Dirty Powder?

[patriker]

I just started reloading , and after some research, decided to start out with one powder that I could use for several calibers. I chose Bullseye because it is fast burning and would work well in the short barreled .380 and 9MM. I also would use it in the Security Six ( 4" ).

Since my indoor range will not allow magnum loads, I have been loading .38's to use in the .357. After 50 rounds, the gun is very dirty on the outside,as well as inside ( interestingly, inside the barrel is not bad) . I did not shoot this gun very often, and when I did, it was with factory .357 ammo, so I really don't remember if it happened with factory loads.

The gun is ex-le, so was carried more than shot, and is very good condition.

I am loading Winchester Nickel plated brass ( makes me feel like the lone ranger ) with 3.2 grains of Bullseye and Hornady 158 grain lead SWC. The primers are CCI Small Pistol Ptimers.

I seat the bullets and crimp in two separate operations. The crimp is done using the Lee factory crimp die, and just enough crimp to remove the flare and securely hold the bullet.

I hope I have given enough information.

Can someone tell me if I am doing something wrong ( wrong powder , too light a load, too heavy a load ) or is this something that happens when firing 38's from a .357 ?

 

[patriker]

Forgot to mention - it smokes really bad - almost like a black powder gun.

 

[Amistad]

Welcome to the forum, patriker.

I recently traded for a stainless Security Six with 2 3/4" bbl. I am really loving this very clean, fun-to-shoot gun. All that I've shot through it thus far have been some .38 Special 148 gr DEWC, powered by 3.1 gr of W231. I'll be headed to the range tomorrow morning. I'll go out there in a moment and load up a box using Bullseye (charge weight of 2.8 gr), and will post back as to my findings...

Happy shooting!

Later edit: Well, it would help if I could read. I see that you're speaking of .357 and I somehow took off on the .38 Special tangent. Oh, well. I'll go ahead and compare Bullseye with W231 in these rounds...

 

[J Miller]

Alliant powders all have a sweet spot where they burn cleaner.
You might try a couple things.
First increase your crimp. I've found fast burning powders such as Bullseye, 231, and others need a good strong, but not excessive crimp, to get a good burn. The crimp slows the bullets movement down enough so the powder ignites good.

Second up your powder charge a tenth of a gr or so and see what happens.

Third make sure you have a good tight neck tension on the bullet. Too loose and you'll get inconsistent ignition and dirty powder burn.

Also in my experience much of the smoke comes from the bullet lube. You might try Berry's or Rainier copper plated bullets if it gets too bad.
Or Speer, or Remington or even Magtech.

Joe

 

[FergusonTO35]

Many shooters say that Bullseye is just flammable dirt. Accurate #2 and #5 are outstanding powders for the .38 and 9X19 and very clean burning. Try 5.6 grains of #5 under a 158 grain lead slug in your .38. 850 fps out of my S&W 10-5, very accurate, and is a standard pressure load to boot!!

 

[Bucks Owin]

Bullseye, Unique, 2400......all doublebase, all "dirty"

JMO.. :wink:

 

[patriker]

Joe
Pardon my ignorance, but is neck tension on the bullet the same as crimp ?

 

[Bucks Owin]

Joe
Pardon my ignorance, but is neck tension on the bullet the same as crimp ?

I'm not Joe, but can tell you that neck tension is the grip of the case on the bullet. It is a function of the resizing process, ie the diameter of the expander stem in the die which brings the case to the correct diameter to grip the bullet tightly after the case is squeezed slightly undersize. A good example are old .45LC dies that size properly for a .454" bullet. A current .45LC bullet of .452" isn't gripped tightly by the case, before crimping. (In fact the bullet is often a slip fit just with fingers). A tight crimp helps "some" with bullet grip but when overdone can actually loosen the grip by buckling the case outwards slightly even if not readily seen. This occurs when you really lean on the press handle trying to get a super tight crimp..(Mostly with jacketed bullets though)..

Hope my explanation is decipherable... :wink:

 

[mikld]

I too, would suggest a good roll crimp (I don't like Lee FCDs in revolvers). I used to shoot a LOT of 38 Specials and Bullseye was the go to powder for me. I shot mostly lead 158 SWCs (up to 3.5 gr. BE; HOT) and 148 DEWCs (3.3gr. BE) and don't remember any excessive "dirtyness"...

 

[J Miller]

Joe
Pardon my ignorance, but is neck tension on the bullet the same as crimp ?

Although FergusonTO35, Bucks Owin and I DISagree about Alliant powders being dirty Bucks has the neck tension explanation down pat. Very good.

When I mentioned bullet lube being the cause of the smoke and much of the dirtiness I meant it. Years ago I loaded up numerous 3# coffee cans (remember coffee cans) full of 38 spcl ammo. The load was 4.3grs of Winchester 231 under a 158gr Hornady lead bullet.
A friend an I took our revolvers out to the desert east of Phoenix and shot up a bunch of that ammo. When we got done his blued S&W Mdl 15 and my Colt Python were grey black and when they cooled off, the cylinders on both were gummed up and wouldn't turn. Our hands were black with soot.

I later tried the same load with cast bullets which had a different lube and the problem was gone. That is why I suggested trying another brand of bullets.

Joe

 

[Bucks Owin]

Joe
Pardon my ignorance, but is neck tension on the bullet the same as crimp ?

Although FergusonTO35, Bucks Owin and I DISagree about Alliant powders being dirty Bucks has the neck tension explanation down pat. Very good.

When I mentioned bullet lube being the cause of the smoke and much of the dirtiness I meant it. Years ago I loaded up numerous 3# coffee cans (remember coffee cans) full of 38 spcl ammo. The load was 4.3grs of Winchester 231 under a 158gr Hornady lead bullet.
A friend an I took our revolvers out to the desert east of Phoenix and shot up a bunch of that ammo. When we got done his blued S&W Mdl 15 and my Colt Python were grey black and when they cooled off, the cylinders on both were gummed up and wouldn't turn. Our hands were black with soot.

I later tried the same load with cast bullets which had a different lube and the problem was gone. That is why I suggested trying another brand of bullets.

Joe

Joe, I have shot a few loads with 2400 that weren't especially dirty, but couldn't get W296 velocity so...

You may be right regarding the lube, I've kinda wandered around with various brews/brands. My old 450 is loaded with LBT now, hope that's the one to stick with... :wink:

(Glad my explanation on neck tension was understandable.. :lol: )

 

[patriker]

Thanks for the replies.
Since I still have close to a pound of powder left but only about 150 bullets, I guess I will try a different brand of cast bullet. This is just for paper targets, so was thinking about 145 gr wc ? Any recommendations as to brand ?

I will also try a tighter roll crimp. There seems to be a good fit of bullet to case .

 

[WESHOOT2]

W231 (or for more velocity, Power Pistol).

Penn Bullets.

Redding Profile Crimp Die for revolver, LEE Carbide Factory Crimp Die for autoloader.

 

[patriker]

I just ordered 100pcs of 148 gr wadcutters from Dardas cast bullets to try out. I read good things about their products, and when I called and spoke to Matt, he was very helpful. If they work out, I will be ordering in bulk.

Will post results later.

 

[MidLife]

I removed the carbide sizing ring from my Lee factory crimp die when using lead bullets. The sizing ring can swage down the lead bullet (since it is slightly oversize diameter) and change the neck tension and obturation charateristics. This effect is less on jacketed bullets, so, I leave the sizing ring intact for the FCD for those. (I have two four die sets for 38/357. One with the sizing ring and one without on the FCD).

The Hornady 158 are usually swaged, not cast, (you may want to check, but the ones I have are swaged, and have a checkered bearing surface that holds the lube. Typically, cast bullets will have the lube grove(s). So, the Hornady may smoke differently, somewhat.

 

[patriker]

You are correct. The Hornady bullets are as you described.

Just out of curiosity, how did you get the ring out of the FCD? It looks like that could be a bear. I don't guess that that operation is reversible ?

 

[MidLife]

No, the process is not reversible, and, you can easily damage your die if not done correctly. I placed a spent casing in the die and drove out the ring with a steel punch sized just smaller than the case. PROTECT the threads of the die or you will ruin it.

 

[Desertdog]

I agree with using AA#2 and AA#5....way cleaner...I use them both quite often...and in Hodgdon...go with Titegroup...also cleaner.

 

[volshooter]

I love Bullseye............more bag for the buck!
I use a heavy roll crimp for .38's.