Engineers need "hands on training"

[Fox Mike]

Reading Contenders post in the Ford rant It reminded me of one of my many encounters with deskbound engineers.
As many know I worked on helicopters and had lots of time to cuss engineers. There was one particular test on an AH-1 Cobra that was supposed to see if the 'low engine oil' light worked as designed. There was a set of specific instructions, laid out in the maintenance manual, on how to perform said test. Our maintenance officer, our lead AH-1 pilot, and I were performing the test when it became plain to us that all that was happening was we we making sure the light bulb was actually OK; not that it would actually illuminate when the oil dropped below acceptable levels. We worked on how to make the test actually test the low oil level. We worked on it for nearly a week off and on and finally came up with a proper test. I wrote it up and sent it to the engineers.
A few weeks passed and I was called into Quality Control and told I had an engineer on the line that wanted to speak with me. He said that he had read my proposed change to the manual and found that the way it was presently written was OK. I asked him if he had access to an actual helicopter or was he looking at a drawing? He said :"I AM AN ENGINEER, AND DON'T NEED TO ACTUALLY TOUCH THE HELICOPTER, I CAN MAKE A DETERMINATION FROM THE SCHEMATICS." I called our Maintenance Officer and asked that he speak with this 'gentleman'. No matter what we said or explained to him he said that he manual was correct as written.
As far as I know all that operated AH-1s were still testing the light bulb, and NOT the system, well after I retired. All because he could "read a schematic"; even thought the schematic was incorrect.

 

[sceva]

CNC (deskbound programmers are cut from the same cloth. Worked in a shop making aerospace part from exotic materials. Programs being generated in the front office by "CNC Programmer / Engineer" who got all his knowledge from the "Book". The machine operators would run every program thru the reader before running it and make edits which made him very unhappy as "he was the programmer and darn well know what the machine would do" Running parts from inconel and out come the new program along with him and the boss; operator was told to cease editing the "good" programs and run it unedited. SOOO; the operator hit the start button ducked around the side while the machining center proceeded to weld a 2" drill into the inconel part destroying both. Programmer didn't say a word and hurried back to his cubbyhole and the operator who knew his machine was told he could continue pre-readingf and making edits if required.

 

[Jeepnik]

Don't get me started on young engineers. They aren't worth a damn.

Best story I've got was the one that set up two cooling towers and then found out the closest water supply was about a mile away. Worlds most expensive and inefficient air coolers these days. Yep, he still works for them, go figure.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

One of my neighbors years ago had spent a few years as an auto mechanic. He referred to "dungeoneers" quite often!

And a fellow I worked with for a short while told an interesting story on the "phenomenom" as well. He'd been trained as an aircraft mechanic in the Navy, and stayed in the field for a few years after he got out. One day he was telling about working on Lear jets. A friend had flown them for a charter service before being picked up by a major airline, and said they were great to fly, but that was as close to knowing anything about one as I could claim. So I asked him how bad it was to work on Lears.

He answered it was actually quite nice to work on them, and went on to describe a policy Mr. Lear had while he was alive (and Mrs. Lear continued after his death.) His engineers would work for six months in their offices on their computers, drafting boards, etc. As my buddy told me, "That makes your hands pretty soft!" Then they'd take off the white shirts and ties, put on coveralls, and go out on the floor for the next six months to actually work on what they'd been designing.

Buddy said every place that drew blood, or threatened to, when working on it, got "redesigned" quite quickly! The result for the every day mechanics like himself was a beautiful aircraft to work on! Seems like a grand idea for a lot of industries...

Rick C

 

[JFB]

I straddle the fence on this topic. I have had to following instructions verbatim and I have written them. I can't recall all the incidents.

one I remember was the repair instructions for a damaged 4" threaded casing hole. It required the oversize repair plug be installed with only a pilot hole and after it was welded into the casing, come back to drill and tap it. I questioned why I couldn't tap the plug while it was still in the lathe and was told it had to be done as written.

several months later I visited the factory and talked to the Engineer that provided the repair procedure. He recalled my chain of communication asking how would the factory make such a repair. He then added those instructions were if the casing was still in the manufactoring jig where the original drill and tap was performed, if he had to do it in the field, he would tap it while in the lathe.

 

[blackhawknj]

In WWII there were numerous complains that the M4 Sherman and its original 75MM was not capable of taking out most German tanks and its 76MM replacement not much better, the Ordnance "experts" Stateside insisted it was fine.
In the Navy, endless complains that the Mark 14 torpedo was not function properly, too many duds. Charles "Swede" Mommsen fired torpedoes till he got a dud, then recovered the dud and examined to find the cause. yes, it was hazardous but he found the problem and the solution.

 

[427mach1]

As an engineer with close to 30 years of experience, I can agree with a lot of what has been said. The best engineers are those that have some sort of hands-on experience, be it on production floor, woodworking, auto mechanics, electronics repair, machining, reloading/shooting/gunsmithing, etc. Since day one, I have relied heavily on the machinists and aerospace model builders that I have worked with. Never be afraid to ask their opinion, how something might be done better, easier, or more efficiently. In return, they often come to me to ask questions, run some calculations, or seek advice on parts they are working on. Too many people are too easily offended if you even suggest their design could be improved.

 

[Dan in MI]

Years ago I was tasked with helping a higher educated, but much less seniority, engineer with some testing in a dyno lab. (I have ten years of dyno lab time as a tech) We had a packed two week schedule of testing to run. Monday Mr Book engineer walked into the cell and said "We're gonna, xxx and you 're gonna yyy blah, blah blah...." I saw the TILT Light go off in the cell tech's eyes and it wasn't 20 minutes before the cell was "down" for an issue. It didn't come back up until after lunch technically putting us a day behind schedule. Old Junior was fuming.

Once we left the lab I suggested that on Tuesday morning he take his time and work on making a schedule to cover lost time and I would get the cell ready for when he showed up with the schedule. Of course that was a ruse to keep him out of the cell first thing in the morning. Tuesday I get in the lab an hour early with a dozen donuts and our original schedule. The Tech looks at me with an evil eye and says, "Thanks for the donuts but I don't eat them." I said fine share them with the rest of the guys. He says "Thanks" and then asks "where's junior?" I said "don't worry about him he'll be here in a bit. I flipped out the schedule and said this is what we have to do. What's the best way to crank out all these tests and not miss our deadline?' He looked at it for about five minutes and set us up to get back on schedule and out two days early in a much less back breaking way for him.

Junior shows up all wound up because it's gonna be tight just as we were finishing up. He aks what are looking at? we show him and he just says "can you really do that?" I had to herd him out of the cell a couple times to explain that the tech KNOWS what he is doing and just relax. We got the testing done, but Junior did NOT learn the lesson. His lab times we always delayed for some reason.


I've worked with all kinds of engineers and the ones that don't have hands on hobby are generally useless. Now there are a few like that that know their limitations and stop and wait for the tech to fix/set up/ run whatever it is they are stuck on. The problem is they may wait a day and half to replace a fuse.

 

[427mach1]

The problem is they may wait a day and half to replace a fuse.

You have no problem with a tech that intentionally sabotages the schedule?

 

[Dan in MI]

One _ I think you are mixing examples. The fuse quote is related to book guys that just do not even touch the car if something goes down. I give them props for not screwing it up worse, but there has to be a little hands on too.


Regarding the cell going "down." Having worked both sides. I honestly did not have an issue with how that test sequence went down. I saw it coming. You don't go into to a test cell demanding an unrealistic schedule when you have no clue how the tests are run or the sequences to follow. You go in and talk to the operator and work as a team. They know their job. They also are charged with protecting the equipment. His initial schedule was completely sequenced wrong. They way he had it set up required more tests and more car installs and removals than required to get the job done. This testing sequence has a long proven method that minimizes cell down time and car swaps, but he knew better. The cell tech knew better too. Cell time is always at a premium so wasted time is bad for everyone.


You've reminded me of another example that I had as a cell operator. Another brand new engineer. We had a test that uses the dyno only called a no load spin (NLS) for testing a trans part. You run the test piece at the engine red line using a dyno instead of an engine. Mr new guy told ne he wanted to run the NLS on an engine. I told him that it isn't done that way because the engine won't hold up. He countered that he was running at red line the engine will be fine it is built to run to that speed. We went back and forth for a day and a half as I was getting the test ready. After another 1/2 hour of back and forth with me trying multiple ways to show him why it wouldn't work I looked at him and said I will run it with an engine if you do this tomorrow on the way to work.

Start your car. Leave it in park and push the throttle to floor and hold it for ten minutes. "NO WAY THAT WILL BLOW UP MY CAR!!!" I looked at him and said "think about it a minute. You want me to do that for 48 HOURS." Unlike Junior above he learned and worked well with the operators and learned the how's and why's of testing.

 

[Mobuck]

On the other hand, being able to reading technical drawings has saved a lot of time occasionally. I was sitting in the PO one day watching the guys at the fire house trying to figure out a problem with one of the pumps on the #1 truck. I walked over and asked about the difficulty. Fire Chief hands me a 5# repair manual and asked how to get the back off the pump w/o tearing the truck completely down. I studied the drawings a few minutes and determined that the final assembly bolt could be accessed through the inlet port allowing the pump to be dismantled in place while only removing the front bumper. When the Chief asked how I could figure that out, I told him I used to make those sort of drawings-they had no idea.

 

[vortecMax]

After 12 yrs building GM cars I stil say if the engineers spent a couple days on the line, those cars would go together much easier.

 

[blackhawknj]

I recall a news back story back in 1980 which said much of the problem in educationg engineers and other technical people was that they were taught by theoreticians rather than problem solvers.
There is the story of Thomas Edison and the bright young engineer. Edison asked him to determine the volume of a light bulb. The young man went to work, after a week or so Edison asked him how he was progressing. The obviously harried engineer replied that he was still working on it, whereupon Edison told to him to fill the light bulb with water, then measure it.

 

[toysoldier]

I worked at a hospital that built a whole new wing for O.R., Radiology, and Labor & Delivery. Opening was delayed by the need to replace a lot of the air handling installation. Some time later, I was taking care of a patien who had worked on the installation. "We told that Chinese mechanical engineer that the elbows were too small" he said.

Architects can be the same way. There was a design for a house of worship in Independence, MO that featured a a roof that spiraled up, with a staind-glass insert in the spiral. It was to be constructed with steel pipe. Haven Steel Co. in KC got the contract for the structural members. My father (a civil engineer with construction and welding experience) was head of the Haven drafting department. He saw that the design called for a great many non-standard lengths and fittings, which would be very expensive. He redesigned it to do the same thing with mostly standard parts. The architect got a design award.

 

[Number9]

Engineers need "hands on training"...
or be willing to respect someone's ability with years experience with "hands on"!

 

[Colonialgirl]

Interesting Subject;
I know for instance on my Volvo that to replace the heater core, the "BOOK" calls for the dash to be substantially dismantled;about a 6 to 8 hour job. However the shortcut is to remove the sections under the dash, and the two side panels of the center console and VIOLA !! there is the heater core and its mounting screws. Sure it involves a little laying on the floor and twisting here and there BUT in less than 2 hours, you have the OLD core out and the New one back into place and all the panels remounted.
Gotta love them Ingeneers !!

 

[contender]

If all manufacturers took the approach to building stuff the way it was done with the Lear's (described above) we'd have a lot less headaches.
And as 427mach1 has stated, a GOOD engineer will learn from the techs & listen to the ones with field experience.

It all comes down to a few things.
A company that wants to build something as cheap as it can, all while making the best profit they can.
Next, if they design stuff to where you spend a lot more money on repairs & parts through them, you boost their profits.
Next, you have people with college degrees, who have never actually gotten their hands dirty or worked on the very stuff they design & build. Often, we would have called these types "nerds" in high school. They can go to school & do wonders with math & science, but have no field experience or common sense. They get their degrees, get hired by a company making a lot more than the techs & working class guys & feel as if THEY know better than anybody else how to do anything. And as noted above, they do not, or are not willing to learn from those "junior" to them.

Kinda like the military. You get a guy, with a college degree, who goes through basic, then OCS, and gets a commission as an officer. Yet, when assigned to a unit, he fails to learn from the crusty old E6 or E-7 who has a long history of knowledge on how to run an outfit.

Miss Penny used to work in a factory that made automotive carpet for the manufacturers. She used to HATE the engineers. She still cusses them quite a bit. So, she understands my feelings when I start cussing when I work on our vehicles.

 

[stevemb]

We have a young engineer working with us now. He shows great promise and we hope he stays at our facility. The 5-6 previous we were glad to see go, sadly they go up, get promoted, do more damage,etc..

 

[Colonialgirl]

I only met ONE lieutenant in the Army that was willing to listen and learn from the old Sgts and even from me a Spec 4;
Surprisingly, he was a school teacher from Santa Cruz, CA and an OCS grad.

 

[427mach1]

For those of you who can't stand engineers, as a show of your distaste for our profession, I would suggest that you stop using anything that was ever designed by an engineer. Stop driving your car and don't get on another airplane. Stop shooting your Rugers, turn off the air conditioner, get rid of your refrigerator, your stove, your microwave, and your television, cut the electrical power to your home, no more running water or flushing toilets, etc. etc. etc. Say what you want about engineers, your life is MUCH improved because of our contribution to society. :mrgreen:

 

[Bull Barrel]

And the next time you complain about how long it takes and how much it costs to repair a simple item, look in the mirror.

 

[Fox Mike]

For those of you who can't stand engineers, as a show of your distaste for our profession, I would suggest that you stop using anything that was ever designed by an engineer. Stop driving your car and don't get on another airplane. Stop shooting your Rugers, turn off the air conditioner, get rid of your refrigerator, your stove, your microwave, and your television, cut the electrical power to your home, no more running water or flushing toilets, etc. etc. etc. Say what you want about engineers, your life is MUCH improved because of our contribution to society. :mrgreen:

Not a question of liking or disliking engineers. It is just that all I have ever have the displeasure of attempting to work with have NO hands on experience to back up their "book learnin" and are not willing to listen to the guy that operates/repairs the item. In many places an engineer is responsible for one item. Another for another. Now the two items need to integrated into ONE area. Neither seems to understand that if either of the items need removal or repair that someone has to have unrestricted access to EACH item. Seems that one desk never speaks to the next. Having an engineering degree does NOT make one infallible.

 

[Rick Courtright]

For those of you who can't stand engineers, as a show of your distaste for our profession, I would suggest that you stop using anything that was ever designed by an engineer.

Hi,

Can't say I dislike engineers: the whole family's had plenty of 'em. Both "real" ones, who drive trains, and all the other kind!

It looks to me like it's the "dungeoneering" approach that seems to be bothering most of the folks here. The problems working on something that the guy who drew it up has never even touched, and the arrogance of so many of the kinds of engineers who don't drive the trains, seem to be the crux of the matter.

Most of the family's engineers have been "old school" where they were taught both WHAT to do and HOW to do it, and the "how" includes working with everybody from ground level to the top. Isolation in their offices/drafting rooms/cubicles wasn't part of the program. The old adage that the non-coms run the army holds true in a lot of manufacturing, and was mentioned here. And at least some of the old timers could laugh at the engineering maxim "Well, it worked on paper!" when it didn't work in the field, take the "non-coms'" suggestions, then go back and fix it without getting too rattled that their self-esteem had been challenged.

One of the questions that rattles around in my head every so often is "Do we even have any of those guys left?" Airplanes were mentioned: is there a Jack Northrop out there anywhere today? It's rumored he once took a blank piece of paper, and 30 or 60 days later, had a flying prototype on the tarmac. I tend to think that's a bit of an embellishment, perpetuated by friends who worked their whole lives for Northrop, but it's not an impossibility considering the man's abilities! How big a piece of the plane does any individual engineer design these days?

And could he do the job with that same blank piece of paper? Not likely, even if he tried! Today we've got computers to help us do incredible things in engineering, and they can help us make better products, faster and cheaper than ever before, IF used properly. But what's inside the computer? It's the collected knowledge of 10s of 1000s of good minds that came before, and what a tremendous asset that is! Yet it can never replace the actual human touch, which is where most of us come in, trying to work on whatever it is we're working on, not just cars.

It seems to me the old idea that the most elegant engineering solution is the simplest is still quite valid. I suppose it equates to the KISS ("Keep It Short And Simple", with variants) theory. Then there's the "myth of Teutonic engineering" as I've often called it which says "If everyone else can do it with four bolts, we'll figure a way to use 20. And when it doesn't work as well, we'll just blame the problem on operator error." While the Germans have had that down to a fine art for decades, they're not alone in today's world. It's the antithesis of the KISS theory. And it seems to me that KISS is a lot easier to apply when one has his own hands on the product as much as on the keyboard. Would that we could clone Mr. Lear?

Rick C

 

[427mach1]

Most of the family's engineers have been "old school" where they were taught both WHAT to do and HOW to do it, and the "how" includes working with everybody from ground level to the top. Isolation in their offices/drafting rooms/cubicles wasn't part of the program.

One of the questions that rattles around in my head every so often is "Do we even have any of those guys left?" Airplanes were mentioned: is there a Jack Northrop out there anywhere today? It's rumored he once took a blank piece of paper, and 30 or 60 days later, had a flying prototype on the tarmac. I tend to think that's a bit of an embellishment, perpetuated by friends who worked their whole lives for Northrop, but it's not an impossibility considering the man's abilities! How big a piece of the plane does any individual engineer design these days?

Rick C

Do we have any of those guys left? That's not a fair question unless you want airplanes using 1940's technology! Yes, the planes of of the 1940's era might have been designed in a few months under the "wartime rush" but I guarantee all the drawings were not produced by Jack himself. Kelly Johnson, maybe..... :wink: . The planes today are just a wee bit more complicated and we have a lot more regulations on what we can do, how we can do it, how thoroughly it must be tested, how it has to be documented, and we can't lose any test pilots during the flight test. If you have ever been to Edwards Air Force Base, the streets are named after dead test pilots. Do you think that would be acceptable today?

My company used to have the new engineers work on the factory floor, too. Wanna know why they don't do it anymore? The union complained that they were eliminating union jobs, grievances were filed, and the practice was stopped. In my opinion, that was a mistake; all new engineers should have to learn the ins and outs of the production line.

 

[RoninPA]

We always had a saying "Who's the most dangerous person in the world"? Answer: and engineer with a wrench in his hand.

When I was in the USAF, the GE engine people working at the engine shop told me that they were not allowed to design a thing when they first came to work for GE. They were hired and immediately shipped off to an AF base to work in the engine shop doing everything that the engine troops did, remove engines, install engines, overhaul engines, sweep and mop the floors (if you look at most engine shops, the floor is a very light color to reflect light too the underside of the engine while it is in its cradle making it easier to see things). They had to strictly follow the same tech manuals that the engine troops used, no short cuts because they were "engineers" Once they had a good amount of time working the engines, then they went back to GE to be trained as jet engine engineers.

 

[toysoldier]

Seems that one desk never speaks to the next. Having an engineering degree does NOT make one infallible.

When design was begun on the Iowa-class battleships, one team was working on hull design, another on the turrets. Someone just happened to get a look at both specs, and found that they were basing their designs on different sized turret rings. :shock: The problem was corrected before the designs were too advanced.

 

[blackhawknj]

Year ago i was going out with a nursing student. The first year students work in the ICU, they are told THIS is what nursing is all about. If you can't handle THIS, nursing is NOT for YOU.
In the first designs of the M4 Sherman tank, the front hatches were too small, the designers seems to think they were just for ventilation and so the driver could look around, they were told, redesign them so the crewman can get OUT of them

 

[gtxmonte]

We recently had a meeting at a plant I am affiliated with recently. The purpose was to "streamline" and "modernize" and I am sure most know that is code for "F everything up".........LOL!!!............Anyway, my contemporaries, I shudder when I call them that, were in a dilemma about how to improve an area of machining. After listening to these two fairly fresh out of school guys debate a while, I said "you two, come with me". We walked out in the plant to area in question. I told them, "see that guy, his name is Tim, he has been running THAT machine, is THIS plant for 20 years. If you want to know how the process can be better, ask HIM".................I can only hope it has some impact on them.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Do we have any of those guys left? That's not a fair question unless you want airplanes using 1940's technology! Yes, the planes of of the 1940's era might have been designed in a few months under the "wartime rush" but I guarantee all the drawings were not produced by Jack himself. Kelly Johnson, maybe..... :wink:

Hi,

Is there something wrong with 1940s technology? Next time a multi-billion dollar B-2 flies over, look up and see if the ghost of Jack Northrop isn't waving down at you! Or, at the next air show where one's flying, look up at a P-38 and think about how many slide rules Kelly Johnson might have worn out in his career.

As much as we love to tout technology as some almost mystical thing, today it's often not a case of doing a new job, but doing the same old one in new ways. Oh, wait, nothing's changed: Og designing a stone arrowhead in his cave after work one evening, which was harder and sharper than that piece of bone he'd been using all day, was doing the very same thing, wasn't he? Then or now, some new ways are better, some aren't... some of you shoot some pretty "hi-tech" arrowheads today, but if push came to shove, Og's 10,000 year old technology will still kill dinner, maybe even a spare mastodon if somebody manages to clone one!

So I see nothing unfair about my question... somebody had an idea, then used it to design a ball and got it rolling, others just keep pushing it. Personally, I think the credit for being the "better" engineer should go to the first guy! History seems to agree to some extent: Thomas Edison will forever be remembered as the inventor of the light bulb. Does anyone know the name of the guy who made the first of these LED bulbs I just put in the desk lamps?

Rick C