Flake powders and other newbie questions

[NikA]

Your success with flake powders will largely depend on the size of the flakes and the method being used to dispense them. My experience with Unique has been that it is a pain, but it has the largest flakes I have seen in a flake powder. Some other "flake" powders are very fine and work well with many types of powder dispensers.

ACCURATE pistol powders (you mentioned No. 2 and No. 9 as Alliant) are all very fine ball powders. You will have more problems with spillage than with consistent metering. I dropped a case full of No. 9 on a wood floor and could not even see the grains. Accurate powders also seem to be consistently in stock at this time.

Win 231 is equivalent to HP-38. They are or were produced at the same plant on the same equipment at the same time and only the packaging is supposed to be different. HP-38 is currently available in 8 pounds jugs from Natchez at least, and probably from other retailers as well.

H4895 is a long stick powder and will present similar issues to large flake powders for metering. Every manufacturer of rifle powder has a powder in the burn range, so if you can't find H4895, look at a burn rate chart and find a similar powder that is in stock. As you may know, 4895 was developed for/by the US military for the .30-06 round and, as a result, different formulations and substitutes for it have been around forever.

 

[powder smoke]

Progressive press imo is not what one uses to learn reloading YMMV JMO. ps

 

[Ka6otm]

Flake powders work very well for me in Lee LoadMaster progressive presses (2) using both Unique and Bullseye and the Lee Pro Auto Disk providing I'm dropping around 3-½ grains or more. Below that amount it gets iffy.

I use one or the other every week when I reload and have for a long, long time.

 

[Chief 101]

Progressive press imo is not what one uses to learn reloading YMMV JMO. ps

I agree all the way, but in attempting to assist I have to say the internet has been unfair to flake powders. I find that loading flake(or just about any type of powder) powders by volume instead if weight works better. I use an RCBS or Dillon rotary dispenser and as long as I bump the rotor at the top and bottom the same, I get good results out of my ammunition...I find this works in my varmint rifles with extruded powders also...be consistent and be diligent with your data research...most of all, have fun.

 

[DGW1949]

Seems to me that the internet has lead to what I can only call "over thinking a lot of things". That said, here's my take on the matter at hand:

I (and many others) have used both flake and stick powders for decades.
Me personally, I'm a big fan of Unique and IMR4895, and have been using both for over 40 years.
Depending on the intended use of the finished cartridge, sometimes I dip it, sometimes it gets run through a powder dispenser, and sometimes I weight each individual charge. All of those methods work equally well so long as each is appropriately matched to the task at hand, AND the equipment being used is in proper working order, properly adjusted and maintained during use.

In other words, getting ANY powder from point A (it's container) to Point B (the cartridge case) in a successful manner perty-much comes down to two things:
1)....Following the instructions which come with EVERY dipper-set, powder measure, and/or scale.
2)....Having enough common sense to know which method is better suited to the task at hand.

Yeah, it really can be just that simple.....but only if ya let it.

DGW

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

Progressive loaders are not meant to produce ammo to be used for precision shooting. The volume measures used in progressive presses provide plenty accurate charges for almost any use,from plinking,action shooting,bowling pins to three gun or Cowboy Action. If you want to load large flake powders at maximum charges, progressive loaders are not the way to go.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

My Lee powder measure does stick powder perfectly and my RCBS measure does ball powder perfectly but nether one is perfect with Blue Dot or the other type of powder. :D

 

[powder smoke]

Progressive press imo is not what one uses to learn reloading YMMV JMO. ps

I also have a Rock Chucker that I'm learning on, but I still want to make buying decisions for the long term.

You may remember my recent questions about Hornady's Lock n Load conversion for the Rock Chucker to facilitate moving dies between the two.

My goal is to learn, KISS, and pass on knowledge and the freedom to reload, to kids and grandkids (while the ability to do so, still exists).

Good man!! there is a lot going on with a progressive press like to hold on
to friends hate to see a mishap. A little experience is a good thing!! :D ps

 

[Chief 101]

you are going to be fine for what you are trying to accomplish...CCI is a good choice...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I was trying to say if they recommend a CCI mag primer that is what you should use but any other brand of Mag primer is almost as good but not exactly a replacement.
Most Mag primers are the same, almost.
Most regular primers are the same, almost.
If you have to substitute a regular for a mag primer it should be ok, most of the time.
If you have to load a mag primer instead of a regular primer, I would lower the charge considerably when starting.
Federal primers have a softer/more sensitive cup.
Winchester WLP large pistol primers work for both regular and mag loads.

That's about all I know about primers except sometimes a rifle primer can be substituted for a regular pistol primer or vice versa in some very few cases where the rifle round isn't very high pressure, or the handgun round is high pressure, like in the 22 Hornet or sometimes a 454 Casull or 358 Max load might call for a rifle primer.

What was the question? Oh yeah. Brands don't make a lot of difference but primer type does. ...and I use a lot of regular Winchester primers in my 357mag loads but most of them are mild. :D

 

[Mtneer]

Most of my dies are RCBS. Midway has RCBS .308 Win, 2-die sets for $34.99. If you need the small base sizing die in your set as I do (for loading for my semi-auto) Midway has the SB sets for $39.99.
You'll need a shell holder too. A RCBS shell holder will run you another $7.69 from Midway. :)
Like I say, most of my dies are RCBS. But I have nothing against Lyman, or even some Lee dies either. I too have heard some bad reports about Hornady dies, but my old Pacific Carbide die set for my .357 Mag has been going strong for better than 40 years. And I'm not sure, but I thought Pacific and Hornady were one and the same. Maybe not though. Does anyone know? :?:

 

[Mtneer]

Crap! :x I'm sorry TitanX. I didn't know Midway was doing that - refusing to ship certain items to some places such as MA. I'm afraid things are going to get worse before they get better. :(

 

[Chief 101]

Of the several pounds of powder that I purchased in the late '70's of various brands and burning rates only 2 pounds went bad. All were stored in the shop, maybe 30# of partial cans...I still find myself using some 35+yearold powders successfully now and then...but the IMR 4227, in 2 different batch #s bit the red dust...where I live there is no regulation that I know of regarding the storage of smokeless powder for residential use, I do take precautions, and, after seeing my stockpile have started using and not replacing...enuf drivel

 

[Jimbo357mag]

This has a lot of good info about storing powder and primers.

http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/SAAMI_ITEM_200-Smokeless_Powder.pdf

Says residential up to 20lbs is ok and 20-50lbs is ok within cabinet having 1" insulated walls.

I think our Florida Fire Marshal says 40lbs is ok in a residence.

I would suggest that if using a large jug of powder do not be opening and closing it each time you start to reload some ammo. That is how oxygen and moisture can enter the jug. Instead get several 1lb bottles labeled clearly and pour from the jug into the 1lb bottles for reloading. That way you will only have to open the jug a few times. :D

 

[Rick Courtright]

I would suggest that if using a large jug of powder do not be opening and closing it each time you start to reload some ammo. That is how oxygen and moisture can enter the jug. Instead get several 1lb bottles labeled clearly and pour from the jug into the 1lb bottles for reloading. That way you will only have to open the jug a few times. :D

(Emphasis added)

Hi,

When you read all the labels and books about powder storage, you'll see what Jimbo's suggesting is one of those "Do as I say, not as I do" things! The warnings to never re-use powder bottles are there to try and keep folks safe from themselves, but I agree with him on minimizing the exposure to air when possible. The secret in my book lies in the part I emphasized for him: making up those labels and putting them on an empty jug BEFORE ever pouring a grain of powder in it (I use the powder name AND usually the lot number so I can trace it back to the "parent" jug.) The last thing you want is to get distracted and forget which powder's in what unmarked or mismarked jug--that can be a pretty good recipe for disaster.

Rick C

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Anybody could do a little study of factory ammo if they had the time and money. I doubt that any factory info of that type is released by the companies. I have never seen any.

I would bet that +/- .1 grain is close enough to a standard load for most of us. I like to think I can do better than that. :D

 

[Chief 101]

Jimbo, factory ammo is metered by volume...and weight wise is very close to exact because of their techniques, and instead of going +/- .1 grain you might expect to see it in terms of percentage...eg: 25acp vs 458 Lott... .1 grain might effect one loading more than the other...when I refer to 'factory' ammo I am referring to long time major ammo manufacturers only.

 

[Chief 101]

seems you are taking overthinking to a whole new level. Better to be safe than sorry, I get it. You are going to load .223 Remington and it will work in a bolt gun .223 or ar15 type...you are going to use data supplied by major component manufacturers and not by internet commando's...and if you use your Rockchucker and make one round at a time, monitoring every step of the process carefully, you will be happy and safe in your endeavers...hope this makes sense...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Jimbo, factory ammo is metered by volume...and weight wise is very close to exact because of their techniques, and instead of going +/- .1 grain you might expect to see it in terms of percentage...eg: 25acp vs 458 Lott... .1 grain might effect one loading more than the other...when I refer to 'factory' ammo I am referring to long time major ammo manufacturers only.

Yes, I get that, as the measure gets larger, for the larger rounds, the percent of error will stay the same but the difference in weight may vary.

The funny thing is as reloaders we can keep the error in weight the same, even with the larger rounds, but our percentage of error will vary as we change the cases we are working with. Interesting. :D

25 ACP ------- 1.5 grain
45-70 -------- 48.0 grain

 

[DGW1949]

Re:
"The objective is to shoot military grade ammo from the 5.56 (as designed)."...

If hand loading "military grade ammo" is your goal, you'll have to use choose a bullet which has a crimp grove and apply some tar-sealant before seating it....because US Mil-Spec ammo is both crimped and sealed.
Actually it's crimped/sealed on both ends, meaning that you'll also have to figure out a way to form a new crimp around the primer pocket after you've installed the new primer....And BTW, the primer is lacquer-sealed, not tar sealed like the bullet.
CCI markets the primer you'll need.
I have no idea what powder is used in LC 5.56 NATO ammo these days because all I do is shoot the stuff. What I can say though, is that military cartridges are loaded to a specific pressure/velocity level, NOT a specific "powder weight" level. You should also note that military-testing uses a much-different method of measuring pressure and velocity than is used by the guys who write the reloading manuals. What that means to this discussion is that when you are "following the manual" relative to recommended powders and charge weights, what you'll be doing is duplicating SAAMI-spec .223 loads, not "gen-you-wine" 5.56 military loads.

As to "which die set".....
Beings how the only real difference in a 5.56 and .223 barrel lies within the throat area, the same die set is sold/used for both.
No one can tell you whether or not you'll need a "small base" sizing die because the need for one of those is gun specific, NOT .223 vs 5.56 caliber specific. In other words, my particular (5.56) rifle don't require that I use a SB die but yours might, so all you can do there is pick one, try it and see.

Good luck in your endeavor.

DGW

 

[Chief 101]

seems you are taking overthinking to a whole new level. Better to be safe than sorry, I get it. You are going to load .223 Remington and it will work in a bolt gun .223 or ar15 type...you are going to use data supplied by major component manufacturers and not by internet commando's...and if you use your Rockchucker and make one round at a time, monitoring every step of the process carefully, you will be happy and safe in your endeavers...hope this makes sense...

My understanding and experience is that 223 Remington will chamber and fire from a 223 chamber or a 5.56 chamber.

However a 5.56 round SHOULD NOT be fired from a 223 Remington chamber.

Why buy a rifle chambered specifically for 5.56, if I'm going to shoot 223 from it.

The objective is to shoot military grade ammo from the 5.56 (as designed).

Where does the overthinking come in?

223 Remington and 5.56 X 45 are two very similar but different rounds.

When did precise chambering, throat length, case length and things of that nature become unimportant?

If you wants military grade ammo go buy it in bulk, you can't even buy the components as inexpensively as you can buy the surplus rounds. DGW outlined the process for making military grade 5.56, more processes and efforts than to just make some .223 Rem ammo from civilian components and data...I just finished with a small batch of .223 Rem's for replacing the rounds I shot today varmint hunting with my Ruger #1 Varmint rifle, it took me about 30 minutes to set everything up and run 40 rounds and put it all away(this ammo will function an AR 15 just fine)...and then run about the same amount of 22/250 rounds, it was fun shooting and fun getting ready to do it again(Rockchucker press). I doubt you are set to manufacture military grade ammo, and the difference is so miniscule you may not be able to tell which is which when it comes out of the barrel...sorry to run amok but there is nothing special about military ammo when used for civilian purposes...

 

[NikA]

It's not so much "not possible to reload" as not cost effective to reload. Akin to reloading 9mm FMJ blasting ammo, you will be able to buy comparable (or better, military grade with sealed necks and primers) ammo for nearly the same price as the components. Your reloading efforts are probably better spent elsewhere, such as using .223 bullets actually designed for accuracy versus a compromise between accuracy and penetration at range.

When the whole "ban M855/SS109" thing came about, the price of the "green tip" components, both new and pull-down, shot up quite a bit and then disappeared altogether. I'm not sure the market has had time to generate enough supply of these items to make it worth looking. All the usual suspects seem to only have new 62gr M855 bullets if they have any at all. ETA: looks like American Reloading and Pat's Reloading both have new M855 bullets for about 10c/per.

 

[Chief 101]

excellent idea!

 

[Mtneer]

Yeppers, been using them for a long time. Actually, I have two sets of Lee powder dippers. The first set (the red set) which I purchased 40 some odd years ago, has the powder charge weights of my favorite powders listed on the sliding chart crossed off, and replaced with the actual weights of the powder those particular dippers hold. The second set (the yellow set) which I purchased maybe 15 years ago, I’ve taken a razor knife to and trimmed down many of the dippers until they hold the right amount of my favorite powders. Then I put index cards in each of my dies sets that tell me which yellow powder dipper to use for a specific load. Of course I check the powder charge weights on a powder scale before charging a bunch of cases.

Pros: Lee powder dippers are relatively inexpensive, it’s easy to make your own custom sized dippers out of them and with practice you can throw pretty darned accurate powder charge weights time after time.

Cons: In my experience, most powder charges in the Lee dippers weigh less than what is listed on the sliding chart that comes with the set, they’re probably a bit slower to use than a regular powder measure once you have the powder measure set up and they do require practice to throw accurate powder charge weights.

 

[NikA]

I use the Lee dippers to work up loads with a scale. Usually, I will use one dipper to get me close, then a smaller dipper to "trickle" to the exact amount. I know that there is not much difference between "exact" and "close enough" for handgun loads, but I like to have a good basis on which to evaluate loads I am testing.

I bought a complete set of dippers when I started reloading and have probably acquired duplicates and triplicates for most pistol-range loads because they come with the Lee die sets. The ones that you can acquire only through specific purchase are the 0.17cc dippers that are good for fast powders in small cartridges. Overall, they are a good product for producing plinking ammo for beginning reloaders (by design, they will only throw charges at or below the charge weight listed on the chart).

 

[Mtneer]

Yeah, like NikA does, and explained very well, I "work up" a new load by using a Lee powder dipper that will get me close, then a RCBS powder trickler to "trickle" the powder onto a scale until I get the exact weight charge I'm looking for. I follow the same procedures when I'm loading within a half grain of maximum recommended charges for a couple of our big game rifles.

 

[Rick Courtright]

The dippers, with a portable digital scale, and a LEE hand loader, would seem to be a very totable solution for low volume loading in the field.

Hi,

I've known many loaders who wanted a "field kit" but very few, outside of some benchresters, who actually did any kind of loading in the field on a regular basis. However, if you do wish to assemble such a kit, I'd suggest the Lee Reloader press instead of their hand press. You can mount it on a board and C-clamp it to any number of surfaces, and at home, there's always a job for a spare press on the bench somewhere. That little C-press will do extra duty a lot easier than the hand press.

The hand press, or as a few people call it, "knee press", IS popular with people who have extremely limited space, and maybe don't have anything they can clamp a more conventional style press onto...

Rick C

 

[NikA]

As a note, your typical portable digital scale is not going to be good enough to be weighing powder. There are 7000 grains to a pound, which means you need very fine measurement resolution with excellent repeatability. Even a "good" portable digital scale, capable of 0.01 gram measurement, will not be getting you within 0.1 grain accuracy that you'd typically want. There are just too many variables: air pressure, wind, battery charge, local RF interference, etc. I have a cheap portable digital scale that I use to sort mixed weight bullets or casings; it is 100% inadequate for measuring powder charges. The laboratory balances that most electronic reloading scales are based upon are even sensitive to voltage fluctuations from wired power sources (there are a number of webpages on how best to achieve consistency from these devices).

By contrast, a well-packaged manual scale with protected knife-edges and bearings can be accurately set up in a few minutes and is mostly sensitive to mechanical disturbances. If I were reloading in the field and 0.1 grain increments mattered, this is what I'd be looking to use.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I would use a 'dipper only' on a very mild load that had a lot of room for error. Like many others, I use dippers to get close to a desired load but weigh the final charge and adjust before going on to the next. I do this when I only have a few cases to load or when working up a load. When I have more to do I will always use a powder dispenser and weigh the charge occasionally as well as looking to make sure the block of cases have the same level of powder in each case. This checking a block of cases is the best way to ensure that all your rounds are up to snuff. :D

 

[Rick Courtright]

BTW, my interest in a 'field' loading option, is more for a bug-out situation than any regular need to load in the field. A mounting platform and c-clamps for something like the Lee Reloader would be additional bulk to carry.

Hi,

Ah, in that case, what you might want is the "original" Lee Loader! The kind many of us got started on. Just be careful tapping those primers in with your hammer...

http://www.titanreloading.com/308-win-lee-loader-?search=lee%20loader

Notice the name of the company, too! :D

Rick C