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soldernut

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
300
sturmenater said:
You are correct my lowly springfield champion is forged as for the sights I like em fixed and low no sights going to save my bacon

I think I understand what you're saying: In the heat of a life-threatening moment, the low, fixed sights will serve you as well as any other. I agree.

I don't own guns, though, just for that kind of moment. Mostly we use our handguns for target shooting and plinking. I have handguns with several different sights styles - so far they're all whatever came from the factory.

Of them all, my absolute favorites are the adjustable (windage and elevation) sights that came on my Ruger KGP141 revolver. I find the elevation adjustment particularly useful because different weights of bullets strike higher or lower than other weights. Those sights have also never caused me a moment's trouble.
 

mraywi

Single-Sixer
Joined
Mar 30, 2009
Messages
339
Location
KCMO
Kimber,made in USA.
Ed Brown,Wilson many others made in USA.
The Philipines and Brazil do not get my 1911 money!!
 

hdonlybob

Single-Sixer
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
318
Location
Brodhead, Wisconsin
It adds about 3/8" to the height of the gun. Does also add weight, but doesn't seem excessive.
Will find out soon. Supposed to go shooting this Wednesday with a friend at an indoor range....
HD :D

soldernut said:
hdonlybob said:
Good solid 1911's are still out there. Just need to be patient and keep looking.
Two weeks ago I picked up this one at a nearby Gander Mountain.
* AMT Frame
* Colt Slide
* Bo Mar top rail and target sites
* Some other interior modifications
Best part was I got them down from $500 to $418....(or $450 out the door) !!
Hoping the weather will clear off so I can shoot it next week.
I am liking it.
HD :D

That's pretty neat! I hadn't known about the Bo Mar top rail. It looks like a clean and relatively easy way to set a 1911 up to take pretty much any sight you want. Does it add a lot of weight or height to the gun?
 

Texasgunner

Single-Sixer
Joined
Feb 27, 2010
Messages
287
Location
East Texas
soldernut said:
Texasgunner said:
My $400 RIA 8)
Well, + a couple bucks for xtras

45017.jpg

Nice looking RIA!

Aside from the grips, can you tell us which RIA model you started with - and what other extras you added? Those sights don't look one bit like the "GI" style I've seen on $400 RIAs. Did the slide have to be modified to install those sights?

Started with a RIA 1911A1FS
No mods on slide, just added Novak 3 dot replacements
Also added a ambi safty & bead blasted the frame-
 

hdonlybob

Single-Sixer
Joined
Sep 18, 2002
Messages
318
Location
Brodhead, Wisconsin
UPDATE:
Went to the range today.
Don't know what else has been done to this 1911, but it is a tack driver.
Took two different types of ammo (Indoor Range, so not roundballs) and hits spot on. Not one jamb....and very comfortable to shoot....
I am happy... :D
HD..



hdonlybob said:
It adds about 3/8" to the height of the gun. Does also add weight, but doesn't seem excessive.
Will find out soon. Supposed to go shooting this Wednesday with a friend at an indoor range....
HD :D

soldernut said:
hdonlybob said:
Good solid 1911's are still out there. Just need to be patient and keep looking.
Two weeks ago I picked up this one at a nearby Gander Mountain.
* AMT Frame
* Colt Slide
* Bo Mar top rail and target sites
* Some other interior modifications
Best part was I got them down from $500 to $418....(or $450 out the door) !!
Hoping the weather will clear off so I can shoot it next week.
I am liking it.
HD :D

That's pretty neat! I hadn't known about the Bo Mar top rail. It looks like a clean and relatively easy way to set a 1911 up to take pretty much any sight you want. Does it add a lot of weight or height to the gun?
 

Rix86

Bearcat
Joined
Jan 18, 2009
Messages
72
I have an STI spartan. it's their cheapest, and it's still FANTASTIC.
 

soldernut

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
300
Okay gentlemen, I've seen "the light" WRT 1911s. It happened like this...

I bought a CZ 75B 40 Cal - with which I'm pretty darned happy. Everything was going fine until I also bought a very nice Steady Point bench rest. The idea of the rest was to get me, as much as possible, out of the equation - and see what the gun could do.

The rest allowed two things to happen:

1: I shot some amazingly tight five-shot groups. Ten yards and overlapping holes under 1" diameter. In some cases you could see that one or two bullets had passed through the same holes as others. Okay, the gun is capable of good accuracy.

2: The rest allowed me to pay a lot more attention to the trigger, and I was not happy with what I felt.

I'm not sure the correct terms to describe the trigger experience, but I'll take a stab at it.....

First there is some distance of "take-up" where you're just overcoming the resistance of the trigger return spring.

Next comes the disturbing phase. After take-up, you encounter resistance from the trigger operating against internal parts (sear & such I imagine). That phase feels somewhat long and subtly "gritty."

Worse, nowhere during that phase do I get any sense of when the hammer is going to let off.

After the hammer lets off, there's some overtravel. Not bad, but it's there.

Since the gun appears capable of great accuracy, and because there's so much else to like about it, I called CZ custom to talk about a trigger job. (Their trigger job includes a new, different hammer). Talking to one of the CZ Custom gunsmiths, and explaining what I wanted in a trigger, he told me that...

A) Their trigger job would greatly improve the gun - make it feel like an entirely different gun actually, BUT

B) The only way to get everything I wanted would be to get a 1911.

Coming from the mouth of a CZ Custom gunsmith, that carries some weight for me.

I shipped the CZ to CZ Custom for the trigger job and adjustable sights. I'm sure I'll enjoy it when it comes back, but I don't expect a 1911 trigger.

On my way home from FedEx, I stopped at my favorite local gun store. I had just one question: "What is the minimum price of entry for a match or semi-match grade 1911 with adjustable sights?"

The owner got a gleam in his eye, reached under the counter, pulled out a box, and handed me a work of find industrial art.

"Try the trigger." He suggested.

Oh. My. Gawd! This is the trigger that Snake, Rev, or Yosemite Sam described here (sorry I don't remember which).

There is a bit of take-up and then you encounter a bit of resistance. Once you do, just a squeeze more and the trigger "gives" like breaking a glass toothpick. After let-off, there's just a tad of overtravel, but not much.

I think I mentioned that the chief reason I bought the CZ was my impression of fit & finish. I remain impressed in that department, but this 1911 compares very nicely. While the CZ has a black "polycoat" finish that looks better to my eye, this 1911 is "Parkerized," whatever that means. It's a much duller, flat black.

Setting aside the Parkerized finish, fit, finish and workmanship are superb. The feed ramp and chamber throating gleam like mirrors. Looking at everything else was similarly impressive. The barrel is externally polished until it looks like chrome.

The dealer told me the entire gun is hand-fitted; hand polished. The barrel bushing is "air gapped" and sufficiently tight as to require a wrench for take-down.

The dealer suggested I compare the trigger (and anything else) to some other 1911s he had: Kimber (close but more $$), Springfield (more money but not close), S&W (more $$ and the worst of the triggers)

This magical little dandy is the Rock Island Armory "Match" model. Asking price at this dealer was $750. I've found it on-line at $644.

If I had encountered this gun when I was shopping, I may well have bought it instead of the CZ -although I'd set myself a budget of $600.

Incidentally, in my reading, it appears there are two fire control systems in use in modern 1911s; promulgated by Colt: The "70" and the "80." This Rock Island Match uses the "70" system.

This gun may not compel me to run out an buy one right away, but it has definitely taught me one thing: In semi-autos, it seems that nothing else is able to compare to the 1911's trigger.

Somebody that understands 1911s far better than I ought to write up the "exclusivity" of the 1911 trigger.

Seriously.

Few of us shopping for an auto-loader are aware of the trigger designs and trade-offs. To me, it looks like the 1911 trigger is the epitome of single-action perfection. There is no way you can build a DA/SA trigger that can match the positive feedback of the 1911.

I have only two other handguns that come close to the (really good) 1911 trigger experience.

1: It's probably not even a fair comparison. It's my Ruger KGP-141 357 Mag, fired in SA mode, after a poor man's trigger job (mostly spring changes).

2: A virtually new Ruger 22/45 .22 auto-loader. It saw it's fist firing today - focus on breaking in the barrel - little attention paid to aiming carefully. I would rate its trigger as "very nice;" nicer even that my CZ's out of the box.

Anyway, I'm going to go our on a limb here and suggest that, if you're on a quest to find the most accurate possible center-fire, auto-loader, you'd be well served to seriously consider a 1911.

Never mind that the design is "ancient." John Browning got it right - particularly in the trigger department. As far as I can tell, there's nothing else "special" about the 1911 and, in many areas, more modern designs have advantages here & there.

But, although there's nothing else "special" about the 1911 design, there is nothing "wrong" with it either.

As a bonus, there's probably no other center-fire, auto-loader design as well supported with aftermarket parts that can take it from the mundane to a truly personal gun.

Now, somebody 'splain to me why I shouldn't choose the Rock Island Match as my first 1911. ;-)
 

DGW1949

Hunter
Joined
Apr 10, 2005
Messages
3,935
Location
Dixie
Well soldernut, I have to agree.
I don't have experience with that particular model but I've been saying for the past few years that as cast-clones go, RIA's are as good as the high-dollar guns. Them folks has a good customer service dept too, and are quick to help should the need arise.

DGW
 

revhigh

Hawkeye
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
5,590
Location
PA
soldernut said:
To me, it looks like the 1911 trigger is the epitome of single-action perfection. There is no way you can build a DA/SA trigger that can match the positive feedback of the 1911.

Heh heh heh ..... TOLD YA !!!!!

Anyway, I'm going to go our on a limb here and suggest that, if you're on a quest to find the most accurate possible center-fire, auto-loader, you'd be well served to seriously consider a 1911.

Heh heh heh ..... TOLD YA !!!!!

As far as I can tell, there's nothing else "special" about the 1911

Except the caliber .....

Now, somebody 'splain to me why I shouldn't choose the Rock Island Match as my first 1911. ;-)

Can't splain that .... it's a good choice ....

Did I mention ..... I TOLD YA ????? LOL :D

REV

Welcome to the club .... hope your bank account is full ... like potato chips .... ya can't have just one .... :D

REV
 

Tam 212

Single-Sixer
Joined
Aug 16, 2010
Messages
310
Location
NE Illin'oyze
From all indications, there aren't any negatives.

Unless you have some aversion to something that isn't made in the USA.

I surmise that since you have a Czech made pistol, this won't be a problem.

Eagerly await your impressions of your new 1911. :D
 

Yosemite Sam

Hunter
Joined
Mar 18, 2002
Messages
2,113
Location
Cape Cod, MA, USA
Congrats! I think you have indeed "seen the light". :)

The only reason not to get the RIA is if you are really hung up on a strictly American brand, or a forged frame. There are Springfields available for about the same price which have forged frames made outside of the US, but they do have the Springfield name on them. If someone else's opinion of your firearm is important to you the Springfield is a more "acceptable" choice.

If, on the other hand, you want the most bang for the buck (har), I can highly and personally recommend the RIA.

BTW, that "long and subtly 'gritty'" part of the CZ pull is the dreaded "creep" or "stacking" that people complain about. If take the slide off and look into the guts as you lightly pull on the trigger you'll see all sorts of things moving around in there. I don't have the part names in front of me, but between the wishbone of the trigger bar rubbing on the sides of the frame, the post & socket arrangement on the top of the trigger itself, and all the springs and actuators, you can see lots of areas where slop or rough surfaces would impart all sorts of unpleasantness to the perceived trigger pull. That's the main reason I went to the single action only EAA Witness Match when I got my latest CZ clone.

You can also see how the simple, straight-back, not-even-rotating-a-lever trigger system of the 1911 is so easy to setup well. Funny how less complexity often improves things.

The only thing I'll add is that one should not expect a combat gun like the CZ to have a match grade trigger straight out of the box. In fact, there are very few guns that are manufactured with really great triggers, and most of them are target specific guns where prices start upwards of $1500. Even the vaunted Freedom Arms charges $100 extra for a 3# trigger job on their $2400 revolvers. The CZ is sold as a combat/duty weapon, and the trigger it has is acceptable for that role.

Congrats again. Are you going to keep the CZ, or does it need to go to fund the 1911?

-- Sam
 

Yawn

Blackhawk
Joined
Dec 4, 2010
Messages
646
All I have to say is that I doubt a year ago there would have been this much traffic on a thread for pocket 9mm's. So, ok, the LC9 will sell, but I definitely think there could be more of a market for a Ruger 1911
 

Cheesewhiz

Hunter
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
2,114
Location
Chicago, IL
soldernut said:
Now, somebody 'splain to me why I shouldn't choose the Rock Island Match as my first 1911. ;-)

I wouldn't try to talk you out of it at all, I love 1911's but it is a match grade trigger on that gun. That's why it has an even more awesome trigger than a standard/combat grade 1911.
I would hope that this is going to be a range only gun, if you end up pulling the trigger, pun intended.
Trigger pulls in the 2.5 to 3.5 lb range are light and sweet and dangerous as hell with a carry/defense gun.
BTW I have a couple or more CZ's with worked over triggers (some by me and some by CZ Custom) the triggers clean up very well, very well indeed. I also have a couple of CZ guns that have the best factory DA/SA triggers made.
 

soldernut

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
300
revhigh said:
soldernut said:
To me, it looks like the 1911 trigger is the epitome of single-action perfection. There is no way you can build a DA/SA trigger that can match the positive feedback of the 1911.

Heh heh heh ..... TOLD YA !!!!!

Anyway, I'm going to go our on a limb here and suggest that, if you're on a quest to find the most accurate possible center-fire, auto-loader, you'd be well served to seriously consider a 1911.

Heh heh heh ..... TOLD YA !!!!!

As far as I can tell, there's nothing else "special" about the 1911

Except the caliber .....

Now, somebody 'splain to me why I shouldn't choose the Rock Island Match as my first 1911. ;-)

Can't splain that .... it's a good choice ....

Did I mention ..... I TOLD YA ????? LOL :D

REV

[sn] Did I give you enough chances to say "told you so?" Don't it feel good? :)

I did that on purpose: You 1911 guys have given me scores of reasons to take seriously a platform that's a century old. You have no idea how much I appreciate that.

But I am going to challenge you on "except the caliber" - seriously.

It seems that you cannot step into any group of caliber champions without hearing that the caliber is "inherently accurate."

It's as if the laws of physics were suspended for this one, particular, magical diameter.

Pray tell, what is the scientific explantation of why a 0.45 bullet should be any more or less accurate than a 0.41, 0.43, 0.47, or even 0.357?

I don't think there is any.

What I think is going on is this:

For any number of other reasons, a caliber becomes popular. It's popularity drives the manufacture of guns for it. That may start with a single maker but, as interest/popularity grows, more and more makers get into the game.

They have to compete, so each one does his bit to optimize his guns for whatever this caliber is. In time, at least one maker produces a gun that does everything right - and eeks out the greatest (yet) accuracy for this caliber.

Competition forces the other makers to follow suit - even leapfrog each other.

Some decades down the road, this caliber starts wearing the mantle of "inherently accurate."

I would submit that's exactly what's happened to the 45, the 38, and the .22.

My hunch is that we could pit your best 45 against my 357 Mag revolver and you'd be hard pressed to make an argument for the "inherent accuracy" of the 45.

But I will concede one point: Thank John Browning for making the 45 ACP caliber one worthy of perfecting!


>Welcome to the club .... hope your bank account is full ... like potato chips .... ya can't have just one .... :D

[sn] Aw, damn! Here you have me at the threshhold of conversion, and then you kink the deal by warning me I won't be satisfied with one! :lol:

REV
 

soldernut

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
300
Tam 212 said:
From all indications, there aren't any negatives.

Unless you have some aversion to something that isn't made in the USA.

[sn] While I prefer to buy U.S. made goods, I do require that they match up. I bought the Czech CZ because I couldn't identify any U.S. gun in the same class.

As for the Rock Island, the Philippines have long been our friends, and I don't mind supporting friends of the U.S. (On Filippino friend told me his country was saddened that we chose Hawaii over them for statehood).


>I surmise that since you have a Czech made pistol, this won't be a problem.

[sn] Not at all. The Czechs got right about setting up a democratic state once the Iron Curtain fell. Subsequently, they dealt with secession much more graciously than we did.

That, and can you name a U.S. made pistol (other than 1911s), available for $550, that surpasses the fit & finish of the CZ?


Eagerly await your impressions of your new 1911. :D

[sn] Don't hold your breath. The 1911 has made it to the top of my "I want it list." I've also set aside the cash. I have a better half that can think of better ways to spend the cash. And, at the moment, she's right.
 

soldernut

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
300
Yosemite Sam said:
Congrats! I think you have indeed "seen the light". :)

[sn] Sam: In no small part because of your contributions. Thanks.

>The only reason not to get the RIA is if you are really hung up on a strictly American brand, or a forged frame. There are Springfields available for about the same price which have forged frames made outside of the US, but they do have the Springfield name on them. If someone else's opinion of your firearm is important to you the Springfield is a more "acceptable" choice.

[sn] I don't give a rat's butt what somebody else thinks of my choice. At the range where I shoot, at least half the interested parties I've met had never heard of CZ. They went away impressed, though, when I let them shoot mine.

>If, on the other hand, you want the most bang for the buck (har), I can highly and personally recommend the RIA.

[sn] Thanks. It sure looks like a winner to me.

>BTW, that "long and subtly 'gritty'" part of the CZ pull is the dreaded "creep" or "stacking" that people complain about. If take the slide off and look into the guts as you lightly pull on the trigger you'll see all sorts of things moving around in there. I don't have the part names in front of me, but between the wishbone of the trigger bar rubbing on the sides of the frame, the post & socket arrangement on the top of the trigger itself, and all the springs and actuators, you can see lots of areas where slop or rough surfaces would impart all sorts of unpleasantness to the perceived trigger pull. That's the main reason I went to the single action only EAA Witness Match when I got my latest CZ clone.

[sn] That's good to know. I hear great things about the EAA Witness line. Unfortunately, EAA has not paid the necessary bribes to the state of Kalifornika, nor kissed the necessary butts to get their fine guns on this state's roster of approved handguns.

You can also see how the simple, straight-back, not-even-rotating-a-lever trigger system of the 1911 is so easy to setup well. Funny how less complexity often improves things.

[sn] Less complexity is, I think, almost always desireable. I work in software and in that realm simple is elegant. And I think it was Mr. Kalishnikov (AK-47 inventor) that said "A thing should be made as simply as it can be - but no simpler."

The only thing I'll add is that one should not expect a combat gun like the CZ to have a match grade trigger straight out of the box. In fact, there are very few guns that are manufactured with really great triggers, and most of them are target specific guns where prices start upwards of $1500.

[sn] That sounds right to me. I've had other "duty" grade pistols with similarly long, rough trigger pulls - and got lucky once with a S&W 39 I bought used with a fabulous trigger. Maybe somebody worked it over. But it was awful in the reliability department, so I traded it off.

Off course, the 1911 started out in life as a combat pistol. I wonder if poorer triggers were the order of the day back then?


Even the vaunted Freedom Arms charges $100 extra for a 3# trigger job on their $2400 revolvers. The CZ is sold as a combat/duty weapon, and the trigger it has is acceptable for that role.

Congrats again. Are you going to keep the CZ, or does it need to go to fund the 1911?

-- Sam

I'm pretty sure I'm keeping the CZ, or I wouldn't have sent it to CZ Custom for a trigger job and adjustable sights.

I really like everything else about that CZ. Like the 1911, it has some heft to it. To my hands, it's a "natural pointer." Early results sure look like it's capable of great accuracy. The 40 is no slouch of a cartridge, and the gun is a work of industrial art.

No, I have some lesser toys I can sell off to satisfy my better half before I get a 1911.

Then too, I was wondering if a good 1911 wouldn't be wasted on me. I'd taken nearly a decade off from shooting and, when I came back to it with the CZ, my eyes didn't seem to be what they once were.

But Sunday I was disabused of those worries. I was at the range "breaking in" a new Ruger 22/45 and, while there, dragged out my older Ruger KBP-141 357 and surprised myself with some pretty fantastic off-hand groups.

A lot of it has to do with the sights, I think. Of all the handguns I've had or shot, the style of rear sight on that revolver seems best for my eyeballs. The rear notch is surrounded with a thin white rectangle - which is the style I ordered for the CZ. (I never have done as well with the 3-dot style.)
 

soldernut

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
300
Cheesewhiz said:
soldernut said:
Now, somebody 'splain to me why I shouldn't choose the Rock Island Match as my first 1911. ;-)

I wouldn't try to talk you out of it at all, I love 1911's but it is a match grade trigger on that gun. That's why it has an even more awesome trigger than a standard/combat grade 1911.
I would hope that this is going to be a range only gun, if you end up pulling the trigger, pun intended.
Trigger pulls in the 2.5 to 3.5 lb range are light and sweet and dangerous as hell with a carry/defense gun.

[sn] Range gun for sure. I'm not in law enforcement, don't have a CC permit, don't go around packing. For defense in the home, well, let's pray it never comes to that. But I do have a powerful Boxer (dog), a shotgun and 357 revolver that I'd prefer as first-line defense choices.

BTW I have a couple or more CZ's with worked over triggers (some by me and some by CZ Custom) the triggers clean up very well, very well indeed.

[sn] I was hoping that would be the case. Glad for the confirmation.

I also have a couple of CZ guns that have the best factory DA/SA triggers made.

That's not hard to believe. My CZs trigger wasn't "bad," and I can imagine a really superb one sneaks off the assembly line now and again.

It's interesting how many 1911 fans also have CZs. Makes me feel like I'm in good company.
 

revhigh

Hawkeye
Joined
Aug 31, 2005
Messages
5,590
Location
PA
soldernut said:
It's interesting how many 1911 fans also have CZs. Makes me feel like I'm in good company.

It's all in 2 words between 1911's and CZ's .... accuracy .... and ergonomics.

Speaking of accuracy, when I mentioned the 'caliber' of the 1911, I was referring to 'caliber' within the ranks of the semi-auto family, so that leaves out 38, 357, etc etc.

Given that parameter, of the main auto calibers, how would you rate .380, 9MM, .40, and .45 ?

I'd rate them from most to least accurate .... 45 .... 9MM .... .380 ...... .40.

The .40 caliber was the most disappointing caliber I've ever shot in terms of accuracy. I went through THREE .40 caliber guns, and NONE of them could hit the broad side of a barn from INSIDE the barn with the doors and windows shut. I also don't buy that a caliber 'becomes' accurate because a lot of people like it, and the guns become more specialized and accurate because of that.

I think a caliber is inherently accurate FIRST, and BECAUSE of THAT ... people discover it and really like due to it's accuracy.

Another thing that the 45 has is it's a big heavy bullet going slow, which is ALWAYS more accurate ... it's a characteristic of the caliber itself. 40's are going roughly 300 FPS faster than most 45 target loads, and UNLIKE the 45, it's accuracy actually INCREASES with a corresponding increase in velocity ... at least that's what my testing and reloading showed. The bullet design is also a factor in accuracy.

Hey !! Whatever !! It is what it is, and most like 1911's because of 1) The physical platform .... 2) The TRIGGER ..... and 3) The caliber. When a gun has ALL THREE of those parameters nailed .... what's not to like ?

You'll see ..... :D

REV
 

soldernut

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jul 24, 2010
Messages
300
revhigh said:
soldernut said:
It's interesting how many 1911 fans also have CZs. Makes me feel like I'm in good company.

It's all in 2 words between 1911's and CZ's .... accuracy .... and ergonomics.

[sn] It looks like we agree on the ergonomics aspect, but part company when it comes to accuracy. More below...

Speaking of accuracy, when I mentioned the 'caliber' of the 1911, I was referring to 'caliber' within the ranks of the semi-auto family, so that leaves out 38, 357, etc etc.

[sn] Fair enough.

>Given that parameter, of the main auto calibers, how would you rate .380, 9MM, .40, and .45 ?

[sn] I've had zero experience with the .380, so can't speak to that other than to speculate that it's probably poor.

I had one stunningly accurate S&W Model 39 (9mm). It's problem wasn't accuracy, it was that it had a spoiled cat's appetite for ammunition. Unless you fed it exactly what it wanted, it would jam on feeding or stovepipe on ejection. But it did establish, for me, that a 9mm can be tremendously accurate. An acquaintance has a Browning Hi Power that was hitting soda cans at 50 yards one afternoon. No misses.

But I'll also happily stipulate that no other 9mm I've personally shot could come close to that 39. Anybody want a Ruger P-89? Talk about an inaccurate 9! It takes the cake.

I haven't had much experience with the .45 ACP, but I'll stipulate its potential for accuracy given its wide acceptance by target competitors. I say "potential" for accuracy because there's more involved than just the cartridge. The gun must be built to make the most of it. Lots of 1911s are.

I've shot only three 40s. A friend's Springfield XD and H&K USP were okay. Not stellar, but pretty good. In fairness to those guns, he doesn't hand load, I wasn't loading 40 at the time, so we were shooting cheap factory ammo. His choice.

My CZ 40, shot from a good bench rest - and using hand loads - was giving me nice little clover-leaf groups.

For the moment, I'll go out on a limb and speculate that my CZ 40 will be really accurate when the trigger is smoothed out.


I'd rate them from most to least accurate .... 45 .... 9MM .... .380 ...... .40.

The .40 caliber was the most disappointing caliber I've ever shot in terms of accuracy. I went through THREE .40 caliber guns, and NONE of them could hit the broad side of a barn from INSIDE the barn with the doors and windows shut. I also don't buy that a caliber 'becomes' accurate because a lot of people like it, and the guns become more specialized and accurate because of that.

[sn] As for 40 Cal accuracy, there's this YouTube maven, Hickock, 45 that demonstrates Glock accuracy. In one of his videos, he uses a compact 40 Cal Glock to hit a steel plate at 230 yards.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GmMEg4y54Dk&feature=channel

He has a couple other videos of 40 cal shooting, and accuracy looks pretty good to me. I don't care for Glocks, but the 40 Cal cartridge shows up pretty darned well.

I'm not saying the caliber "becomes" accurate because a lot of people like it. I'm saying that market forces drive the attention that's given to the production of guns that eventually win the cartridge a reputation for accuracy.

Would the 45 be perceived as accurate if the 1911 had never advanced beyond the loosey-goosey military examples of yore? I think not. I think its fame for accuracy came about because some clever people recognized the 1911's potential and set about achieving it.


I think a caliber is inherently accurate FIRST, and BECAUSE of THAT ... people discover it and really like due to it's accuracy.

Another thing that the 45 has is it's a big heavy bullet going slow, which is ALWAYS more accurate ... it's a characteristic of the caliber itself. 40's are going roughly 300 FPS faster than most 45 target loads, and UNLIKE the 45, it's accuracy actually INCREASES with a corresponding increase in velocity ... at least that's what my testing and reloading showed. The bullet design is also a factor in accuracy.

[sn]I'm seeing different results with the 40. Or I should probably say that I'm seeing great results with 40s loaded to pretty slow velocities. It might also shoot great at high velocities - haven't gone there yet.

I've not chronographed any of my hand loads, but I'm loading down in the 800 fps range (according to the manuals); maybe a little less. That was a "sweet spot" for .38 Special target: 148 gr HBWC, 2.8 gr. Bullseye, about 742 fps. In my Ruger 357, and using that loading, I could lay down "one hole" groups without much trouble.

The CZ 40 Cal appears headed in the same direction with slow loads. Light charges of Power Pistol, Bullseye and Clays and all producing nice, tight groups when I use a 175 gr, semi-wadcutter bullet that I cast from a Lee "tumble lube" mold. The second best bullet seems to be a 180 gr. truncated cone from Master Cast.


Hey !! Whatever !! It is what it is, and most like 1911's because of 1) The physical platform .... 2) The TRIGGER ..... and 3) The caliber. When a gun has ALL THREE of those parameters nailed .... what's not to like ?

You'll see ..... :D

REV

It is what it is, indeed. So far I like the ergonomics of the 1911 platform. I've now learned how great a 1911 trigger can be. Others are getting fantastic accuracy and I'll expect the same when I get mine.

Many thanks for all the great tips, commentary and encouragement. This adventure is taking my shooting experience to a whole, 'nuther level.
 

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