Flatgate with 4 5/8 barrel?

[8pointer]

Last weekend I met up with a friend of mine who is selling off some of his Ruger collection. My primary interest was a 10" 44 flattop that he is selling, but when I was looking over his list of guns, what jumped out at me was a single six flatgate listed with a 4 5/8" barrel. Here comes the best part, he has a factory letter verifying that the gun shipped with a 4 5/8" barrel! No this is not a lightweight, the serial number is in the 386xx range. He tells me that he has had the gun and letter for a few years. When he called to get the letter, the woman that he spoke with in the records department said that "there were a couple of pages in the log book of flatgate guns that shipped with the 4 5/8" barrel". RENE indicates that only one 4 5/8" flatgate is known, serial number 54431, that was reportedly produced as a sample. I hope to actually see the gun (and letter) this weekend. Could there be several of these short barrel flatgates out there that are undiscovered? Thoughts, feedback, opinions?

 

[rugerguy]

That would indeed be very cool and if it has a letter one has to give it the benefit of the doubt.We;ve seen them over the years, have made some over the years, as lots of folks LIKE the shorter barrel...as for the comment "the lady said there was several pages" all hearsay, maybe she said "several entries made in the pages" of the 'day book, never know, as for the RENE, thet numbers( total) reflects on just what has been REPORTED so far, same goes for ranges of serial numbers,till some one comes up with MORE , or higher or lower that what was reported so far, this is all we have to go on...it is NOT 'cut and dry" or carved in stone....yes love to hear more as to this gun, and any pictures would be awesome, I prefer to "see" just what is what, how it was done, and then make an opinion....the proof is in the pudding, there are LOTS of stories out there, all part of "Ruger lore"...yes even some of us old timers can and do get "fooled"...I bought a short barreled model one time in the box and all and my wife "doubted" it and wiped off the 'cold blue' on the end of the barrel with her finger, no go, it was 'homemade' job, and very WELL done by a local machinist, who LOVED short barreled 22 single actions..... :roll:
Sounds like he may have some nice ,as well as 'interesting' guns...... :wink:

 

[radicalrod]

Hey Jerry, send that gun to me so I can check it out for you....it may take a few years BUT I will take good care of it while we sort it out...Just be sure to send me the letter TOO.....sounds like an ODD BALL GUN....getter done...RR.

 

[street]

I talked to a person a few years ago at the Roanoke, VA gun show and he said he had a flatgate with a 4 5/8 in. bl. I can't remember if he said he call the factory and they said it shipped that way or if he had a letter stating such. At the time I didn't pay too much attention to it as if there was such a gun it looks as if by now a few would have shown up. And I always get a couple of "I HAVE THIS 30 CAL FLATGATE WITH RED EAGLE GRIPS THAT BILL RUGER SENT TO MY FATHER, AS MY FATHER WENT TO COLLEGE WITH HIM AND THEY ARE GOOD FRIENDS. HOW MUCH IS IT WORTH?". :lol: :lol: :?

As the first Lightweights had a flat loading gate, it is possible that a distributor might had ordered a run of the Single-sixes with a 4 5/8 in. bl. And if he does have a letter!!!!! That would be a great find.

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

During more than 40 years, across all my wanderings, I have never observed a "real" 4 5/8" flatgate Single Six.........FWIW, I have seen very few 4 5/8" Single Six revolvers of any kind, Lightweights excepted.........Just sayin' 8)

 

[chet15]

I pretty much have to agree with Splits on this one. A 4-5/8" after all, if there were two pages of them why hasn't one of these shown up on a collector's table by now? And especially in a flatgate? Something doesn't jibe with the factory comment unless they were sent overseas or something.
The serial number I reported in the reference, #54431, is via J.D.'s latest book. I don't remember where it was reported in there, maybe in the list of guns transferred over from the Red Barn to the Lacey Place Southport factory?
There were prototype Lightweight Single-Sixes, which would have probably been taken right off of the Single-Six Serial number sequence (maybe...they wouldn't have been 200000 range guns anyway), but with none of those known to have shown up, its anybody's guess what the sn's are.
Chet15

 

[Ale-8(1)]

As Bob C would say . . . "screwdriver variation"?

But it's a Ruger . . . never say never.

;) ;) ;)

 

[Saint]

I do have the letter (scanned) and I tried to attach it but it did not work. I can take pictures, also, but I will need instructions on how to submit them.
Buckeye, I am the person who told you about the 4-5/8" Flatgate at the Roanoke GS a few years ago. I purchased 3 Ruger auto Red Eagles from you at the time.

Below is what was in the Ruger letter to me:

"Thank you for your recent letter inquiring about your Ruger Single Six revolver, serial number 38,6XX.
Our records show that this revolver was shipped in April of 1956, as a model Single Six, with a 4-5/8" barrel.
Enclosed please find a Parts List and Instructions Manual for your Ruger Single Six revolver.
Thank you for giving us this opportunity to be of service."
Sincerely
K. M. Pritula

Maybe someone like JD can ask Ms. Pritula about this situation since he has done such a great job of researching and publishing data on Rugers. Without some 'Insider' who can check the Ruger records, I am certain there will be many doubters on this revolver (and the other 4-5/8" ones that Ms. Pritula mentioned to me during our telephone call).
Again, when I am instructed as to how to transmit the letter and pictures of the Flatgate, I will do so.

 

[Saint]

In direct response to "Ruger Guru", Ms Pritula said "There are several 4-5/8" Single Sixes listed in the records around this serial number." She did not say there were two pages of them. In fact, when I asked her how many she saw, she responded by stating that she was not supposed to release such information. Again, I suspect she/Ruger might release the information to JD or even to you because of your standing with Ruger Collectors.
I hope this can happen since I know how doubting collectors are regarding information that is not published.
I am a long time Colt SAA collector and I often doubt even that which is published.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Saint, you are referring to the member's "rank" as opposed to their usernames.

Note that the person you refer to as Ruger Guru is actually chet15 or HAWKEYE#28 or rugerguy, just as your username is Saint and your "rank" is Newly Registered.

Sounds to me like you have a nicely-documented, unusually scarce variation there.

Thanks for sharing and welcome to the site.

:)

 

[8pointer]

Terry,

Glad you found the site. I apologize for misquoting you about the language used by the person in Ruger records. Just trying to get this information out there so that we can get feedback from the "big dogs" in Ruger collecting. If you email me the pics I can post them for you. Give me a ring if you don't have my email address.

Jerry

 

[8pointer]

 

[Saint]

The pictures have been sent to "8pointer" who started this discussion. He said he would post them for me. I had not looked at my Short Flatgate for a long time. The frame has some wear on it below the hammer screw on each side. The end of the barrel shows some holster wear on the left side, but the right side looks very nice. The most wear is on the ejector rod housing when it is viewed in sunlight. Some areas have turned reddish where it may have lost bluing and some light rust may be forming. The grip-strap and grips are quite nice.
I have several 5-1/2" Flatgates which are in about 99% condition which gives me the ability to make comparisons.

 

[8pointer]

 

[8pointer]

 

[radicalrod]

Looks good to me.....would look even better in OHIO :lol: :lol: :lol: RR.

 

[SteveRuger]

My question would be ,' Does the Original Letter have the Sturm Ruger Water Marks'? The latest printers & scanners can do a lot of things. J/S

 

[Saint]

Being the owner of the revolver, my response is probably of little value to you concerning the watermark. I do not know what it is supposed to look like, but to me I see some dome-like article that could even be a beehive (like the seal for the state of Utah) with CAPITOL BOND® beneath the "Beehive Structure"
25% COTTON

I also have the slick white envelope (addressed to me) with the Ruger return address on it. The postmark is dated 03/10/09. the letter is dated March 6, 2009.

I hope to have 8Pointer take the revolver and the letter it to the next Ruger Show he attends.
I certainly understand the comment you made about what printer/scanners can do. At 70 years of age,
I am fortunate to be able to ever get my scanner to work. My inability to get the pictures and the Ruger letter onto this forum accentuates my lack of computer skills. Again, I have to thank 8Pointer for helping me.

 

[Saint]

In response to Hawkeye#28 comment above;

..FWIW, I have seen very few 4 5/8" Single Six revolvers of any kind, Lightweights excepted.........Just sayin'

FWIW, I have a 4-5/8" standard weight Single-Six that is near mint. Its serial # is 1883XX.
I did not realize they were so rare. It does not have the flat loading gate, of course. I have purchased many
older Single-Sixes since about 2008 (mostly Flat gates/Lightweights).

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I haven't seen many of the "shorties" myself, but I do happen to have round-gate convertible 4456XX that shipped in May of 1966, with a 4-5/8" barrel (RSS4X). It's one of my favorites. I appreciate your enthusiasm for these little pieces. Perhaps it's because we are of similar vintage.

;) ;) ;)

Edited to correct ship date . . . thanks, Street.

:oops:

 

[8pointer]

My question would be ,' Does the Original Letter have the Sturm Ruger Water Marks'? The latest printers & scanners can do a lot of things. J/S

I haven't seen the actual letter or gun yet. Hope to soon. But I will say this, I know the owner well enough to say that I am 100% confident that he would not fake this letter.

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

Look-Listen- Learn: ...........If Ms Pritula signed that letter, the gun as noted is legitimate. You can "take that to the bank". She was part of the Ruger operation for decades, Stephan Vogel's right hand and the Administrator of Export and Domestic Records. She would know about and verify this anomaly and similar guns. As far as my earlier comment about 4 5/8" Single sixes: To clarify, I would add that in my earlier days of "the chase", ala the 70's, 80's and 90's, I personally saw or knew of very very few short barrel Single Sixes, and especially those with correct marked RSS4 boxes......... That said, I now own a few and I assume the fact that they appeared to me in the past ten or so years, was because the original owner has passed on to the Big Gun Show up yonder. As noted and in print, there were few made in the first place. Mine are in the 17XXXX and a bit higher range, and under 190XXX.

 

[Saint]

Hawkeye 28, thanks for the comment about Ms. Pritula. My true hope is that someone who reads this forum, and who has some 'pull' at Ruger, will contact the 'powers that be' and will ask them to view their records in the 38,XXX range in order to determine exactly how many such short-barreled flatgates were produced.
When I read Dougan's books, I see great detail on so many versions of the Single-Sixes, so it concerns me that if, as Ms. Pritula stated, "There are several (many/quite a few) such flatgates in that serial number range", how would someone who researched the records have missed this data. Maybe the next book on Rugers can incorporate such data along with actual serial numbers.
Regarding the 4-5/8" Rugers, I like the Tri-colors the most. The first one I saw was in 1967. I did not see another one until about three years ago. I have three of these today with the earliest one being in the 200XXX range.
My preference for the short-barreled single actions is a holdover from my Colt SAA collection (large calibers) where the 4-3/4" barreled variety is my favorite.

 

[contender]

This is one of the reasons this Forum is the best. Excellent collecting information is found and new stuff is shared.
Ms. Pritula is no longer with Ruger, (after a bit over 30 years there,) and having met her & spent time discussing a lot of things with her, I'd say if it has her signature, it's legit. However, there have been typos, even from her. I know, as I have 2 letters that were incorrect.
So, how about this;
Why not get a second letter from Ruger? Get the current Records Custodian to send you one. The cost is $10 and when you send the request, specify it has the shorter barrel. Having more than one letter can help it's provenance.

 

[Saint]

Contender, thanks for the response.
My solution is that since, as the revolver owner, my proof will always be suspected by people who know about past scams. I will be happy for someone who is well regarded on this forum to seek a second letter from Ruger. I will certainly be willing to pay the meager sum of $10 plus stamps, envelop, etc.

My desire is to simply determine how many such short-barreled flatgates were made by Ruger.
Please believe me when I tell you that I had a very long question/answer discussion period with Ms. Pritula.
I was like a lawyer asking her over and over about what she had found in the records since I realized what she was telling me was revolutionary information.

Any volunteers?

 

[street]

I haven't seen many of the "shorties" myself, but I do happen to have round-gate convertible 4456XX that shipped in May of 1956, with a 4-5/8" barrel (RSS4X). It's one of my favorites. I appreciate your enthusiasm for these little pieces. Perhaps it's because we are of similar vintage.

;) ;) ;)

I think May of 1956 is a little early for that revolver. Is that a typo?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

You are absolutely correct . . . it's May of 1966.

Good catch, thanks.

:oops:

 

[contender]

Saint, you can request the letter yourself. It's a different process nowadays. You have to fill out a short form, send it & a check & patiently wait 4-8 weeks before a letter will arrive. Besides, getting a second letter in your name to go with the first one will help seal the deal so to speak.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Here's the request form . . .

http://www.ruger.com/pdf/letterOfAuthenticity.pdf

:)

 

[Saint]

Regarding the date of manufacture for my Single-Six with a 38,XXX serial number, 1956 IS correct!! The two forum responders, Street and Ale-8(1) must have been thinking the serial number range was in the 380,XXX range. I am no Ruger Guru, but I do know that all Flatgates were supposedly manufactured in the 1950's. To paraphrase a famous American gun author, "Hell, I was there" (in the 1950's, that is).
Also, to Ale-8(1), thanks for the request form. I have requested many factory letters from S&W, Colt, Cody Museum and even Ruger. The major problem with all of them is that they use standard replies. In fact, my first interaction with Ms. Pritula at Ruger resulted in me asking her to read back to me what she was going to write in the letter about the 4-5/8" Single-Six we had just discussed. Her response was that she was going to merely write when it was shipped (without mention of the barrel length). She did not seem to understand that the point was that I had an unusual gun because of its barrel length even though we had just finished discussing that issue. Of course, since she is not a collector, she probably assumed that "I knew the gun's barrel length" so why put it in the letter.
It would be great if historians at gun manufacturers could also be collectors. That used to be the case at Colt, but it is not today. At S&W, Roy Jinks, their historian, is a true collector and a great historian!! We need one like him at Ruger.