
My FFL got audited a year or so back,, and he's a small dealer. Mostly a gunsmith,, but he does buy & sell on order, does the FoNRA transfers, & in general is a "small" dealer. The agents saw my name enough to ask about me. When he pointed out the type of firearm I mostly got, AND that I was a collector,, they went; "Oh, sixguns" and moved on. But they did find a few minor clerical errors on a few forms,, and only gave him a warning. They told him that they often find a lot more paperwork issues, and it normally costs the FFL a fine.
So, yes,, they do look at the 4473's,, as well as the log books.
And of course,, when there is a crime they are investigating,, they come in to get any info on that firearm,, and look at the books etc for similar things.

One comment by my FFL about the new 4473 that recently came out,, was that the firearm info and the buyer's info was all on the front page. He believes it so the agents can easily see the info, AND only have to make one copy of one page if they do an inspection & need the info.

 

[RoninPA]

Scott, your information when you fill out a 4473 is not given to ANYONE. Once completed the 4473 is stored by the FFL at his/her place of business.

4473's on file at an FFL CAN NOT be looked at by anyone who wants to see them. They are privileged information and even if the local PD wants/needs to look at one they must get a court order to see/copy it and only for an active investigation.

The BATFE however, can (and do) look at the 4473's during a compliance inspection (as said before) to insure that the FFL is filling out the form correctly.

A 4473 stays with the FFL for a minimum of 20 years. At the 20 year point, the FFL has the option of sending them to the BATFE Records Section in WV or they can be destroyed by the FFL. When an FFL goes out of business, all active (younger than 20 years) 4473's must be sent to the BATFE.

And yes, the BATFE does retain the information on the 4473's that get sent to the Records Section. The 4473's are now scanned into a database and the forms are then destroyed. The new 4473, makes it quicker/easier to scan since they have the buyers info (but not their signature) and the firearm info on the same page.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

In Florida and many other states you don't have to fill out anything if you are buying from and individual.

 

[protoolman]

When I was a cop, police looked at sales records any time we asked. ATF freely shared info with us or requested info also. As did FBI.

 

[blume357]

So, what does not pass my logic test is first all the information they want on me.... I understand name and address but place of birth.. race, and then if I'm hispanic or not, height weight.. etc.... I understand all the questions after that... which the answer is 'Yes', and then all 'No's' in case they figure out I'm not legally supposed to own a gun then they got me for telling a fib which probably is another crime on top of the first....

why all the questions if the information does not go anywhere?....

2nd question... if an FFL does not put this information or some of it in a computer how in the world is a LEO going to find the form for a specific gun out of hundreds or thousands even... surely they don't go through all of them.

 

[Dan in MI]

1-it’s there just in case.

2- the tracking starts with serial number. That starts at the mfr to the distributor to the dealer to the 4473

 

[Mobuck]

EVERY firearm with a serial number has "paper trail" following it. Let's say a firearm is dropped during a crime and later "found" during the investigation. The manufacturer has the SN's and where those were shipped. The distributors have the info on where the firearm went next and so on down to the last known dealer transaction. Then the dealer gets a call from BATFE asking for name and address of the buyer.
Even used guns are entered into the dealer's "bound book" of guns in/guns out so a gun traded in or transferred through a dealer gets followed all the way to the last owner. If a gun is stolen and not reported as such to the cops, that last (legal) owner may have some rather pointed questions to answer.

 

[Jeepnik]

Years ago the FFL I used had a fire. Pretty much gutted his shop. All his records went up in smoke. He actually had to prove to the BATF that the records burned. As I recall he ask the agent how he was going to prove that. So he just sent photos of the store. They left him alone after that.

 

[blume357]

It is still very odd to me that if the information (other than the firearm's serial number) does not go anywhere except in a file cabinet in the back of the gun store why they ask if I'm hispanic or not..... Y'all realize that a number of those questions asked on the 4473 can't be asked if you are applying for a job?

 

[Mobuck]

Believe it or not, there are often several people with similar name, birthdate, and such. I can only ASSume that the "genetic profile" is used to differentiate during the background check.
Way back when I first got a home computer and started using email, I discovered just how many email users had tried to use their name(same as mine) for an email address. At the time at least 6 others with same name had found that there were at least 6 other people with the same name, too. To add to the strangeness of this, there's a guy living 30 miles away who has same first and last but different middle name as me. Even using a middle initial doesn't always work and since we sometimes do business at the same places, a mailing address is added to confirm which is which.

 

[XP100]

When I closes my shop I had to send 4473's to VA. All 5 boxes of them.

 

[kmoore]

Mid 1990s, I was sent to BATF or what we call ATF for training that lasted most of 1 day. At that time they were asking for help regarding dealers. If any crime guns were showing up as sold by dealer A or B. When and how to get them to help local cops investigations.
At that time the lead agent made it very clear, time is limited to investigate a sale. He said there is a federal law/rule that I do not have the code number. They have the data for gun sales available as I recall in DC. But were they look at the data is not important. What is important the data is only for 90 days and their data base is purging that data at 91 days in the system.
Believe what you want, that agent said he was not putting his job on the line to lose it if trying to keep data longer than allowed. If you know for a fact they keep data longer against the law I am sure you could get someone willing to investigate. I am only relating to the training and what is law and what was said. He showed everyone the data he had for that day and stuff they would want to double check.
Back to the data, they look for known illegal gun dealers and buyers. Red flags pop up
on some gun sales. When they do they check further. A red flag could be a person in a city buys multiply guns of the same make/caliber and is not a dealer within a short time. Many times it is all legal and nothing further is done. Sometimes it could and has been gangs were using a person to buy them guns. Then a real full investigation starts.
Now lets go back to the 1980s, at the local cop shop the FFL dealer could sell me as many guns as I wanted to buy at a time. He told me do not buy more than 1 handgun per week or else BATF would be asking him questions.
So, thats what I know and I have not given out any secrets.
Regarding the 4473 forms, I think many stated the facts on that and how a normal police investigation is conducted when a gun is found involved in a crime. The very 1st thing is the NCIC and local check of the serial number. If not listed as stolen the gun maker is normally the next contact. Than it is a paper trail to who bought it, wholesaler, FFL dealer and citizen.

 

[Jeepnik]

It is still very odd to me that if the information (other than the firearm's serial number) does not go anywhere except in a file cabinet in the back of the gun store why they ask if I'm hispanic or not..... Y'all realize that a number of those questions asked on the 4473 can't be asked if you are applying for a job?

But you're not applying for a job. You're asking the government for permission to exercise one of your enumerated rights that can't be infringed. Wait, how does that work?

After all, I'm absolutely sure that all the information supplied for NICS is deleted after approval by the government to allow you to exercise the above Constitutionally guaranteed rights. :roll:

 

[blume357]

So from what Kmoore said ... I presume they are collecting this information from the call in for the back ground check? So, gun purchases at an FFL that don't require a background check they are not getting this information.

 

[RoninPA]

Scott, As for your last question, when doing the background check the firearm is not identified, just the person. And although the agencies (state and Federal) say they destroy the info after a set amount of days, do they? Who knows and no one there will ever say one way or the other.

And yes, in states that do not required a BGC if the person holds a carry permit, the information is only on the 4473.

Also, one reason that they can ask those questions on the 4473 is that the answers are privileged information and the information doesn't go anywhere unless it is subpoenaed or gets sent to the BATFE records section. They then scan the document into their computer system and destroy the paper copy.

If a firearm is found at the scene of a crime and there isn't anyone who can say how it got there, the investigators ask the BATFE to perform a trace.

1. The BATFE goes to the manufacturer with the make, model, serial number.
2. Manufacturer tells them who it was sold/sent to, either distributor, wholesaler, FFL, gun writer or even private party (remember the rules changed over the years)
3. BATFE asks the distributor, etc. who was it sold/sent to (FFL, etc.)
4. BATFE asks the FFL, who did they transfer this firearm to. The FFL then sends that info to the BATFE. The last trace form I got from the BATFE (6 months ago) they just wanted to know the name and address of the buyer, I did not have to send them a copy of the 4473, although I could have according to the form I received.
5. BATFE asks the buyer/transferee where is the firearm
6. If it was sold, given away, etc, the BATFE asks who did it go to
7. If a private party sale, not through a FFL, the trail stops there unless the seller knows who they sold it to. Then BATFE goes to that person and the trail continues
8. If through a FFL, then back to that FFL and continues on until the last owner is found or it dead ends

 

[lark63]

Kinda surprised no one has looked at:

Line 21 E


Well what about that.?

Every gun buyer is that pure?

 

[kmoore]

I beleive you mean 21E.
I would bet many people lie on that form in that box and others. All at their risk to arrest, not me.

 

[blume357]

21 E? which one is that, quote / print please.

 

[Dan in MI]

That's the marijuana/drug question

 

[contender]

21. e.
Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
WARNING; The use or possession of marijuana remains unlawful under Federal law regardless of whether it has been legalized or decriminalized for medical or recreational purposes in the state where you reside."

 

[radicalrod]

hey contender it's OK if you check the NON BINARY box......we won't ask and you don't need to tell.... :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[blume357]

That's what I thought it was but when I googled the form that question was in a different place.... 11e

The one I probably don't answer honestly is the one asking if you have ever renounced your U.S. citizen ship... seems like I did sort of back in '72 when the group I was a part of declared my grandmother's farm a separate nation and we were planning to declare war against the U.S. we expected to lose but were hoping to get aid from Russia and then afterwards from the U.S. That seemed how those things worked back then and still does. I was 15 years old by the way....

Of course technically the one about being convicted of a felony (could serve more than a year in prison) I may be fibbing on too... but it is considered a misdemeanor now. That is why I have a CWP in S.C. and other states... but I suspect the FBI sees it differently.... then again it could be that time back in the 90's when they thought I was the Uni-Bomber...

 

[contender]

RR,,, I will if you will!!!!!!!!