Flak

[caryc]

Can someone please explain exactly what the flak is that WW2 fighter pilots had to fly through? Did these things explode in the air sending out shrapnel? Or was their purpose to hit the plane and explode? The info I find on the net is kind of confusing.

 

[TBear77]

Cary,

The flak they reference is primarily 88mm shells that had a fuse setting which would cause the shell to explode at a preselected altitude. The guns in an area would select different altitudes so that when allied planes flew thru an area there were shells exploding throughout the bomber formations. The shells usually had a feature where they would also explode if it hit an airplane, but a hit wasn't necessary.

Ted

Edited to correct 40 to 88 mm. The 40mm shells were normally solid rounds while the 88mm shells were fragmenting. Some day I'm going to learn to rely on my memory of what was discussed 50 years ago in history class. Some day...maybe. :shock:

 

[Colonialgirl]

flak
Used in World War II, 'flak' is a German abbreviation for Flugzeugabwehrkanone, or "aircraft defense cannon". 'Flak' was rapidly adopted by the Allies fr obvious reasons.

NOT an abbreviation for "Fliegerabwherekanone".
Flak was quickly adopted by the Allies because in the time it took to say Flugzeugabwehrkanone over the radio, you'd probably already be dead.

 

[pisgah]

The German phrase translated "aircraft defense cannon" was turned in to the military acronym FLAK, and that became in English a word meaning anti-aircraft fire. But the German acronym referred to a specific gun, the 88mm. The same gun, with various loads, was modified for anti-tank and direct support of infantry and used to great effect. In its anti-aircraft mode, the shells were fused to explode at whatever altitude the attacking planes were flying, and they sent out a cloud of shrapnel.

When you're watching WW2 movies, those black puffs of smoke you see blanketing the sky are exploding FLAK shells.

 

[eveled]

I don't have anything to add to the precise definition, but I find it fascinating that the word Flak has found it's way into modern vernacular. As in, "I caught a lot of flak for calling in sick on Monday".

Most have no clue were the word came from.

Amazing language we have.

 

[Snake45]

The German phrase translated "aircraft defense cannon" was turned in to the military acronym FLAK, and that became in English a word meaning anti-aircraft fire. But the German acronym referred to a specific gun, the 88mm. The same gun, with various loads, was modified for anti-tank and direct support of infantry and used to great effect. In its anti-aircraft mode, the shells were fused to explode at whatever altitude the attacking planes were flying, and they sent out a cloud of shrapnel.

When you're watching WW2 movies, those black puffs of smoke you see blanketing the sky are exploding FLAK shells.

Best answer yet. The term has come to mean any air-bursting ordnance intended to take down aircraft, and is also commonly (perhaps incorrectly?) used to denote non-airbursting projectiles, such as 20mm cannon, when directed from from ground to air.

Had never thought about it before, but I can't recall any contemporary WWII accounts from the Pacific where antiaircraft fire was called "flak." Seems to have been a ETO term in WWII. But you'll often read the term being used to describe any type of antiaircraft fire in Korea and Vietnam.

 

[Snake45]

I don't have anything to add to the precise definition, but I find it fascinating that the word Flak has found it's way into modern vernacular. As in, "I caught a lot of flak for calling in sick on Monday".

Most have no clue were the word came from.

Amazing language we have.

It's also become another term (sometimes spelled "flack," but not always) for a PR man/spin doctor.

 

[TBear77]

Following up on Pigsah's comment about the 88 being used against infintary. If you watch Band of Brothers, an 88mm artillery gun is shown in the episodes about the Battle of the Bulge. A distinctive feature that's a give away is the barrel is elevated to more than 60-degrees from horizontal. In the movie, the 88mm shells are the artillery rounds depicted exploding in the tree tops, spraying fragments on Easy Company's positions.

IIRC, the 88mm was also used for the main gun in the King Tiger tank.

Ted

 

[Bob Wright]

In the Pacific theater, it was generally referred to a "AA fire", or antiaircraft fire. The 40 mm Bofors gun, and smaller, used HE (high explosive) projectiles with impact fuses and did require a hit to detonate. The Navy found that the 3" shell was the smallest that could take a proximity fuse and replaced all the 40 mm guns with a new 3" gun, those these were too late for WW II.

A lot of time was spent developing HE projectiles, the result (WW II era) was that 20mm was the smallest projectile that could be fused, while the 3" was the smallest that could be fitted with the proximity fuse.


Bob Wright

 

[Jeepnik]

In the Pacific theater, it was generally referred to a "AA fire", or antiaircraft fire. The 40 mm Bofors gun, and smaller, used HE (high explosive) projectiles with impact fuses and did require a hit to detonate. The Navy found that the 3" shell was the smallest that could take a proximity fuse and replaced all the 40 mm guns with a new 3" gun, those these were too late for WW II.

A lot of time was spent developing HE projectiles, the result (WW II era) was that 20mm was the smallest projectile that could be fused, while the 3" was the smallest that could be fitted with the proximity fuse.


Bob Wright

Bob, I'm sitting below a lamp my grandfather started just before WWII. I finally finished it for him in 1978. It's a 3" 50 caliber anti aircraft shell practice round. It came from the USS Vestal a repair ship. For those that don't recall the USS Vestal, she was the repair ship tied up to the USS Arizona on December 7, 1941.

They refloated and refit the USS Vestal and she served the rest of the war as a repair ship.

 

[Wyandot Jim]

The Germans used many different calibers of Flak Guns. The Pilots could tell by the color of the burst as to the type used. Flak towers were set up for low altitude protection of airfields and other high profile targets.
The 88 was probably the most devastating weapon that the Germans had.
It was VERY effective for both ground and air combat along with mobile service

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Nice lamp, Jeepnik! One of my father's college friends had several similar shells around the house, at least one or two intended to become lamps. Last I saw, though, they were all holding ash trays (early '60s.)

I don't think "trench art" is quite the proper term for the relief treatment of the brass but how did you do that part?

Rick C

 

[Jeepnik]

Hi,

Nice lamp, Jeepnik! One of my father's college friends had several similar shells around the house, at least one or two intended to become lamps. Last I saw, though, they were all holding ash trays (early '60s.)

I don't think "trench art" is quite the proper term for the relief treatment of the brass but how did you do that part?

Rick C

Sometime before February 1941 my granddad was stationed on the USS Vestal. Things were pretty slow so he and a bunch of other machinist mates took the brass cases and filled them with wet sand. They then hand punched and carved the pattern. The practice head was drilled out for the bulb sockets. He turned a piece of Philippine mahogany for the base.

He got that far and then had a heart attack. He was discharged as a result. The lamp came home to San Pedro and was stuffed in various attics. Granddad somehow (old chief's network) got reinstated in January of 1942. And while he never went back to sea he served in San Francisco. Sadly, he died in November of 1942 from another heart attack. He never got payback. But his two boys and one son in law sure as heck did.

Flash forward to the mid 1970's and I was working at a local shipyard. Shipyards have everything you could imagine to work on stuff. So, working nights in the firehouse it was pretty slow. I found the lamp in mom's garage (I had played with it for hours as a kid) and decided it was time to finish what my grandfather had started.

The brass case was green, the shell was a sickly brown, and the finish on the base was shot. So, I acid dipped the metal to clean it. I then antiqued the case and then lacquered them both. The base was stripped and finished. After that all I had to do was wire it.

He actually made two. The other has an indian head pattern. No one in the family is talking about who has it. I've offered to finish it or refinish it (I don't know how far along he got) for them but no one has spoken up.

 

[SAJohn]

I seem to recall that the Navy called Anti-Aircraft rounds "ack ack".

It used to be that rapid fire smaller rounds were better at killing large targets and larger slower firing rounds with proximity fuses were better against smaller targets. A notable exception is the Navy Phalanx CIWS (See-Whiz) or R2-D2. Why back when we, at China Lake, proved that it could shoot down incoming artillery rounds. One scary thing about the Phalanx is that it cannot identify friend versus foe and, when turned, on is autonomous and will shoot down anything in the sky within about 5 miles of our ships. This fact gives our Naval Aviators pause for thought. When engaging multiple targets it prioritized them and fires bursts of 20mm ammo at the first target and goes for the second one without waiting for the bullets to arrive at that first target.

 

[Bobberfishin]

My Dad was a B-24 Bomber pilot in WWII. I have his scrap book from back then. There's a few photos of flak going off all around the formation as it's heading towards their target. Had to be scary as can be flying a huge plane through that stuff

 

[toysoldier]

That's common usage for "shrapnel," but incorrect. Shrapnel shells used a charge to expel sub-projectiles, while high-explosive shells produce fragments.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shrapnel_shell

 

[Tenbore]

The term "shrapnel" is used wrong 99% of the time. Most of the time fragment would be proper.

 

[caryc]

The term "shrapnel" is used wrong 99% of the time. Most of the time fragment would be proper.

If you have a few pieces enter your body, I don't think you'd really care about which term to use.

 

[Bob Wright]

The term "shrapnel" is used wrong 99% of the time. Most of the time fragment would be proper.

If you have a few pieces enter your body, I don't think you'd really care about which term to use.

Most of the time, fragments don't "enter your body." They just tear off whatever extremity is nearby and keep going. I picked up a fragment once that was a jagged piece of steel some eight or nine inches long and maybe two inches wide, and 1/4" or so thick. This whipsawing at high velocity could take a man's head clean off.

Bob Wright

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Well I don't know if it was a piece of shrapnel or a fragment that rattled around in my Dads B-17 ball turret. He was pretty lucky when you consider the confines of the turret. Yes you did have armor plate at your back. This was on a mission over Germany and he kept the piece for quite awhile. Unfortunately it has disappeared over the years

 

[Jeepnik]

The term "shrapnel" is used wrong 99% of the time. Most of the time fragment would be proper.

If you have a few pieces enter your body, I don't think you'd really care about which term to use.

Yep, that's a true. Hurts too.

By the way, back to the 88. Dad spent most of his time in Europe in a Ronson. He never had a good thing to say about 88's.

 

[toysoldier]

Well I don't know if it was a piece of shrapnel or a fragment that rattled around in my Dads B-17 ball turret. He was pretty lucky when you consider the confines of the turret. Yes you did have armor plate at your back. This was on a mission over Germany and he kept the piece for quite awhile. Unfortunately it has disappeared over the years

Contrary to popular impression, the ball turret was the safest position in a heavy bomber in WWII. An analysis of 1,117 air-battle casualties (110 killed, 1,007 wounded) from the 8th Air Force B-17 and B-24 Bomb Groups showed waist gunners were 20.9% of that total, with bombardiers, tail gunners, and navigators close behind. Ball turret gunners were only 5.9% of casualties. This info from the book Gunner by Donald Nijboer.

 

[caryc]

Well I don't know if it was a piece of shrapnel or a fragment that rattled around in my Dads B-17 ball turret. He was pretty lucky when you consider the confines of the turret. Yes you did have armor plate at your back. This was on a mission over Germany and he kept the piece for quite awhile. Unfortunately it has disappeared over the years

Contrary to popular impression, the ball turret was the safest position in a heavy bomber in WWII. An analysis of 1,117 air-battle casualties (110 killed, 1,007 wounded) from the 8th Air Force B-17 and B-24 Bomb Groups showed waist gunners were 20.9% of that total, with bombardiers, tail gunners, and navigators close behind. Ball turret gunners were only 5.9% of casualties. This info from the book Gunner by Donald Nijboer.

I'll bet that info would be real assuring to a person sitting in that little turret with enemy planes firing all around him. :shock:

 

[Bob Wright]

As to fragments, as friend of mine, a former co-worker, lost his uncle on D-Day. He researched his death and found the following information:

His uncle stepped on an anti-personnel mine on the beach which mangled his foot. He was treated by medics and evacuated to a nearby hospital ship. As he lay on a stretcher on the deck waiting to be taken below, he was killed by a falling fragment of our own antiaircraft fire.

I sort of find it a little funny that so much is made of hollow points bullets, yet such fragments go on unopposed.

Bob Wright

 

[Wyandot Jim]

Well I don't know if it was a piece of shrapnel or a fragment that rattled around in my Dads B-17 ball turret. He was pretty lucky when you consider the confines of the turret. Yes you did have armor plate at your back. This was on a mission over Germany and he kept the piece for quite awhile. Unfortunately it has disappeared over the years

Contrary to popular impression, the ball turret was the safest position in a heavy bomber in WWII. An analysis of 1,117 air-battle casualties (110 killed, 1,007 wounded) from the 8th Air Force B-17 and B-24 Bomb Groups showed waist gunners were 20.9% of that total, with bombardiers, tail gunners, and navigators close behind. Ball turret gunners were only 5.9% of casualties. This info from the book Gunner by Donald Nijboer.

That may be true. But you might want to do a little research on how you get out of the turret and to your parachute if the bail out order is given.. :wink: Notice in the films that the gunners didn't where their chutes they were stored forward of the waist gunners. Also the ball gunner had to rotate the turret, if it still had power, to be able to get out. His armor plate hatch was at his back. Once in a dive or spin it was almost impossible to bail out of any position due to the G forces.
From a WWII Ball Turret Gunner
So we hit the jump alarm and we had to jump from the plane, but we were separated. I was the second to last man out because it took me so long to get the ball in position to exit, get out of it, get my parachute on and get out of the plane. I’d never parachute jumped before. They told me what to do and fortunately it worked!”

A day in a ball turret



“The ball turret had a clutch with a hand crank, and an electric motor. To get in or out of the ball, you had to crank the ball so the guns were pointing straight down. The hatch would be exposed on the top inside the ship and you could get in. Once inside you closed the hatch and then you could activate the electric motor and also charge the guns solenoids. In an emergency, and if you had enough time and you hadn’t lost power, you could point the guns down, open the door, and get out and up into the ship. I kept my parachute outside because it wouldn’t fit in the ball with me. My flak jacket wouldn't fit in there either so I'd give it to a waist gunner to stand on. The real problem was that if flak broke the gears to the turret, you were stuck in the turret and you couldn’t even hand crank it around. There was no way out.”

After one mission, another crew asked me to come over and look at their ball turret guy because they couldn’t get him out. He was stuck in there and they didn’t know how to open the ball turret. So I went over and opened the door and his head was missing. A 20mm came through his ball turret and took his head off. I didn’t know he was dead until I opened the door.

One time on a mission I noticed my back was as cold as hell. When we landed, I saw a slit in the door behind my back. A piece of flak had made a slice through the armor plate in the door I was up against. I’ve also had the window broken twice from flak.”




"Ode to the ball turret gunner"

From my mother's sleep I fell into the State,
And I hunched in its belly till my wet fur froze.
Six miles from earth, loosed from its dream of life,
I woke to black flak and the nightmare fighters.
When I died they washed me out of the turret with a hose.

 

[blackhawknj]

I met a ball turret gunner a few years ago, he said they tried to get the smallest guys for that position. he emphasized how important it was to plug in your heated flight suit-and how important it was for it to work, it was 20 Degrees below Zero at the altitudes they flew at.
I read a book by a German historian, he said it took 16,000 rounds from the first model of flak cannon and 8,000 rounds from the more advanced model to bring down a bomber.